BlightyMatt:

Bingo!....with the Vietnam comment.

I felt this when I visited....Vietnam is nobody's lapdog!

They don't have the same butt-hurt inferiority complex that China seems to have. Perhaps this comes from beating the Chinese, resisting the Japs, mashing the French paras at D.B.P and then outlasting the worlds major superpower, liberating Cambodia from Pol Pot and his nutters and then beating the Chinese again!

MissA:

Yep, Vietnam still has its issues but it's a lot more positive place to be.

expatlife26:

I think that's a really good analysis.

China definitely "grew up" as a culture as the only game in town for regional powers. Have this sense of we get our way because of the divine right of our strength. 

Europe was different because it was split up. I feel like at any given time in post-classical europe there were at least 3-4 first rate power states. England, Spain, France, Germany/Austria and Russia...others at diferent times too. So even the most proud Frenchman had to concede that there were in fact Germans around. About as many of them or more as frenchmen and of roughly equal power. Same as england and spain. Nobody in any of these countries could really believe that they are the center of the universe or could dictate terms to all the others unilaterally. France and Germany both tried at different times and failed in the end. So they had to compete qualitatively with each other for an edge.

China never really had to do that. Their national pride isn't as a scrappy underdog or sophisticated fighter who punches above their weight. Just more that they are the biggest and the center of the universe.

It's hard for them to rationalize the difference between the taught belief that they are the best, the best for some vague reason, with the observation that no, they are not the best. That small islands with qualitiative superiority can dominate them under the right circumstances. That other nations are richer, more sophisticated and stronger.

So they gotta go back to thinking that dumb things they do are superior. Yeah you guys make more money and have a higher quality of life. But we have Chinese culture. We drink hot water and tiger bones.

gregorsamsa:

I've noticed that, too.  I've lived here off and on for the past six years, and for the most part I've had quite a positive experience.   I try to be kind and treat everyone with respect, and I've never been involved in any kind of public altercations back home... but recently I've come across some definitely hostile behavior here in Hangzhou.  The nasty faces they pull at me when I'm just reading a book on the subway, as if my very presence there is somehow unbearable to them,  .and  that tssk.. it really pisses me off.  I've had people shout SHA BI LAOWAI at me in the street... and my girlfriend and I can hardly bear going out in public together with all the tsssk... and nasty glares + harassment.  I'm finding it more and more difficult to just ignore them.  But "if you don't like China, go home", right?

Even though I have a great job here with an American company, I've decided to jump ship and get out before I end up punching someone in the face.  It's this awful mixture of ignorance and arrogance that produced a toxic breed of person.  Of course, this is nothing new.  It has been a diseased society for a very long time.  But now it's time for us laowai to get out, before everything goes south.   It's all very disappointing as someone who has invested time and money here, to just pack up and leave to start again at home.  But it's becoming unbearable. "If you don't like China, go home!" .... well, goodbye, China, and good riddance!

DaphneNJ:

That Tsssk sound has caused me to have many violent fantasies. I told my husband I'm going take a Krav Maga class before our next trip to China. The first piece of trash who tssks at me will be taught a lesson.

ScotsAlan:

I used to wonder about the spitting on the ground as you walk past.

Quinn68:

I'm tired of people telling me that the nongs spitting on the ground is just a normal habit that coincidentally happens as I walk past, because I know damn well it isn't. Sometimes they can't spit anything, no matter how hard they try, since they never had to spit in the first place.

Shining_brow:

I'm clearly a foreigner - from my skin colour to my hair... and yet, in the 6 years I've been in this country, I cannot recall a single incident in which I felt I was being personally attacked because my foreigner-ness! (yes, for other things - like making nongs lose face, or being hostile towards some wanker who knows he's done something wrong - and they KNOW it's wrong!!!)

Of those 6 years, I've spent the last 4 in Hangzhou - and never had the issues you guys talk of!

And, before you say it.. yes, I have sufficient Chinese to know when I'm being talked about!

Perhaps it's just a part of where I live... I'm in the 'higher education zone' - about 6 universities, and the best high school in the province... maybe they breed them different out here??

(NB: this does not include 'laowai' or 'waiguoren' comments - which I take as ignorance rather than 'attack'. It also doesn't include being ripped off because I'm a foreigner - I'm talking the idea of 'we really don't want you in our country, and I'm going to make it obvious')

Lord_hanson:

Cindy, if that is true why do Chinese people not mind when other Chinese break the law? Why do Chinese people call Chinese women with foreign men traitors or whores? Why do they compare mixed race children to mongrol dogs? From my experience Chinese people dislike black people who have visas too.

gregorsamsa:

Cindy, perhaps you and other English-speaking, educated Chinese people treat foreigners with due respect, or at least pay no attention to us, as we are all simply human beings on the planet Earth, however in my experience 95% of Chinese people treat foreigners as if we are not human beings in the same way Chinese people are, pointing and laughing like hyenas in the street, making snide comments, staring as if we are animals incapable of producing a human response such as embarrassment, frustration, sensitivity to gawking and hurtful or alienating treatment.  It is the "us and them" mentality that makes Chinese people socially unfit to be world citizens.   There is the assumption that we don't understand Chinese culture, as if it is so intricate and nuanced that the Western mind is incapable of grasping what it means to be Chinese.  Perhaps this is true.  Even though I speak Chinese fluently, I still have a hard time understanding the Chinese psyche and what reason these people have to mindfully avoid any sense of kindness, spiritual enlightenment or understanding of how we should treat our fellow human beings.  I was raised to be kind and thoughtful, and to treat others the way I want to be treated.  This is basic human decency.  I have seen so much senseless cruelty during my stay here that I have almost lost hope for this society entirely.

cindyfromhaha:

And those people around me, though not well educated, still treat foreigners nice, but sometimes they just feel curious as  you guys look much different from us.

There may be some out there who do not treat forefingers unkindly, and fairly enough they also treat Chinese badly. It's their nature. So when you come across such persons, just ignore them, as if they were non-existing.

Also, admittedly, many people break the laws, including Chinese. Of course, those  Chinese who break the law are punished the same way. But it is still shocking to see some crimes committed by the black even in the daytime.

Plus, it is strange as foreigners are treated even better than Chinese when they need help from the police. No kidding, it is true here.

cindyfromhaha:

Lord-hanson,

From your comment, I can tell you have been treated unfairly. So sorry about it. There is some truth in what you are writing but not all.

We do care when the Chinese break the law. No one wants to live with criminals. It's frightening and scary. That why we all want the society to be free from crimes so we can live in safety.

As the girls with a foreigners husband or boyfriend are called traitors or whores, I hate to admit half of the times the case is true, do you wonder why? As some of the girls, though not all, just want money and visa from the foreigners and can date one after another. Yeah, there are many girls who just falling in love with forefingers and get married and still get blessed by the Chinese around them. Now more and more people are open to international marriage, yet some can still not accept it.

Black people with good manners are welcome. I can still remember two black gorgeous ladies wandering in the university, and still impressed by the two black young men on the bus. Not only me, but also people around me. I can recall some moments when foreigners, black and white, do something good, people will say they are well educated and environmentally aware, and we will also feel ashamed that we normally don't do it.

expatlife26:

hi cindy, I am really glad you are participating in this discussion and giving us your perspective. I agree with many of your points about how many locals, especially ones who have their lives in order, simply don't care either way about westerners because we are not the center of the universe in China. Totally agree with you on that statement.

I know that a lot of what bothers western people here is just curiousity, but that curiosity can be very obtrusive. I work hard to maintain a high degree of excellence in my life, and that work is not so uneducated people can shout 'hello' at me or otherwise invade my personal space. It's just frustrating. I do not bother them, they should not bother me.

Let me give you an example, I am curious about many things which I have the self control not to act on, if I see a beautiful russian woman on the subway I will not simply ask her to take her clothes off because I am curious what she looks like under them. I was raised better than to insult someone in that way...even if I AM curious, I display self-control like a civilized adult. If afterwards she went online and complained about this awful man on the subway, no one should excuse such behavior by saying "But he was just curious!"

I understand that these people we are complaining about are mostly just curious, not hostile, but that curiousity by itself is also disrespectful in the same way as my example. If the stranger who would ask me my salary saw a local man getting into a BMW, would they go and ask him what his salary his? Of course not, so such local people know that is rude behavior, but lack the ability or concern to understand that type of rudeness also applies when asking such questions to non-local people.

They can't say "I was only curious!" when a western person is upset at their invasion of privacy, or else I could say that woman would be wrong to be upset with me in my example. 

I also do however agree with you that local people are probably punished MORE for things than westerners. I believe that we probably get away with a lot more than a local of similar social status could.

Shining_brow:

Some will break the law, and nothing will happen to them.

Other times, and other places, they can break the law, and have the worst time of their life.

And for the same offence!

Sometimes the foreigner will get lots of help and protection... at other times they will bear the brunt and blame for everything wrong.

However, it's rare to be considered an 'equal'.And not be under some sort of scrutiny.