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Posts: 2536

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Q: Do you ever feel guilty?

For the server at the upscale Chinese restaurant or western restaurant that you know could never afford the food they are serving.

Or the security guard at your apartment complex that could only dream of living in the place he works so hard to protect.

Or the massage girl (or KTV girl) who is only doing it so she can send decent money home whilst living like shit...and degrading herself irreparably in the process.

China is the land of disparity and like it or not...teachers or otherwise...we all live a better life here than most...does it ever wear on your conscience?

We almost all state the superior lifestyle we enjoy here as being a major factor in the decision to stay and work here...but do we ever think about the people that suffer to give us this privileged lifestyle?  I know that the locals don't...but do you?

13 years 4 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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I get the Guilts sometimes,      however I try to help where practical ,even if it just means talking to them in English to help them with their grades . for the others I slip a couple of bucks to the servers and tell them thank you for their service  unless it was useless

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13 years 4 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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I don't feel guilty because I try not to eat at upscale restaurants, I don't pay money to girls in return for using their bodies. Having good quality of life doesn't mean that you will have to support exploitation. Comfortable life doesn't mean privileged life. I do eat good food and have a social life, but I'm not living like a CEO.

 

If you feel guilty, don't support the system!

Nessquick:

Agree indecision

13 years 3 weeks ago
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dandmcd:

Definitely my answer as well.  The foreigners who try to live like a king, hire a nanny to clean their house and wash their underwear, eat only at overpriced western restaurants, who only ride the taxi and never a bus, never try to learn a lick of Mandarin or the local dialect and who can't use a an ounce of conversational skills to meet a girl to bang (trust me, even for the ugliest of men it isn't hard here!) but instead just buy a woman are the types of foreigners I do not like, and will never be friends with.  If you feel guilty about living a "privileged" life, stop now everything you are doing, make friends with the "poor" Chinese girls working at the restaurant, and start living like a normal person and learn to appreciate the culture, instead of doing everything you can to feel you are above everyone else.  Some people came here to live like a king, but I came here because I love Chinese culture and wanted a new experience.

 

I've known some wealthy people back in America who owned a used car, lived in a modest apartment they rented, and never showed their wealth.  I can appreciate someone who uses their money responsibly, and doesn't feel they are of a higher class.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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thedude:

angelina8 and dandmcd...please see my comment for MissA.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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1. I ate almost uniquely at local/midscale restaurants that my Chinese friends could afford, although I did splurge at the local expat bar occasionally (and shout said friends). So shoot me.

 

2. Security guard? Pfffft. It was a massive fight to get the school to put us into habitation fit for humans.

 

3. Making a VERY large assumption that all expats live the same lifestyle as you. 4. If you buy women's bodies and feel bad about it, sorry but deal with your own shit, don't put it on the collective. (Ed: 3 and 4 were meant to be separate, but 4 got lost)

thedude:

MissA...just to clear a few things up....I was making broad generalizations to make a point...I was NOT bragging about what you perceived as higher than normal expat lifestyle.

1. I also usually eat at local/midscale restaurants but do occasionally go to a nice Chinese or western restaurant for a special occasion like a birthday (might cost 4 or 500rmb with a bottle of wine).  Maybe your Chinese friends can also afford it but realize that the vast majority of Chinese people make less than 1500rmb a month...do you think they could afford to pay even 125 for a meal for 2?  

2. As for security guards...I live in a very nice gated community but I only pay 3000 a month because I am outside the city...but this is still a sum that the vast majority of Chinese people can NOT afford....I was making a point.

3. You are making a VERY large assumption that I live what you obviously perceive as a privileged lifestyle in China when nothing could be further from the truth...just much better than the average Chinese citizen.

And why do you presume I buy women's bodies'?  I find this presumption highly insulting as nothing could be further to the truth.  I was merely making a broad reference.  I do go for massages sometimes...MASSAGES...nothing more.  I do go to KTV and drink with hostess girls when out on business...but unlike my Chinese partners...I ONLY drink with them and often tell them they should find a better line of work...but I witness what they have to endure at the hands of others to make good money.

 

In closing..I was merely pointing out that even what you may perceive as a modest existence in China is more that most people here will ever see in their lifetimes.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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Scandinavian:

3000 ? is that in Shekou area ? 

13 years 3 weeks ago
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thedude:

Scan...no..it's in Longhua..north of Futian close to my factory.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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All the time, dude. This is like the rich man's guilt or something. I get it in the U.S. too (note that I'm not all that rich). I see people walking around who've never been outside of their state, let alone our country, and they're just hopelessly working minimum wage jobs. I feel like ass when I see that.

 

I feel bad that I can go around China and spend a more money in a month (record was around 35-40k RMB) than many of them make in a year. However, I do think my contribution to China's economy was pretty noteworthy, so I guess helped some people somehow... some way.  When rich people spend lots of money in an economy, they help it a lot... I guess.

 

The only woman I've ever "paid" for in China was a massage girl in Hubei. I simply got a back rub... that's it. No sex. I was actually really interested in finding out why those girls did what they did. I thought they might be held against their will, but they all basically said they love money.

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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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I feel guilty every time I use the words "no why" or an emoticon in an answer. I am a bad Traveler cool ... Shift+R improves the quality of this image. Shift+A improves the quality of all images on this page.

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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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I guess I feel guilty sometimes, but only for certain specific individuals that I know well.  You know, that rare one that actually is working hard and not spending all day on QQ or Weixin.  Otherwise, I'm just happy knowing I can leave here anytime I really need to.

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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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When some of the noveau riche in China start feeling sorry for the "laobaixing", so will I. But the day that happens is a long, long way off. What is there to feel guilty about anyway? Many very ordinary folk here own possessions that I don't. Even my i-phone is a mid range Oppo. I run a business and employ Chinese. I know for a fact that the salaries that I pay are higher than almost every local Chinese company. I also treat my employees better than the Chinese employers. I get no thanks. I am just told that I should pay more because I'm a foreigner. You can stick your guilt where the sun doesn't shine. When these people start showing some basic manners and courtesy, then I might change my ways.

angelina8:

I bet some of your workers own phones which are more expensive than yours.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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Kaiwen:

Angelina, I can guarantee that. My office assistant has one of those things that comes somewhere between a phone and an i-pad.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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SwedKiwi1:

An i-Phone? Totally agree with your post btw 

13 years 3 weeks ago
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Yes, permanently. Being from an extremely socialist country the inequality is very visible. I can certainly see the value in the societies where the weak are taken care of and everyone that can contributes to that. 

I also know that any of these poor sods, if they had a winning lottery ticket they would overnight turn into that bastard sitting and screaming "FUWUYAN" as soon as there is a spec of dust in their bowl. 

It can be difficult to remember that China is a developing country, remember it is still receiving aid from e.g. OECD countries (actually with mortal enemy no 1, Japan, as the most generous donor) 

 

"To get rich is glorious" Deng Xiaopeng

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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Not really, I am nice to most people that I meet on a personal level, I'll make the laugh if I can.

As for security guards that protected my building, why did I have to wake them up to have them open the garage gate when it isn't very late. Sorry, you can go back to sleep now.

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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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If the tables were turned, would they feel sympathy for your situation?

 

I doubt it!

thedude:

No..but that is not my point.  That is a poor excuse to not feel any compassion.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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Shifu

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No actually.  

Because those security guards are usually migrant workers and what they have there is a job in a city earning way more than they would back on the farm.  The waitresses likewise.  To be honest they're the lucky ones - if you want to feel guilty go and find some farmers to look at - in fact every city has homeless people.  The ones you're describing aren't sh*t out of luck.  The massage girls...  they're a different story.  Some choose that lifestyle because it pays way more than anything else could and it literally transforms them from no-hopers into someone (sometimes sponsoring their studies).  I know that's not always the case and it can be a whole lot nastier than that - so yes, some of those are in a bad situation but while I've been to karaoke on several occasions I've never hired the girls.

And sometimes I do eat at upscale restaurants (although rarely).  Why should I feel guilty for that?  I work hard for my money so an occasional celebration isn't anything to feel shamed about.  You're a nice guy dude but this is (still) a developing country and everyone here, and even a lot of people back home, have a sob-story.  Start feeling too guilty and you'll be taken advantage of. Or you could just start giving away all your money and apologizing for being white. But of course that won't fix anything.

thedude:

I agree that you should not feel guilty if you work hard for your money and want to enjoy it with a nice meal out or an expat bar.  And yes I agree most are happy making what they do because back in their hometowns they have nothing.

I should have worded my question a little different like...do you feel sorry for them?

13 years 3 weeks ago
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happywanderer:

Ah well, fair.  Although we do get taken advantage of here as well .  Unless you look like, and sound like native Chinese then you're all probably paying double or triple the real price for everything (unless you only shop in places that have price tags - market stalls will totally rip off any foreigner).  There are other higher costs for us too, and our employers threaten us with visa-revoking if we aren't good dogs.  Perhaps they should feel sorry for us.  It's just that kinda place - rip-offs and cheating are how it works here, gotta roll with it.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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actually i use to feel guilty but then i just followed the directives of the party and now i just stay and enjoy my laowainess..after all is that what they want us like... Like in the ooooold days....

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Err.... are you not the poster who said you lived for months in a five star hotel? In what way is that not privileged?

 

Let me give a short answer then: no I do not feel in the slightest bit guilty about your generalisations which, while obviously having nothing to do with your experience, are an accurate reflection of the lifestyles of foreigners across the board, which most unaccountably have SFA in common with my lifestyle or that of the people I knew. I ate as cheaply as a local, often cheaper, didn't have a luxurious apartment and had nothing to do with 'massage' girls. I feel bad for them but sympathy/compassion and guilt are completely different things.

 

Actually, since I love cooking and didn't do any non-absolutely neccessary shopping at all in China, my living costs were about the same as an average Chinese lower-middle class person... with the sole exception of the forementioned expat bar.

 

ow, if your question had been 'do you feel guilty about any aspect of your life in China?' rather than making a generalisation, then I'd have given a completely different answer.

nicholasba:

same here, but still we got some extra-expense that chinese don't, eg: visa

13 years 3 weeks ago
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thedude:

It's true that I did live for many months out of necessity in a 4 star hotel outside the city (I paid 390 a night but my company paid)...but living in a hotel for so long is not a pleasant experience.  Having a modest apartment and cooking most days is a far more pleasurable experience for me.

And yes I could have worded my question differently...my bad.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Mention of China's income disparity is banned...see here....

http://thediplomat.com/china-power/love-with-chinese-characteristics/

 

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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Specifically when it is about the security guards. Whenever there is heavy rain or typhoons, I cannot help to think about the poor guards being outside in temperature slightly below 30 getting soaked. Then of course when I go for a walk with the dog it turns out they have all abandoned their posts, even those who are manning the vehicle entrances do not get out of their guard house to see who is entering. Everyone is allowed in during typhoons. Happy looting. 

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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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I actually felt really sorry for a woman on the subway the other day. I just got on the subway carriage when I noticed commotion on the platform outside. A woman, in her late 20's/early 30s was crying hysterically and pleading a platform worker to help her. From what I gathered, here bag had just been stolen as she got off the train. She really looked so upset it was heartbreaking to watch. It looked like she'd lost everything - maybe her whole life was in that bag, who knows! Either way, it really made me reflect about my situation here and while I do often struggle, I still have it much easier in China that her. Judging from  her appearance, and I don't mean this in a demeaning way, she looked like a migrant worker who might earn around 2000 rmb a month. For her, the loss of that bag was considerable. So many people don't have it easy here, it's really sad.

angelina8:

Why do you think you are having it easier than her? It's possible that the same thing happens to you. By the way, thieves operate everywhere in the world.

 

I feel sorry for the girl, but definitely not guilty.

13 years 3 weeks ago
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Shifu

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A friend once told me if you offered a Chinese person a decent wage to leave all your friends and family and struggle with a language and culture barrier they would turn it down as these are important in there culture.  So to a degree we do expect a good lifestyle.  Also you have to remember some of us could earn a lot more money in our own country and are  sacrificing a big pay cut to be here.   Don't feel to bad there are big Chinese ballers here living it up 2.

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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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I just want to add my two cents here. I dont think the Dude meant guilt/bad, I think he meant guilt/empathy.

We all do have at least a different salary grade than many locals and can afford a bit more luxury when we feel its worth it. But I would also say that for the most part, having the get-go to move here takes some initiative and also for the most part, we all take pride in our jobs and work hard at it. But when we see someone who is also working hard at a low paying job we feel the guilt/empathy that they are in a system that is nigh impossible to get out of.

I do feel fortunate, and I wish the system would be able to push higher those that deserve it. But this is the system here and has been for a long time.

As for the nouveau riche and their attitudes and behaviours to those less fortunate, i would give them a recommendation from the late great Kurt Vonnegut: "take a flying f*ck at a rolling donut."

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13 years 3 weeks ago
 
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Some of the comments above state that compassion/sympathy is not the same as guilt, and that seems pretty relevant here.

I feel sympathy and even anger at the system when I see security guards at the gates of government buildings or whatever they are, uniformed, standing like statues on a little pedestal, no matter what the weather's like, wasting their lives away. Same sometimes for the traffic controllers at the crossings that do have traffic lights and everything else you need to make things work already.

Guilt, well yeah, I saw the usual chaos, cars blocking one half of a road, I was on my bike, and cars from the opposite direction switching lanes as if there was no-one else. But the car in front of me going in the same direction tried to peep through a hole that appeared too small and the right side of the car was stripped of on the back of a truck that wasn't really parked along the curb. I couldn't help myself, applauded while biking past it and then I saw the face of the driver, a middle aged woman... she looked so sad that I knew I had chosen the wrong one for my sarcasm. But today I enjoyed the sight of a huge space-wagon parked into yet another truck, without remorse because here both drivers had already got out and stood looking at the damage, quarreling. When people ask me which car is my favorite, I always say it's the tow-truck. Bye bye Audi or BMW, I hope we'll never see you again on the streets.

jack79:

Agree, love to see the car smash up, they are such considerate drivers here just cant help but laugh

13 years 3 weeks ago
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