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Posts: 2531

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Q: Do you appreciate the opportunity China has given you?

Yeah, I know. Sometimes you can hardly call it an opportunity but neither the less, China has introduced many people to something they didn't have back home.

 

Whether it is a instant job with accommodation, more free time to find your calling, the ability to save more money than back home, a wife to start a new family or hide out from the law... China does present opportunities and that's why most of us ended up here in the first place.

 

All of us have our story and reasons for coming to China... and obviously it is not perfect. But sometimes it is nice to reflect and be appreciative that just because you speak English and you were born in the right country you had the chance to jump half across the world and do your thing.

 

Amidst all the venting and moaning we sometimes forget that... do you ever have moment where you are like... I am happy i had the chance to come to China and although I saw some good, bad and ugly stuff... I appreciate the ride.

 

Or are you too busy viewing everything with tainted glasses and want out ASAP?

9 years 2 weeks ago in  Lifestyle - China

 
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I'll get out ASAP. I'm not grateful for being humiliated and objectified for the honor of working an average salary job. I don't appreciate being singled out. I'd much prefer equal treatment than 'privileges'. I don't appreciate how Chinese culture and education has made it difficult to communicate with my wife. No big thank you for the social isolation, the shallow people on the streets, the corrupt bribe culture, the Red Guard informants snitching every little aspect of your life to authorities because they have no life of their own. I didn't enjoy watching my son get an intravenal drip in his skull so an unprofessional hospital could sell random expensive drugs that don't help him. I'm not thankful that simple, universal everyday products like bread, cheese and butter are overpriced, hard to find and untrustworthy. I don't appreciate being seen as an inferior life form by people who seem bent on claiming the same title with their everyday behaviour. I don't appreciate most of the writing being undecipherable, due to being written in a highly inefficient code of 6000 same-style characters that takes at least 10 years of child-abuse to learn well. I'm not happy to have made zero friends or even amicable acquaintances, not because of language or cultural difference, but simply because it takes unrelenting effort to prove to locals that you might be worthwhile as more than a curious novelty, English teacher or instrument for face-gain. I'm not overjoyed that every attempt at self-improvement and/or building social capital (trust; improvement) is diffused by demotivating expressions and hopeless attitudes. I was slightly amused by the law that treatens to arrest teachers for having socially-relevant discussions with students, but it was a short-lived chuckle due to there being nobody to share or even explain the irony to. Living in Asia has lowered my regard for my fellow humans, and rekindled my childhood racism. Only now it's not rash, misinformed youthful ignorance, but the well-thought-through kind of racism that can win objective discussions. Thank you China!

BHGAL:

I could not read or make sense of much of this blurb.

But, I think, from what I got of it, a little confidence in your abilities and some realistic goals and beliefs are in order.

The communication issue just goes away if you know what you are doing.

The after work or other than work issues (corruption maybe) are not your or my business, as long as you just do your job to the best of your ability.

 

 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Sinobear:

I'll be your friend. Now THAT will make you think.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

@BHGAL: I don't believe I have any shortage of confidence. I'm fairly reclusive and not in he least bit needy (if you were led to believe that), and this independence has probably helped me cope in China. But after more than 3 years in this country, I'd have expected to at least be on familiar terms with some neigbours, just from prolonged exposure. This is only the case for my family home (because my wife is Chinese); the staring is less in my working-home neigbourhood, but no normal interactions like with my family around. And even with my family, all interactions go through them, not me. Have you ever been to a store, paid for a product, and watched the storekeeper turn to hand the change to your wife/GF? This disregard would be insulting everywhere, but it's only accepted practice in China. This stuff is not imagined or result of low confidence.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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royceH:

Thanks man.  Your answer is fantastic and echo my sentiments exactly.

However, China has given me opportunity.  I met my wife here and for that I will forever be grateful.  And China has allowed me to experience a culture far removed from my own.  A culture that I have come to pity.  I have also accumulated some money here.  Buts it's only Chinese money and would be lucky to stretch through a day at the footy and a night at the trots back home.

 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

So you basically do not like China. In my home country getting the real Chinese food is almost impossible and if you want to come to something close so it's expensive as majority of the ingredients must be imported. Same here with bread, cheese and other stuff which common Chinese do not eat.

What concerns of the script so you may be aware of the fact that it was one of the hot candidate for so called philosophical language some time ago in Europe as Europe, same as China, did not have a luxury of creating relatively new country like US and select the language by voting. The script than enabled people with different languages to communicate among themselves and contributed to country unity (something what EU still did not achieve also partly due to lacking common language).

You apparently selected a woman for your wife and now learned that hating China but selecting Chinese wife can pose certain troubles for your common future (not talking about children) ...

I could go on but it probably makes not much sense.

Somewhere you mentioned you want to go to Germany as soon as possible. I think it's a smart move to leave China and I hope that Europe will be for you culturally more acceptable and you will not face similar problems after a while ...

9 years 2 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

@ gouxiong: grain and milk products can be grown and manufacured almost anywhere, but china can only seem to get beer right, which they basically copied off a colonial german brewery in Qingdao (Tsingtao). imported spices are expensive because they only grow in certain places, so i don't know what the point of your comparison is. i don't like china based on my appraisal of the atmosphere and values, or do you mean it as a slogan so you can disregard anything i said due to alleged bias? that vague story about Chinese as candidate for philosophical language is exactly the kind of contorted bogus story Chinese proliferate to draw pride from - don't listen to people who believe everything they read on baidu. Chinese script "unified" the Chinese languages and cultures under one sript, but it's still thousands of stupid fkn pictures spoken differently in each language - the unification is only useful for the government, and learning it is a massive waste of brainpower. alphabet is accessible, and even allows me to approximate the sounds of foreign words, because each letter is tied to phonetic sounds. chinese characters have much less connection to sounds, and it's littered with redundant radicals, overcomplicating the little hieroglyphs. and the underlying language is hardly philosophical: they dont have verb tenses. xiang can mean "want" or "think", and Chinese can't seem to distinguish intelligence and wealth, which reflects in their bribe culture. About the comments you made about my wife: it's more like she found me, i was the desperate one, and she had other options but was infatuated with me at the time. on the whole, it's just not nice to make such personal value judgements based on assumptions of people you clearly know nothing about. And finally: i'm sure Germany won't have any of the cultural apathy of China. don't worry about me. i'll be fine. Germany will be almost like returning home after a rough safari.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

I do not feel like lecturing you. But a reasonable person who likes to call himself/herself educated should perform the due diligence before dismissing the put forward argument. You may decide on your own if you really want to know more about European philosophers and their investigation of Chinese script or not - both is absolutely OK with me. As you are American I assume you should be aware of one common language advantages but may be I am wrong. What concerns of your private relation so I just commented on your statement - no judgement and/or assumption made (and mutual understanding and tollerance certainly is not influenced by who found whom). Being from Europe myself I can just say that German and US culture is not the same even though much closer than US-Chinese culture. I do not worry about you but honestly wish you luck in Germany as apparently China is not a land for you.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

Alphabet is a common script. it facilitates communication much more than Chinese characters could. my spoken French and German are better than an average Han's spoken Cantonese will be. only the government starts and ends communication with writing. people usually talk first, and use pen & paper as last resort.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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I appreciate the opportunity China has given me and the experiences (both the good and the bad) but I'm left wondering - do the Chinese appreciate what I've done and do for them?

Robk:

That's a good question. Probably not...

 

It's rough trying to give suggestions and advice to Chinese. They never listen but they always copy and claim later that you stole it from them lol.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

Dear Sinobear,

Just a question - did you do in China something else than your job?

I mean is there any reason why Chinese should appreciate what you do/did for them? 

As I do not believe that doing your job, for which a person receives agreed remuneration, is a reason why country should be specially appreciating such a person ...

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Sinobear:

Strange calling us, "Foreign Experts" along with all the 'touchy-feely' sentiments that goes along with bringing someone from another country to do something that they cannot do themselves.

I'm not expecting accolades, awards and certainly not publicity - but a 'thank you' would be nice once in a while.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

Dear Sinobear,

I do not want to put down your contribution. I just think that there is no reason for China to be grateful to anyone from us unless we really contribute something extraordinary.

The rest I tend to see as mutually advantageous deal for all parties involved. The deal will go on as long as all parties will see the advantage in it.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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I sure do appreciate my current situation, I earn more than I would back home, I appreciate my boss but despise some of my coworkers who are basically useless and got their position through guanxi.

However I did not appreciate my previous "opportunities" where I was scammed, taken advantage of and lied to on a daily basis.

Now kiss hello to the guy who's sitting behind me in the bus and looks at my phone's screen without any shame, he wouldn't do it with any of his kind, one of many things I do not appreciate in China.

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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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I dunno to be honest.  Appreciative seems like one would have to be pretty happy about whatever it is one is appreciating.  I've had some good times in MK, and I've had some bad times.  (Led Zeppelin is in my head Tongue)

 But, all in all I wish I had never left Thailand.

****I had to add these !

LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS

"Good Times Bad Times"

In the days of my youth, I was told what it means to be a man,
Now I've reached that age, I've tried to do all those things the best I can.
No matter how I try, I find my way into the same old jam.

Good Times, Bad Times, you know I had my share;
When my woman left home for a brown eyed man,
Well, I still don't seem to care.

Seventeen, I fell in love with a girl as sweet as could be,
The only took a couple of days 'til she was rid of me.
She swore that she would be all mine and love me till the end,
But when I whispered in her ear, I lost another friend, oooh.

I know what it means to be alone, I sure do wish I was at home.
I don't care what the neighbors say, I'm gonna love you each and every day.
You can feel the beat within my heart.
Realize, sweet babe, we ain't ever gonna part.

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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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Nah, they get way more out of me than I get out of them and they still try to cheat me.

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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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Well, as I write this, my colleagues in the UK are being made redundant. So yeah, I appreciate being here rather than there at the moment. There are redundancies here too unfortunately. Been a bit stressful the past week or so.

Robk:

What's your field of work? That's rough.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

Manufacturing Robk. Industry has been like this for decades in the west. I knew the "cut people" culture from the bankers would reach China eventually, but I was hoping it would take a few more years. People want cheap stuff, retailers want bigger profit margins, and the bankers take an ever enlarging cut at every step. The manufacturers are at the bottom of the heap and have to take the "pain".

9 years 2 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

Bit more info Robk, I took a 50% wage cut to be in China. I could see trouble ahead, so I bailed out of the UK when I was last made redundant.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

I'd rather be jobless in the UK than working in China.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

Me too. In fact I'd rather be jobless in any European country than perhaps even earning quite a high salary in China.

 

The dole where I'm from for a single guy is more than 4000rmb per week.

 

If a woman shits out a head and the dad runs off, she gets close to 10,000rmb if you add up all the entitlements and training allowances etc.

 

And hey, I'm not opposed to this, as long as it isn't so generous that it creates an incentive to shit out heads instead of work, which it does sadly.

 

You can always just go back to school and learn something new.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@scots.

 

My old man is a toolmaker. He did his apprenticeship and worked in engineering for more than 25 years.

 

While I was a student I would occasionally go and work in the factory where he was. We assembled toilets - I put the cisterns together and boxed them up. I got a forklift license for my trouble. Incidentally if I do a CBA on the value of my university degree versus my forklift license, the forklift license comes up trumps. Easily.

 

On one occasion I was working with dad and all the floor workers were called into an office. There was a ppt presentation by some 22 year old midget with a marketing degree and stupid looking shoes throwing around figures which didn't actually relate to any of the simple points he was trying to address.

 

I said to dad, "trouble at mill, get ready to bail." His response was simply, "why do short men always go into marketing?"

 

Dad was lucky although he was unemployed for two years. He has his own small company and he was manufacturing pieces with his own machinery in his garage. He had way too much pride to take the dole. He was exploited hugely by a multi-national company filled with multi-millionaires. When I looked over his contract, it worked out he was grossing an hourly rate of just $10NZ. They had hired some loud American to work at keeping the industry competitive. This is Wingnut films in NZ. Perhaps the most aptly named company in the world, wouldn't you agree?

 

I say dad was lucky because he got a teaching gig at the local polytech. He loves it and his students think he's great. Have you seen The World's Fastest Indian? Dad's like Anthony Hopkins in that film. He showed a guy how to put a 1.3 litre Nissan Sunny engine into a 1919 Baby Austin.

 

He gets Chinese students, and said all of them can do the mathematics for the engineering course but can't do the practical work, whereas the kiwis can't do the maths but excel at playing with the parts.

 

If you try to talk about cars in China, you usually get, this car has a passenger side airbag, etc etc.

 

So I'd definitely rather be unemployed and playing with engines, mountain biking and swimming in the sea than trying to help some cashed up rent seeking farmer's son learn not to pick his nose and yell when he's inside.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
Posts: 3269

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I'll get out ASAP. I'm not grateful for being humiliated and objectified for the honor of working an average salary job. I don't appreciate being singled out. I'd much prefer equal treatment than 'privileges'. I don't appreciate how Chinese culture and education has made it difficult to communicate with my wife. No big thank you for the social isolation, the shallow people on the streets, the corrupt bribe culture, the Red Guard informants snitching every little aspect of your life to authorities because they have no life of their own. I didn't enjoy watching my son get an intravenal drip in his skull so an unprofessional hospital could sell random expensive drugs that don't help him. I'm not thankful that simple, universal everyday products like bread, cheese and butter are overpriced, hard to find and untrustworthy. I don't appreciate being seen as an inferior life form by people who seem bent on claiming the same title with their everyday behaviour. I don't appreciate most of the writing being undecipherable, due to being written in a highly inefficient code of 6000 same-style characters that takes at least 10 years of child-abuse to learn well. I'm not happy to have made zero friends or even amicable acquaintances, not because of language or cultural difference, but simply because it takes unrelenting effort to prove to locals that you might be worthwhile as more than a curious novelty, English teacher or instrument for face-gain. I'm not overjoyed that every attempt at self-improvement and/or building social capital (trust; improvement) is diffused by demotivating expressions and hopeless attitudes. I was slightly amused by the law that treatens to arrest teachers for having socially-relevant discussions with students, but it was a short-lived chuckle due to there being nobody to share or even explain the irony to. Living in Asia has lowered my regard for my fellow humans, and rekindled my childhood racism. Only now it's not rash, misinformed youthful ignorance, but the well-thought-through kind of racism that can win objective discussions. Thank you China!

BHGAL:

I could not read or make sense of much of this blurb.

But, I think, from what I got of it, a little confidence in your abilities and some realistic goals and beliefs are in order.

The communication issue just goes away if you know what you are doing.

The after work or other than work issues (corruption maybe) are not your or my business, as long as you just do your job to the best of your ability.

 

 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Sinobear:

I'll be your friend. Now THAT will make you think.

9 years 2 weeks ago
Report Abuse

coineineagh:

@BHGAL: I don't believe I have any shortage of confidence. I'm fairly reclusive and not in he least bit needy (if you were led to believe that), and this independence has probably helped me cope in China. But after more than 3 years in this country, I'd have expected to at least be on familiar terms with some neigbours, just from prolonged exposure. This is only the case for my family home (because my wife is Chinese); the staring is less in my working-home neigbourhood, but no normal interactions like with my family around. And even with my family, all interactions go through them, not me. Have you ever been to a store, paid for a product, and watched the storekeeper turn to hand the change to your wife/GF? This disregard would be insulting everywhere, but it's only accepted practice in China. This stuff is not imagined or result of low confidence.

9 years 2 weeks ago
Report Abuse

royceH:

Thanks man.  Your answer is fantastic and echo my sentiments exactly.

However, China has given me opportunity.  I met my wife here and for that I will forever be grateful.  And China has allowed me to experience a culture far removed from my own.  A culture that I have come to pity.  I have also accumulated some money here.  Buts it's only Chinese money and would be lucky to stretch through a day at the footy and a night at the trots back home.

 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

So you basically do not like China. In my home country getting the real Chinese food is almost impossible and if you want to come to something close so it's expensive as majority of the ingredients must be imported. Same here with bread, cheese and other stuff which common Chinese do not eat.

What concerns of the script so you may be aware of the fact that it was one of the hot candidate for so called philosophical language some time ago in Europe as Europe, same as China, did not have a luxury of creating relatively new country like US and select the language by voting. The script than enabled people with different languages to communicate among themselves and contributed to country unity (something what EU still did not achieve also partly due to lacking common language).

You apparently selected a woman for your wife and now learned that hating China but selecting Chinese wife can pose certain troubles for your common future (not talking about children) ...

I could go on but it probably makes not much sense.

Somewhere you mentioned you want to go to Germany as soon as possible. I think it's a smart move to leave China and I hope that Europe will be for you culturally more acceptable and you will not face similar problems after a while ...

9 years 2 weeks ago
Report Abuse

coineineagh:

@ gouxiong: grain and milk products can be grown and manufacured almost anywhere, but china can only seem to get beer right, which they basically copied off a colonial german brewery in Qingdao (Tsingtao). imported spices are expensive because they only grow in certain places, so i don't know what the point of your comparison is. i don't like china based on my appraisal of the atmosphere and values, or do you mean it as a slogan so you can disregard anything i said due to alleged bias? that vague story about Chinese as candidate for philosophical language is exactly the kind of contorted bogus story Chinese proliferate to draw pride from - don't listen to people who believe everything they read on baidu. Chinese script "unified" the Chinese languages and cultures under one sript, but it's still thousands of stupid fkn pictures spoken differently in each language - the unification is only useful for the government, and learning it is a massive waste of brainpower. alphabet is accessible, and even allows me to approximate the sounds of foreign words, because each letter is tied to phonetic sounds. chinese characters have much less connection to sounds, and it's littered with redundant radicals, overcomplicating the little hieroglyphs. and the underlying language is hardly philosophical: they dont have verb tenses. xiang can mean "want" or "think", and Chinese can't seem to distinguish intelligence and wealth, which reflects in their bribe culture. About the comments you made about my wife: it's more like she found me, i was the desperate one, and she had other options but was infatuated with me at the time. on the whole, it's just not nice to make such personal value judgements based on assumptions of people you clearly know nothing about. And finally: i'm sure Germany won't have any of the cultural apathy of China. don't worry about me. i'll be fine. Germany will be almost like returning home after a rough safari.

9 years 2 weeks ago
Report Abuse

gouxiong:

I do not feel like lecturing you. But a reasonable person who likes to call himself/herself educated should perform the due diligence before dismissing the put forward argument. You may decide on your own if you really want to know more about European philosophers and their investigation of Chinese script or not - both is absolutely OK with me. As you are American I assume you should be aware of one common language advantages but may be I am wrong. What concerns of your private relation so I just commented on your statement - no judgement and/or assumption made (and mutual understanding and tollerance certainly is not influenced by who found whom). Being from Europe myself I can just say that German and US culture is not the same even though much closer than US-Chinese culture. I do not worry about you but honestly wish you luck in Germany as apparently China is not a land for you.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

Alphabet is a common script. it facilitates communication much more than Chinese characters could. my spoken French and German are better than an average Han's spoken Cantonese will be. only the government starts and ends communication with writing. people usually talk first, and use pen & paper as last resort.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
Posts: 470

Governor

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I am quite happy having the opportunity to come to China and work here. I consider this to be one of my best decisions in my life so far.

It's amazing to see totally different culture, totally different approaches, motivation. With bigger and bigger immersion into the society and the language I can better and better understand the motivation behind the individual persons behavior (some being rational and some not). 

I thin it enriched me a lot and for sure China changed me to the better. I learned that being arrogant here does not work and I forced myself (mostly) to suppress my arrogance when dealing with everyday issues and problems.

I find the environment amazing despite of many troubles current China is facing. I am trying to approach it with positive mind and so far it pays back for me.

laowaigentleman:

Arrogance only works if you have guanxi, then you can have away.

 

The problem is that Chinese people only seem to respect thick and old westerners who fit the CCP caricature. Properly educated western people who won't buy into their bullshit scare the living shit out of them.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Answer of the DayMORE >>
A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77