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Sign up with Google Sign up with FacebookQ: Do you care about losing face?
I know the concept of face is super sensitive and very important here, but do you think living in China has affected how much you care about saving face? I've caught myself recently caring about stuff and getting offended about stuff I wouldn't have batted an eyelid over at home
I just worry that my nose will fall off and my mouth will run away with me.
I actually couldn't care less although I am Chinese. If I had to worry about face all the time, I'd lose my benefits as a foreigner. Benefits meaning I am allowed not to know about face, about people spitting their throats out, not washing themselves in the heat of summer, etc. Where I come from, you'd lose more face spitting and not washing up. So the concepts don't add up. I just ignore it. What you don't care about doesn't hurt you.
I dont know. As soon as you say the word face in China foreigners turn their nose up. But if you change the question to " do you care if someone disrespects you". People would generally have different answers.
Would you get pissed if someone tried to blatently take your girl while you were standing there?
What would you do if you offered your hand for a shake and someone smirked at you and refused?
How is that any different then some of the "face" stupidities in China? Exactly what aspects of face do these people not give 2 shits about?
mike168229:
I'm assuming your last was meant for me Mike? lol
I was rather vague. I meant the stupid, incredibly ridiculous 'face' exercises like the forgoing of basic comforts to buy the latest iphone. Bowing and scraping to your boss. Making a big show of how you are considerably richer than others. That kind of thing.
mike695ca:
I understand what you mean completely. Im just saying I find it weird that people have trouble comparing cultures unbiasedly. If its chinese , it must be stupid.
For example, We dont need to pay 700 for an iphone, our cell phone companies subsidize them and they make it back by ripping us off on contracts. But what if they didnt? What if we had to pay China prices? EVERYONE has an iphone back home. Its just as much of a status symbol there. You think that if it was 700 buck people wouldnt buy it? Or youd have many many stupid young girls scrimping and saving to buy it. Go to any city and youll see people wearing 400 tru religion jeans, or $200 Billionaire boys club t-shirts. Its dumb in China or any country.
Perhaps they wouldnt buy it. Maybe some guys will put some stupid flashing lights on a civic or jack up a big ass truck, some dumb shit that doesnt do anything useful whatsoever, but makes them look cool or ie gives them face.
As far as sucking ass to their boss. I dont know if I agree. Its a completly different work force here. Where I come from, the vast majority of employments comes from, construction, forrestry, tourism, movies. and small business. We dont have these huge fortune 500 companies with 5000 people in an office all competing. The whole business model is foreign to us, not just the kissing ass part.
But im willing to bet some graduate in a suit and tie job on wall-street takes alot of shit, and kisses alot of ass. They must! Thats why we have so many phrases just for kissing ass or brown nosing.
It all seems the same to me, looking cool, gaining face. Same shit , different term. Every place does it, but because its China and it has a stupid term for it, the whole idea is stupid.
expatlife26:
Actually those are all really good points I hadn't really thought of. Americans don't generally have a ton of savings to be able to buy an iphone outright at $700, so it sounds outrageous. But we have the income/credit to handle a $60 a month phone contract, which would be impossible for people here. I actually love that I have an unlocked dual-sim phone (though a mid-range model) so when I move back home I can avoid ripoff contracts.
I think you're right to draw some parallels between lower socioeconomic youth back home (of all colors...that's not code for black) and chinese people for behavior. Not being seen as dirt poor is really really important for people who are close to dirt poor. Those expensive labels are proof positive you aren't a bottom of the barrel crumb bum for someone who feels they are in danger of being perceived as one. Successful professionals in the west generally can reveal themselves just by mannerisms alone, and that really does usually just come from upbringing/environment. My mom/grandma always said that labels are just guides for people with no taste so I was raised on how to look well-put-together without spending a ton of money, but that's the only reason I can do that. Give me a different mom and I wouldn't know how to dress at all.
You/re right too about needing to kiss ass, though with an asterisk. I guess i'm a wannabe of the kind of wall street yuppie you're talking about. I dunno, I think there are kinds of sucking up which are ethically valid and even dignified, like working at being really really good at your job, and there are kinds that are shitty like buying your boss gifts and giving needless complements. If you think your boss is a smart guy, it's probably wise to take some shit because you'll learn something in the process. You just have to be smart about it, don't let anybody dump their thankless work on you because that will hold you back, but then don't also be so paranoid about being taken advantage of that you miss good opportunities to help yourself out. You just have to approach every situation rationally and do what's best for you instead of living by rhetoric like "I don't ever take shit from anyone!" Those "take no shit" people wind up in shitty situations where they kinda have to take shit from EVERYONE and try and cover for it by picking fights with strangers.
I was nervous about presenting on stage in front of a lot of people the other day, and my friend said, "take a breath...I always tell myself I should seek for the opportunities to lose face in public, that will be the best experience to grow." (exact quotation)
He isnt from a big city at all, so some people at least have a different take on face and dont just view it as the mischievous behavior of routinely lying in public.
We all care about face. It's part of being involved in a society.
The difference is that we get face by expecting a lot from ourselves, while Chinese get face by expecting little from others and are expected little in return.
Yeah. If I lost my face, I'd be even uglier than before... and that's hard.
As a laowai in China, how can you lose that which you don't have in the first place?
Face ? I can not lose more if I like to walk in 8 years old, bit holey hoodie made in Czech, 4 years old dishaped adidas shoes, but very comfortable in this outfit.
They see me and says to themself : who the f..k he is, big loser. hahaha.
and than I buy meat, veggies and fruit in 3-4 times bigger qty than they do. so i gain my face back
daily game like this
I always wonder, when we go on weekend on playground with our son to play, many of the parents there wear their best suits, same for kids. we come in tracksuits and happy
Yes, but not the Chinese normal interpretation of the word.
I care about my dignity, which is different from Chinese face. It's easy for ME to slip up and lose my own dignity, but harder for others to try and attack my dignity.
'Face' is easy to wrinkle. I'd compare it with a guy at college who's chatting up a girl, and is temporarily hypersensitive of his outward image for that purpose. "Dude, you're cramping my syle." Except a Chinese facesaver is in 'style-mode' 24/7.
Dignity on the other hand, is about behaving like an adult. Showing decency in interaction, and if that fails, by being reasonable in discussion. It's hard for others to attack my dignity, because if they try too obviously, they risk losing out themselves.
And if you care about your dignity, them you make an effort to learn how to preserve it. You learn logic, reason, measured responses, consideration of others. In a word: Dignified behaviour. So although YOU are the biggest risk to your own loss of dignity, in reality it isn't that difficult to preserve.
Perhaps the unpredictable nature of 'face', and its dependency on outward factors, is why many Chinese are awkward in interaction. It really is a crippling thought-concept, stifling free thought, open discussion, progress and the advancement of civilization.
Personally , I really don't care what people think of me . What you see is what you get.
I am a man of my word and honor, my grandfather taught me that and i live by it.
The only true dishonor is when you break your work , or refuse to stand up for the truth.
I like to shove it in your face! Especially after a bottle of numbing baijiu. I haven't showered in a week. If anything, I've lost my western sense of face too.
Privately I don't care about face.
But I try not to lose it in front of my wife. It matters to her.
I work hard to gain it in front of the MIL. Makes my life easier
face... perfect stuff for an excellent poet... i'm 1/2 drunk... wtf is face? i dunno... but I sorta doubt I have any or care much about it.. but it sounds a bit silly... and no offense to the world,, but I believe that it is an mal-used idea.. (grammar police can explain why 'an' is correct. now this is an interesting topic!)
face = like to have nice things ? sure,, why not.
face = what others think about me ? sometimes. ( especially if girl i like)
face = never making a mistake (impossible. who cares)
To some degree we all care about "face" although we probably think more in terms of protecting our "reputation". To me this is important in both my professional and personal life.