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Q: Is Chinese thinking to blame or is it Communist government thinking?
The idea to force the people to do what you wish is a foolish idea, I've always saw as part of Chinese thinking. But, I've been watching a very interesting documentary. Cold war season 1 (I recommend to anyone) It seems to be a Communist practice.
This is both Chinese people's and the governments thinking, of course. Was not their government born from it's people? Was not Mao and his crew Chinese people? Communism was born from a country of poor farmers, defeated and dejected. They needed someone to tell them what to do. We all do. Cross the Pacific and look at a Presidential candidate who says "only I" can fix your problems. Only I know the answers. And people are eating it up like popcorn. They want someone to tell them that. Even the lies they want to believe. Because that is people's thinking.
ScotsAlan:
Even worse Xin. The supporters of the twit are already lining up his daughter or son as the future saviours. It's like reading a 2000 year old book that says the Messiah will solve all problems. There are even calls for Michelle Obama to try for office since she made a speech at the weekend. People want a saviour. And the people who vote for the saviour hate the fact that China's plan, the commie plan, is (at the moment) working. Infrastructure, education, and even innovation.
I always struggle to understand why many people consider anything other than democratic capitalist systems to be coercive and "bad for the people".
I genuinely believe it is a result of subliminal brainwashing. Yup. I think every government system is guilty of this.
Just because things are different in different regimes does not mean they are bad. In my opinion it is just down to change management within yourself, and being able to admit to the bad in the system you hail from yourself.
As an example. Of all the Chinese citizens I know who have moved to the west ( mostly women married to westerners), not one has exclaimed their excitement at being able to vote when they get their citizenship.
That example is on an individual basis, and yup, I accept that your average Chinese citizen moving to the west might have been "conditioned" not to find voting exciting. However, western nations always suggest that Chinese nationals are crying out for democracy. You just need to read the BBC news to see that.
Communist systems are famous of course for recruiting "mob rule" to enforce their ideals. I don't see much of that going on here, apart from the Japanese protests a few years ago.
Is this "mob rule" being used anywhere in the west? Has it ever been used?
What about the fuss over Colin Kaepernick not standing for the national anthem before he plays a football game. What a load of hysteria over nothing. But who is fueling it? And it's escalating. Last week a pastor in Louisiana suggested anyone not standing to sing the anthem should line themselves up along the fence to be shot. Nobody seems to trying to stop this snowball of nationalistic frenzy.
Forcing others to do as the regime demands is not only a communist thing. Every nation does it.
Almost every religion does it too.
Ever had a preacher try to get you to do what he wants?
Ha ha. I know I am going to hell. Because I saw Pat Robertson on Christian Broadcasting Network. And he said I would go to hell unless I donated 10 bucks towards his new private jet 
Englteachted:
Tell that to the Germans who lived under Communist rule in Berlin.
Englteachted:
As an example. Of all the Chinese citizens I know who have moved to the west ( mostly women married to westerners), not one has exclaimed their excitement at being able to vote when they get their citizenship.
But they love having worker's rights and not being harassed without recourse
ScotsAlan:
Quote " But they love having worker's rights and not being harassed without recourse".
Erm, not exactly. Most seem to do everything they can to avoid Government intervention. They embark upon grey area routes of business. Such as parallel trading back to China for example. Milk powder, face cream. But I admit, my experience of Chinese migrants to the west is limited to women who have married relatively rich western men. I have never come across the people smuggled in containers.
Maybe they are conditioned to not trust Government, no matter if western or eastern.
Politically, their closest cousin on the world stage might be the 2nd amendment " Obama is not an American and he is a Muslim" crowd.
They have lots in common when you think about it.
Number one: " Fuck everyone else, I get what I want"
Number two: " Fuck the Government, it's my money"
Number three: " Vote! What the fuck for? It's fixed anyway"
Number four : " Let the poor starve. It's their fucking fault they are poor".
Number five: " Don't insult my country, you don't understand it... OK !!! "
Ha ha. Sorry. Derailed.
Workers rights?
I work on a Chinese contract. Many of the rights are better here than in the UK. Many of the UK rights are better than in China.
Workers rights tend to be a left wing thing. The right wing don't want workers rights. They are so embroiled in this " God gave me the right" entitlement, that they consider every dime they get as a divine intervention to justify their claim of superiority.
A right winger going on about workers rights..... ha ha ha ha :-)
ScotsAlan:
Quote " Tell that to the Germans who lived under Communist rule in Berlin."
From memory, this was decided at the Yalta Conference. I might be wrong, but as a Brit I have a good statistical change of being more correct than you. I stand to be corrected.
ScotsAlan:
Quote " So forcing people to do your will is a good thing?"
Me... " Can I have toasted cheese please, and a cup of tea?"
You. " Can I have toasted cheese please, and a cup of coffee?"
Me.. "Oh. Coffee sounds good. Me too"
You. " Fucking libtards."
Englteachted:
Scots: You're a perfect example of what's wrong with liberals today.
Shining stated liberals forced great progress but he neglected the fact that liberalism today is nothing like what it was before. Back then liberals stood up, sacrificed for their beliefs. Today, liberals are lead by hollywood whores who kiss China's ass despite China's treatment of gays, women, media censorship. They use excuses to simply be apologists. They tolerate muslim countries extreme barbaric conservativism.
Who said different is always worse or better?
but government, employer controling the lives of people beyond what is reasonable is wrong.
Employers fire wmen who get pregnant off schedule and who refuse abortiuons, isn't abortion supposed to be a choice?
Local family planning officials forcefully abort in order to keep their numbers acceptable. Children born out of wedlock can't get ids, where's your bleeding heart for them? Liberals today are pussies. They can't stand up for their own values.
Englteachted:
Are you that dense? You think Chinese workers have the same protection as you?
xinyuren:
There is a reason why politics and religion are considered to be two sides of the same coin. Because they are.
Democracy: We are all gods. We know what's best for us.
Communism: We are gods: We know what's best for you.
Dictatorship: I am god: I know what's best for you.
All of them are wrong.
xinyuren:
"Scots: You're a perfect example of what's wrong with liberals today."
Pot, kettle, shake hands and acknowledge that you are, in fact, twin brothers. Why do you extremists always have this idea that if everyone followed your thinking, this world's problems will be solved? Are you so disappointed with reality that you prefer to believe a delusion?
Englteachted:
Xinyu: Think a little more deeply. What I'm asking of you and Scots is to simply apply your principles.Don't make excuses when it comes to China. Liberals back in the day stood up for what they believed. They died, went to jail and lost their livelihoods. No one is saying America or any other government is perfect, but trying to paint China as so special case where basic principles can't be applied is cowardly and simple minded.
Let me summarize a quote from Hue Heffner, I believe in personal freedom, political freedom, ...we own our minds ... church or state infringing on that is unacceptable. Why not say wrong is wrong regardless of the country, culture or history/
xinyuren:
Englishted - I am forced to recant my statement that you are not stupid. Stupidity allows hate to cloud good judgement. Stupidity is purposely ignorant. Stupidity opens one's mouth and refuses to shut it. In this respect, you remind me of cub. Here are the things you would know about me if you weren't so stupid.
1. I am neither conservative nor liberal. Both positions are utter rubbish and useless. I've written whole threads about this topic. When you read, do the words go in one ear and out the other? I think so.
2. I am a man of principle. Logic and principles are what guide my life. I have humiliated you more times than once by exposing you on principle (In one ear, out the other).
3. Right is right, wrong is wrong. This is a true statement. Unfortunately this all you see and understand. Poor boy. You are really like a no brain little boy. Black and White. You disappoint me. You are really just one of those stupid, bigoted, hatemongers who follow Donald Trump.
It's called idiosyncrasy.
Look at records from a hundred years ago, two hundred years ago. Look at ancient writings, stories, poetry. You'll see the same stories over and over again, the same things being said over and over again and it'll look just like it's been written yesterday.
The very specific thing about the Chinese idiosyncrasy, is that it is dead set on refusing change, thus repeating the same good things and the same mistakes over and over again.
Most introductory courses on Chinese history proudly boast how clockwork its timeline is.
All dynasties have risen and fallen for roughly the same reasons, with the same protagonists involved: an overlord comes to power, roughen things up, prosperity is acquired on the dead bodies of peons, then things soften, then corruption gets too unaffordable, then weak leaders, then plots, then warlords, then an overlord comes to power, wash, rinse, repeat. Hardly ever any philosophical advance in the process.
So yeah, the current form of Chinese government doesn't really matter. According to their idiosyncratic reading, the current Chinese government is legalist, legalist meaning it follows a hard line with little room for civil liberties.
Where communism has revealed itself useful: stress testing people's passivity when confronted to sheer absurdity. China still counting.
Please give some solid examples of Chinese people being forced to do the governments will. I can think of two offhand: 1. appropriation of property 2. there are strict guidelines for publishing media. Other than that, it seems Chinese people have lots of freedom of movement within the law. The bug in the bed is they have no control over the enactment of laws and policies. This may seem like a big difference, but in most Western countries, common citizens don't have much more control. The main difference is tactics. Since there is no general election in China, the government must exercise some form of behavior control in order to stay in power. This is much like a wife using the power of pursuasion to get her husband to buy her that Gucci bag......while making him think it was his idea! It's an art.
Englteachted:
Hukou restricts movements . Protests against companies that do not pay workers are forcefully broken up by police. More liberal apologizism. Universities can lock students in if there is a threat of protest (I've seen this once)
xinyuren:
So you really mean Chinese citizens being forced to follow their own laws? I think your post needs more clarity. Chinese citizens arent allowed to gather for protest because it is law. Hokou laws are in place for similar reasons: to manage a very large population. Other countries also "force" its citizens to follow laws. Communism, though ineffective, does not have any special agenda to control people. It shares the same ultimate goal as democracy: to guide its people into prosperity.
xinyuren:
"And restricted access to Hong Kong"
I bet you never tried to look at this from another angle. Think pragmatically. Have you ever been to Hong Kong? It's a crowded place isn't it. By pop.density, one of the most crowded places on earth. Now imagine the Chinese having unfettered access to this island. How would the local people's quality of life be affected? Of course it's restricted! The mainlanders would overrun a place that's already overcrowded.
well, neithr.
its yr wrong thinkin'!
Englteachted:
Companies force workers to work overtime? That's my thinking? Is that wrong or right curious dude?
Curiousdude:
yr problm is habit of takin' isolated cases n projectin' thm as the norm.
evn yr usa (or evry country) has some exeptions.. nobody goes around shoutin' 'all americans r.....' etc.
Grow up!
Timtimtim:
It's funny because Ted looks down on curious. Curious just totals him each time, haha.
Curiousdude:
timtimtim, pls notice his ridiculous rants. he looks down on entire civilisatns!
(excptin' ofcourse, his sock puppets downvotin' brigade)
A little bit from column A and a little bit from column B...
I mean, in recent history... not too many countries sent tanks in to slaughter their nation's youth while protesting. I think that is a very ugly stain on the government, that coupled with, the cultural revolution, the great leap forward... et al... just put a ton of fear in the people.
I assume a kind of fear that others (who don't have relatives that experienced this) wouldn't understand.
xinyuren:
You think this reaction by the government is unique and extreme? This is always the reaction from every government that feels it's place is threatened! Do you remember the commie "witch trials" in the United States? Everybody was accusing each other of being secret communists. People were fired from their jobs, blacklisted, persecuted (physically), media outlets railroaded out of business, and why? Because they were suspected of believing in an ideology other than democracy? Sounds familiar? This is how governments roll everywhere.
This is both Chinese people's and the governments thinking, of course. Was not their government born from it's people? Was not Mao and his crew Chinese people? Communism was born from a country of poor farmers, defeated and dejected. They needed someone to tell them what to do. We all do. Cross the Pacific and look at a Presidential candidate who says "only I" can fix your problems. Only I know the answers. And people are eating it up like popcorn. They want someone to tell them that. Even the lies they want to believe. Because that is people's thinking.
ScotsAlan:
Even worse Xin. The supporters of the twit are already lining up his daughter or son as the future saviours. It's like reading a 2000 year old book that says the Messiah will solve all problems. There are even calls for Michelle Obama to try for office since she made a speech at the weekend. People want a saviour. And the people who vote for the saviour hate the fact that China's plan, the commie plan, is (at the moment) working. Infrastructure, education, and even innovation.
