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Sign up with Google Sign up with FacebookQ: A cultural wilderness
Ok before I start I must say this is a BCD for me and that is where it is coming from. Apologies in advance to anyone I piss off. If Chinese culture is so wonderful why do we not see more evidence of it everyday. Instead what we see is westernised culture being adopted at every opportunity. Chinglish everywhere, even though most Chinese can't read it and would have no idea what it means anyway. I have just heard Mendelsons wedding march being played over and over on some crappy dating show. Most people hear have very little idea of their countries history so how do they know the origins of their wonderful culture. Westernised music is everywhere, western movies more popular than most Chinese. Students sent to America or Europe to study, western luxury brands are the pinnacle of status and a must have regardless of cost. Everywhere I look China seems to be wanting to turn it self into a copy of America/England even though they have no real idea of what our cultures are really like. So I ask if Chinese culture is so wonderful why does China seem intent on turning it's back on it and adopting some sort of copy of ours. And don't give me that Chinese characteristics shit, thats just an excuse for them not able to do it properly and to save face claim that we do it our way. As I said a BCD but I would be interested in other people viewpoint especially some Chinese.
Nice , even for BCD :-) but, there is no why, no reason. My friend, who bring me to China years ago, told me : " Do not try to understand. " Since i tried to understand zilion times anything here, there is really no way to understand this reverse logic or how to call it...
You have a very good point and what you have said should not be construed as a attack on China
I agree with everything you wrote
and I think it is a shame that China can not find a middle ground that let Chinese proud of their heritage and know what it is about and also be part of the outside world
I do not think they realize what they have and how unique it is
Do not get me wrong Beijing opera makes me cringe
however that does not mean it should be Harmonized into oblivion
I wish I could write half as well as you do
Great post
Most of what you said above is right.Can we say Chinese culture is good at absorbing the good points of other cultures to adapt with new environments?Maybe that's one of the reasons why it is still existed after thousands of years.
derek:
Sorry but that "astute" observation doesn't hold water at all.
actually different aspect of chinese culture has not only shaped its Asian neighborhood at a very deep level but also the western world. Martial arts, tea, porcelain.... should I continue?that currently china is an empty box is due the last 100 years...
America and England?America so far I know is mix of different cultures not a homogenous one and what about the Anglo-saxon? Is really british culture shaping china? It failed with india and hk, what makes you believe that then?
Maybe you ethnocentric expectation about modern china are too tainted in orientalism to see it..
Here's the deal: Culture springs from creativity, ingenuity and free thinking. The Chinese have been denied these things for too long. They are told how to think, what to write and create, and how to feel. This has left them with a cultural vacuum. Consequently, nowadays, when a typical Chinese person is asked to form their own opinions on culture, they don't know how to think. They have been used to being dictated to for so long, they can only imitate. So they can build a copy of the Eiffel Tower in one of their cities without any appreciation for the cultural background or the appropriateness of it. Such appreciation is completely alien to them. They merely think that acquiring it gives them status. In China, culture is no longer an expression of the inner soul. It is just another form of face, a way of measuring status. But don't blame the common people for this. It was never their choice to be this way. Now, they know of no other way.
I'm sure they'd hate to hear it, but Japan would be a very good example in this regard. They have done an excellent job of absorbing what they like from other countries and cultures, but having their own twist on it. I would say that China is not completely absent on this idea either. Look at Christmas: people exchange apples because of the character, which is very Chinese. Maybe you see that as missing the point of the holiday, but I see it as them making it their own in their own way. Yes, for now, Chinese are obsessed with foreign products because of the quality and perceived prestige. Someday, if China is able to make those quality products on its own, maybe we'll see a shift in what's popular. And don't tell me no one in America didn't think about doing something for Chinese New Year because it seems cool.
The dominant culture (currently western) will always shape the subordinate culture, while at the same time retaining some aspects of the subordinate.
Chinese people prefer what the west can offer, as compared to the almost nothingness that their own government offers. Eventually, the Chinese people will have to choose between the two. Or maybe they have already chosen.
Actually, this has more to do with Mao ZeDong and his reign than the question of whether or not Chinese culture is of value (it's a culture that I find to be fascinating, by the way). When he came into the picture, he decided that old, traditional Chinese culture is full of crud and should be thrown to the wind. He implemented those views by starving those who disagreed in dirty prison cells. He tried to replace with communist views, and succeeded in brainwashing an entire nation into believing their 5,000 years of culture and tradition were worthless, and should be shunned.
I have friends in Taiwan who have held true to a good deal of Chinese "traditional" culture, and scoff at the way Mainland Chinese people try to hide it.
It's a sad story. There are many things about Chinese culture that are not full of the loogie-hacking, loud, smoke- (...well, I take that smoking part back. Opium, anyone?) filled society that we see all the time. Sure, the history isn't all perfect (foot-binding?), but what history and culture is? I can think of at least ten things about "western" culture that aren't all that great.
The thing to remember is that Chinese people are trying to find their culture (or some kind of culture) again. The negative outlook that many people have of Chinese culture today ignores that it is a society that is trying to re-gain what it lost. You don't have to like it, but for god's sake, quit bitching about it.
derek:
Please stop comparing "Chinese" culture to "Western" culture as if we are all the same. You write well but you lost me when you made that comment.
Would you attempt to compare "Asian" culture to "Canadian" or "American" culture? I think not. The reason you don't is that all "Asian" cultures are not the same either.
juestewang:
My comment wasn't made to compare the two cultures. My mention of western culture was used as an example.
And... a lot of the people on this site (and the question of this OP included) compare western and Chinese culture simply in the ethnocentric views they hold and gone about as they post on this board.
derek:
I am not talking about others....I am addressing you , and just you. So take responsibility and respond accordingly. Why is is so difficult to hold a Chinese Person accountable for his/her own words?? C'mon now - stay on topic!
Hugh.G.Rection:
Thumbs up from me, some very pertinent points that Derek seems to be trying to hide by ignoring them and shouting about others.
Chinese "culture" was a preserve of the rich, powerful and ruling classes
the peasants could never afford any culture
now that some of them are entering the middle class they are looking for some culture and Chinese culture is old and tired
Not to mention the cultural revolution.(I asked you not to mention that!)
The CTP led by the Gang of 4 and probably including the fifth member of Mao himself tried to destroy the old culture and created a cultural vacuum.
The effects of that 10 years were and are huge.
Some people here are mistaking 'class' for 'culture.' Said it before and I'll say it again - the Chinese want the western lifestyle and all its trappings but they do not want to become westerners. Nothing wrong with that. Heck, in the 20s, North Americans went nuts for all things Chinese...it didn't mean that they were aping another culture or wanted to be Chinese (like so many misguided foreign twits here in China today).
If Chinese culture is so wonderful why do we not see more evidence of it everyday。。.it actually sounds more like a outburst of someone who got frustrated than an acute observation of something. What kind of evidence you wanna see? If the westernization or i should better say the americanization that you see on the surface of some very selected chinese cities is the prove that china is westernized than I think you still need to spend other 5 yrs here...
The full tread is non-sense and i agree wih sinobear indeed.
Traveler:
There is no doubting that the major cities are almost completely westernised now, and China is pushing for further urbanisation to match the west. That means that western culture will become more entrenched in the Chinese lifestyle.
xinyuren:
Ok, I'll bite. Please share a few words that describe modern Chinese culture.
nicholasba:
more urbanization= more western culture or more globalized culture?how much of the culture you come from is 100% western? I don't really agree that wester culture is represented at its best by the americans, australians or etc etc. Thats a globalized soup of western culture
A certain man, resected almost as a god, set about destroying culture. For some reason, people like to ignore this here, especially those who like to carry around red books of smaller size.
xinyuren:
I don't think it's that simple for the Chinese. You are thinking from a western point of view. Ignoring is more like a survival mechanism than a rational choice. Ignorance plays a big part too. Like I said, it's complicated.
nicholasba:
omfg, ignoring is a survival mechanism?? Ignoring is your death sentence....
xinyuren:
It seems you are ignoring some of China's history. More than a few times, the Chinese common people had to ignore obvious "problems" or face the consequences. Even now, there are attempts to erase such problems from the books. Not ignoring these glaring issues means having to do something about them, which just isn't an option for most Chinese people.
nicholasba:
haha, cant you come up with something better than the obvious chinese mantra
chinese society is complicated...you dont know china...etc etc?
xinyuren:
@nicholas - you seem to be a bit dense. China's situation is complicated. Imagine being born into a situation where you have no real control of your life, education, or even your thinking. You are a prisoner in your own country and have no ability to choose your captors. Your leaders do their best to keep you ignorant and when that seems no longer possible, they continue to try, leading to a policy of pretending. Pretending to be socialist while at the same time grabbing everything material within reach. Pretending to work for the people, when in reality their waiting for a hongbao before they do any work. Pretending that everything outside your country is bad, while at the same time blocking the truth from you and escaping to the outside when possible. And you have to pretend not to know what's happening in order to keep your position. To live under these circumstances adds a little complexity to the social structure, to say the least.
Scandinavian:
I am well aware that Godwins law cancels my posts validity but here goes.
Hilter, Saddam and the likes are best just ignored ?
Thanks for all the answers people. I do agree that there is a lot of culture and history pre the middle of the 20th century. I am the first to admit western globalised culture is far from perfect and it does seem a shame to see so much of it being taken on wholesale here. Personally I think that man with the rosy coloured book has a lot to answer for, the country was left in a cultural vacuum and I guess in a way it is natural to try and fill that vacuum with what appears to be so enticing from tv shows and movies. I would really like to see China rediscovering itself and it's history. Nicholas you were right it was a bit of an outburst, as I said BCD, I am not usually that bad.
What do you mean by Chinese culture? If you mean art, literature, philosophy, science, Chinese culture is still awesome. Hands down for surviving Mongol (although they eventually assimilated) rule, Manchu rule, British opium trade, the Japanese invasion, the cult of a leader, Cultural Revolution. If you can read Chinese and are working in any science, you would be amazed at how much you can learn from research written in Chinese.
On the other hand, if you are referring to the state of Chinese society, you are right, there is too much stupidity and ignorance. We can all give examples of this. Especially, the worship of Western products, pop-music and car ownership. By the way, Chinese people don't listen to American pop-music, Chinese pop-stars plagiarize whatever is currently hip in the West. Does this mean that Western art is superior to Chinese art? NO - unless your idea of art is pop-music.
I have met some really ignorant, brainwashed Chinese people. I'd never say that all Chinese people are like that. Just like I'd never say that all British people are Chav or all American people are trailer trash. I also don't care about statistics. What difference does it make if Chinese people are statistically less literate than American people.
As several people have pointed out, the sad truth is Chinese Culture is more alive in places like Taiwan, Hong Kong and Chinatown than it is in mainland China.
I don't see any signs of Chinese culture in peoples lives, maybe apart from the huge number of people who blindly believe in TCM. In every day life very few people do anything but sit and stare at their iPads.
I read this post last night while waiting for some people at Star Bucks. While sitting alone with my overpriced cup of coffee I can see all the you girls in the room looking at the tall foreigner through their glassless glasses, one short glance at a time as they move their eyes away from their iPad. I did not answer the post as MY culture dictates to put my phone away while in the company of others. Sitting there with 4 Chinese people, each sitting with their non-Chinese Smart Phones on the tables, coupled with car keys of German and American brand cars, not much Chinese culture in these people.... Heck, I was most likely the only person in that room wearing cheap taobao Converse knock offs. A huge part of the conversation surrounded the fact that one of the girls had recently been to the US for two weeks, her take away from that was "it is co clean and they can drink water straight from the taps" which has made her conclude that she wants to give birth in the US... because then she could move there when the child turns 18. When I left the crowded Star Bucks we passed a more traditional tea house kind of place, it was virtually deserted. It is not that the Chinese culture does not exist, it is just that the Chinese people are pissing on it daily. What they are chasing from Western/American culture is just all the shiny things, never any of the real values.
I have asked my university students to prepare a self-made English movie about cultural differences: the best they could do was tell me about chopsticks and dumplings. Now I ask you, what does that say about the beloved "Chinese culture"? I maintain that we know more about their culture than they do. Don't get me wrong, that's not arrogance speaking, just reality.
GuilinRaf:
I tried an exercise the other day, based on the countless times that i heard "it is Chinese traditional culture so we must respect/keep it".
I asked then if "foot binding" should be brought back. After all, it is "traditional Chinese culture". Silence.
I asked about Confucius. There, the overwhelming majority felt that we should live according to his principles. I then pulled out the quotes that deal with the (inferior) position of women. The boys still enthusiastically backed Confucius. The girls, were not so sure.
Finally, the arrived at a consensus:
Students: "You are foreigner. You cannot understand."
Me: *Faceslap