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Q: Do you (the foreign members of this forum) see the Chinese as equals?

  Not trying to be inflammatory (been warned against it in fact), but i'm curious for your honest answer. Been accused myself of being dishonest a number of times on this forum, but i've never done any such thing. Don't see any reason or rhyme to it. Just being myself, for better or (it seems) for worst. But what of yourself? What is your honest opinion in this matter? I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

11 years 10 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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I do not think of myself as better or worse than any other person, unless that person proves to be scum. In Canada I think we are too lax on criminals, I'm pro-death penalty, even for multiple offenders of non-violent crimes. I'm a giving person, I can easily put anothers needs over mine.

 That being said, I think my penis is bigger than yours, so how can we be equal?

Traveler:

Just curious, but how many penises have you seen to compare with?

11 years 10 weeks ago
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TedDBayer:

I made that poke at MArtian. MArtian was in Guilin before me, the women told me. They also said he was too sensitive and easy to make cry. They would just point fingers to make him cry for fun, but they thought he was sweet because he cried.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Traveler:

I have noticed a lot of Chinese men cry when Australians use the urinal next to them. They could rectify this by ceasing with their obsession to look at foreigner's penises.

 

I think it is OK for a man to cry. Many women find it shows a sensitive side.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mArtiAn:

  I wasn't crying, I just had something in my eye. My penis as a matter of fact. Bet 'you' can't do that. Nur.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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TedDBayer:

Yes you were cryin, I saw a video, but i think it was the time you had that urinary tract infection.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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As everyone knows, no human can hope to be my equal.  But when it comes to second best, the Chinese have just as good a shot as anyone else.

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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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I don't really think of things in that way. China just happens to be where I am currently doing business. I neither have to like or dislike them. I just get on with what I am doing. Sure, I dislike certain things about living here. But, given that quite a number of Chinese have expressed a desire to leave, so do they. I came here by choice and I will leave by choice.

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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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I always try to live by the motto "do unto others as you would have done unto you." I'm not religious, but this makes sense. It is difficult to adhere to here sometimes.

 

That being said, a majority of Chinese people I have come into contact with have a superiority complex and think China and everything Chinese is greater than anything else, mildly accepts Americans as close to their level because America is "strong" until China "assumes it's rightful place as #1 in the world", and above all else, they think Chinese everything is the pinnacle of civilization. Foreigners are treated as a curiosity but should never be placed at the same level as a sacred Chinese.

 

Why on Earth should I treat them as equals if I am not treated as such in return?

MrTibbles:

Fun example from this morning:

 

I was waiting in line to get some street breakfast food when this older Chinese woman began asking me the usual questions: Where are you from? Do you like China? etc. etc.

 

Then she started on food. About basically how the Chinese invented food, then she asked me if I liked spicy food, because Chinese food is spicy, I replied yes, and she then began a rant about how China changed the world by introducing spicy food, which they've been eating for 5000 yyears, and the world should be thankful for China because of that. She was amazed that someone from the Americas could handle spicy chillies.

 

Of course she has no idea that chillies are indigenous to the Americas and didn't even exist in China until they were brought here by Portuguese merchants in the 1500s.

 

It was arrogance and ignorance at the same time!  What a way to start the day!

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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No, because we will never be regarded as equals by the Chinese. We will always be the foreign invaders who humiliated China for a century. They are told to never forget that, even though most of them can't remember it actually happening.

 

This is part of a brainwashing procedure that starts in primary school and continues for life in state media; that Chinese should never accept foreigners as equal, or trust them. Equality can only work if it is a two way street.

 

Do I bear the Chinese any animosity? In general, no.

boomsticks:

Couldn't have put it better myself.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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paulmartin:

Equality can be one way

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mArtiAn:

  Fair enough, not sure I agree entirely, I find people treat me in a variety of different ways, for the most part very pleasantly indeed. Otherwise I wouldn't stay here. But fair play to you for your honesty.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Of course I do. 

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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Well a human being is a human being until such time as they show otherwise.

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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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The woman who sells me baozi most mornings is my equal, the woman who steps in front of me in the line while waiting for said baozi apparently thinks she is better than me.

 

:

A fair enough point of view and correct too. 

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Do they see us as equals to them? 

mArtiAn:

  I have no idea, probably not, it seems to be human nature to fragmentalize (if that's a word) an understanding of the world, rather than see it as a tapestraic (or that) creation of one great symbiotic whole.

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I do treat all humans, (including animals), as equals, until someone tries to bite my extended hand...........

 

And I do have experienced very nice and courteous Chinese persons, who have become my dear friends, and also (TG) a very small few who seem to have a problem with foreigners, but I steer away from those few, mostly older persons.  And do not allow the behavior of a few to change my mind about the beauty of living in China.

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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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I don't look for nor seek equality, I just take people and things as they appear and treat them as they treat me.

Having said that,apparently unlike most 'foreign' posters on this site, in two years here (Nanning, China) I haven't met one single deliberately rude or offensive Chinese person either in reality or online. I have 'met' more than 10 deliberately rude 'foreigners' on this site alone.

I think a common problem is some people think the customs and morals of their homeland are 'correct' or 'superior' and when they see a Chinese person doing something that isn't allowed or accepted in their homeland they condemn the Chinese as rude / ignorant / disgusting. 'Our' ways aren't better (or worse) they are just our ways, I can accept that the Chinese ways are 'theirs', that doesn't make them better or worse than me.

maggiegirly:

Well Said.

I treat people how I like  to be treated.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

So we should judge one group of people by one set of standards, and other group of people by another set of standards, and each set of standards should be based around race and culture? How do you not see that as being just a little bit racist? Oh, I see. Its because your from a country that isn't very used to dealing with cultural or ethnic minorities. (See what I did there?) 

11 years 10 weeks ago
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giadrosich:

Gotta love moral realitivism. Some people invite their neighbors over for dinner. Some people eat their neighbors for dinner. Which would you prefer?

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

It's called when in Rome. We are in China so we adapt we integrate, we do not expect the Chinese to adapt to our customs and our standards because we do them the honour of coming to their country!

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

giad, your example is ridiculous, unless of course you have chosen to live in a nation of cannibals. As I said to Matt, this is China not the USA, don't come to China and expect to find your homeland customs and standards. WE are the immigrants it is up to US to integrate / adapt or leave. If this was a nation of cannibals (i.e. eat their neighbours) I would not chose to live here. However, as I have chosen to live here I will accept that many Chinese people have customs and standards that differ to my own, where I find it acceptable I will adopt those standards / customs, where I don't I won't adopt those customs / standards but either way I will not demand that THEY adopt MY standards.

That would be the same as Muslims coming to the UK and demanding we impose Sharia law and the death penalty for apostasy.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

While in part I agree with you, and respect your view, I'm also going to disagree (as has Giad and Matts).

 

Moral Relativism has problems (as does Moral Absolutism). In my world view, there are some morals (ie, socially acceptable conventions) that are beneficial to the society and people in them, and some 'morals' (SAC's) that are not - regardless of whether the culture of society agrees or not!

 

Let's look at a quick example - the eating of pork. To some people, it is not only a religious issue, but it becomes a 'moral' one.  However, that particular taboo is based on unhygenic practices from the past. Thus, if that value was to be evaluated today, would it still be considered 'immoral', or 'taboo'?

 

Ripping people off (eg, food contamination to save a buck - using only an extreme example - does the extreme actually matter, or the intent behind it?). This is a bad thing (for society and people in general). It doesn't matter if the culture actually accepts it or not, it's just a straight out bad thing....

Giad's example is valid... it doesn't matter if you choose to live in the society or not - the question is how do you view it...

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Shining Brow, Ok, then take your view where you seem to believe that it is ok to impose those morals you believe to be superior on another race and have a look at where it can lead.

Lets go back to Britain at the height of Empire in the 1800s, when Christianity was widely accepted by almost everyone of any note and education (read white Europeans) as being absolutely THE ONLY moral compass. So it was deemed acceptable to go to Africa and South America and in the name of that religion and those morals enslave, murder and forcibly convert (often on pain of death) those 'savages' to this 'superior' morality.

That, in my view. is the outlook you are defending. It leads to the obvious question "who sets the standard as to what morals are acceptable or absolute"

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I can understand how you come to that conclusion, and it's probably a fair cop.

 

However, most people don't seem to get that 'morals' merely means 'socially acceptable behaviours'. It doesn't actually mean something like 'good and bad'... only what is 'accepted' as good or bad within a society.

 

Interestingly, I'd suggest that your stance - 'when in Rome' - is more likely to accept what the British did in Africa than my own stance. Your position would be to say "well, if it's what they want to do, that's ok by me, but I'm not going to go there and tell them they need to change".

 

From my position, I get to say "did the British effectively, and efficiently, do things that actively helped/benefitted/changed  the people of Africa?" My answer is 'no'. By taking that sort of stance, I get to 'judge' other cultures as well.*

 

But, yes, you're right... I'm basing my judgements on my own sets of indoctrination and how I've responded to those.

 

 

*yeah - I get that it ignores the whole idea of the 'right' to do such a thing in the first place... or whether they should have been there at all.... if we want to go down that route, there's a whole pile of history to look at - including Hong Kong!

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Oh, quick hypothetical question...

 

An alien race, with a few million years of evolution etc, comes to planet Earth, sees what we've been doing, and promptly demands we change our ways - the wars are ridiculous, we're destroying our planet, and the way we treat the environment, animals and other humans is self-destructive.

 

How do you respond?? "Bugger off, this is our planet, you've got no right to judge us"... or "Hmmm, you're right - we need to change!!!"

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Shiningbrow, a couple of points in way of a somewhat roundabout answer to yours.

 

I didn't and don't say what happened in history was wrong or immoral, because I see no value in projecting modern standards of behaviour onto another time or place where they did not (or do not) exist. What happened happened, it cannot be undone, given our modern outlook many would say it was wrong, I won't, it happend and AT THAT TIME it was deemed to be morally correct.

As to the aliens, you cannot IMPOSE goodness, goodwill or morals, down that route lies slavery and btw that is exactly what the monotheistic religions all try to do. What you (and the hypothetical aliens) can do is say, 'look here this way is better because ......, we can help you change IF YOU WANT TO', because any true meaningful change has to come from within, it cannot be imposed, either by immigrants, aliens or religion.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Hugh, that does generate an 'anything goes' attitude - one that I can firmly say I don't agree with. If what the Brits did in Africa a couple of hundred years ago is deemed as 'just what happened', then there's nothing we can 'learn from' that. If it's not judged as being 'bad', then we're all quite at liberty to do it all over again... which means, it's perfectly alright for us laowai to impose whatever standards, morals, attitudes etc we want on the locals (of whatever community we end up in). So, I don't see how you can put a negative spin on foreigners who look down upon Chinese...

 

Secondly, I'll also disagree with the aliens and morality bit. Mostly, because I disagree that 'morals' can't be taught. Yesh, they can. They come from 'within' when we put them there (as is what happens with child-rearing). Try to imagine a world where children are allowed to grow into adults with absolutely NO form of punishment or censure for ANY acts they do... The idea of 'morals' is merely one of conditioned behaviour patterns. (though I wonder - do you think there is some form of inherent 'morality' in the foetus? Or infant? Etc etc??

11 years 10 weeks ago
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giadrosich:

@Hugh: "giad, your example is ridiculous, unless of course you have chosen to live in a nation of cannibals. ...this is China not the USA, don't come to China and expect to find your homeland customs and standards."

 

Not ridiculous at all. Which would you prefer? If they eat people in "Rome," would you do so? If not, why? In fact, "when in Rome" simply means that you except what people do in that culture as being on par (at least) with how you were raised in your culture. One becomes a moral chameleon, to a degree. What it amounts to is simply, if I go to a culture and everyone lies, it' okay to lie. If I go to a culture where everyone steals, that's okay, too. Eating your neighbors for dinner? Why, I guess I'll pull up a chair!

 

I'm not expecting the same customs here. But I am expecting the same "sense" of "right and wrong." Like truth, fidelity, trust, etc. Now, that being said, virtues (and vices) fall into shades and degrees, and that is where cultural diversity allows itself a little wiggle room while still operating under the overall umbrella. That, after all, is how a successful society operates for any length of time.  

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Giad, I have explained my view numerous times, throughout this post and this thread. I won't project my assumptions onto a different culture, that doesn't mean I have to adopt all their customs and standards, merely that I don't expect them to adopt mine just because I am in THEIR country and further, I don't view my standards as superior or theirs as inferior (or vice versa), it is up to the immigrant to adapt or leave, therefore if as in your silly example they were all cannibals I would leave as it would not be a place I would want to stay.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Shining brow, sorry for the tardiness of my reply I got sidetracked by other irrelevant rubbish, but back to our discussion.

We can learn from what happened in the past but there is no point in berating ourselves for our ancestors not complying with our current morals, down that path lies insanity.

When I said change must come from within I didn't mean that in the within the person sense, I meant within society, within that nation or in your example from the Earthlings, the people changing have got to want to change before it can really take effect, if you force a moral code on a society it will be rejected, or if you have overwhelmingly superior force then people will only pay it lip service and behind close doors ignore it. (Sound familiar?) Of course morals can be taught, but the student must want to learn, and usually to beget that want you need to show some advantage to them of learning. That is what I was trying to say in my alien 'change from within' post.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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giadrosich:

Yep. I read your "argument," which is simply another way of saying, "who cares?" How do you think societies change? By someone (whether inside of that society or outside) saying the status quo could improve, and then for others seeing the benefits of change and then doing so. Personally, I don't try and change anyone, because I'm not someone's judge. It seems to me you think that I'm trying to impose my culture here. Far from it. I didn't come here to do that, and for you to assume that as being my "mission (per your response)" is simply unfounded. Just because you don't acknowledge a truth doesn't mean it isn't evident. The cannibalism example is merely demonstrative of a way of looking at norms within a society. Some norms are good, some are bad, hence my example of vices, which you failed to address. Are these good for societies or not? Is it okay to steal, if everyone does it? How about cheating on an exam? If that is an accepted practice among students, does that become "correctable?" Is plagiarism alright? I think you would say, "no," but if not, why not? That is the norm for that society. And if not, that means there are universal ethics which cut across all societies as being commonly beneficial to all people. That is all i was trying to say. Call it silly and ridiculous if you desire. It's your prerogative to do so.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Sorry Giad, I missed your reply amongst matt spitting out his dummy and shredding his teddies.

I obviously disagree, it is not a case of 'who cares' but a serious case of it would be immoral for us to impose our standards on someone else or especially on another nation, who are we to say our ways are better or superior, who made us the moral arbiter for Humanity? . Britain and Spain (amongst others) tried that a few hundred years ago, Britain and America are trying (and failing) to do that now in the middle east, it is ALWAYS wrong and usually self-defeating to impose morals on a society who do not want them especially when, as we do, you WANT to live amongst them. The bottom line, is adapt to their ways or leave, that doesn't mean you have to change your morals but it does mean if you cannot handle them sticking to theirs then it is time for you to leave.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Giad's brought up a rather good example here... cheating, plagarism, etc. Many of us here are ESL teachers. It's extremely common practice for students to cheat in exams, and copy stuff from the internet - and expect to get their degree and move into a job in China. We come along, and (in some cases) demand that those practices stop (at least in our classes). And, we try to punish those students who try it..

 

This example puts you fully in one camp or the other - you can't just do the 'I become a part of it, or I mind my own business' type of thing - this directly affects those around you (the students). Do you let them 'get away with it', or do you punish them???

 

I'll also disagree about enforcing morality (it's what happens in our society too - that's why we have punishment... you know, police and prisons etc).. Sure, it doesn't go down well for a generation or two, but by the third generation (usually), standards of morality have changed and become inherent in the individuals. Just look at our attitudes to showing flesh over the course of history. 100 years ago, people were wearing neck to ankle stuff at the beach - it was 'immoral' to show more than that. Now... you can see what someone had for lunch!

 

i certainly get the 'not berating ourselves for our ancestors past' - but I'm not talking about 'berating ourselves', but acknowledging 'reality' :p If we say it was 'wrong', then it was wrong both then and now (otherwise, again, we're talking moral relativism - now across time instead of just across cultures). Slavery - right or wrong? Rape - right or wrong? Unless... we just ditch the idea of 'morals' as imperatives, but are just descriptors of actions and cultural attitudes. (ummm - yeah, I majored in philosophy :p)

 

 

Just curious - if you live and work here - are you on a standard 'Chinese' wage, or on a 'foreigner's' wage?? How about how you live? As you said, you chose to come here, we ought to adopt to this culture (or leave).

 

Also... let's take the example of spitting. While it is still common practice in many parts of China, and by various peoples (usually older), to many here it has become abhorrent, and there are moves to stop it (government advertising). Do you think we, as foreigners to a country, have any 'right' to comment on that in any way (by 'comment', I mean 'try to change'). After all, this is something that you probably have an opinion on, and would be finding many locals sharing that opinion...

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

OK, I'll have to disect that reply.

 

First - I'll also disagree about enforcing morality (it's what happens in our society too - that's why we have punishment... you know, police and prisons etc)..

 

I think you are confusing law with morals, I've said in my previous reply I accept laws as widely accepted standards and I will concede they are often moralistic, however enforcing them is different to forcing their accpetance, you could introduce a law that all 12 year old children should be raped, you could force people to do it, but I think it would be a very long time (if ever) that it became accepted. Laws are a guide to what is acceptable, however that does not mean you can enforce morals, standards yes, morals no. Standards of morals change because of widespread acceptance NOT because of force, look at India and the caste system, the prejudices of that system are still widespread despite many generations of laws against discrimination.

 

Your other two points were really the same thing, cheating plagiarism and why do I accept a higher wage than the Chinese. The answers are simple, and do not in any way require me to judge the Chinese as a nation, I enforce the regulations I am told and paid to enforce, or I leave. If my DOS says you must allow the students to pass and cheat then I make the decision based on my morals, i.e. the moral code I choose to follow, but if it does not force me to judge the Chinese as inferior or superior, I am being paid to do a job,  that job is to teach English to the best of my ability, if they ask me to allow cheating then I have the freedom to leave. Same with the contract, they are paying me more than the Chinese presumably because I am better at the job, (note I said better at the job, not a better person). Neither of these case requires me to impose my morals on the Chinese, they choose to learn under the system I use, or they don't, they are as free to leave my classes as I am.

 

Spitting; do we have a right to comment? Yes. Should we? Only with care. Spitting is becoming unacceptable to most Chinese so we would not be imposing our standards on them but reminding them of their own standards. I say only with care because I feel it is not our place as migrants to make such a stance, especially when the Chinese are doing it themselves. P.S. I don't know if it's just me or just Nanning, but I only see spitting once or twice a day, public urination almost never perhaps when a taxi driver cant get to a public toilet and then they always go behind a tree, as to public defecation, in over two years in Nanning I've never seen a single adult defecating in public.

 

So in summary, yes Giad has brought up some good points (as have you) but no  they don't force me into any one 'camp'. If I am paid to do a job, then I will do it, if they want me to adapt my morals in a way I cannot accept I won't accept the contract, either way I'm not forcing my morals onto anyone unless they have accepted that will happen before they attend my class.

 

 

 

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Martian

since you have been back some of your posts have been a little on the

well wu mao ish

are you trying to fill a void created by recent evictions?

at least you do not thumbs down every body

Traveler:

I had noticed that also.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

Did anyone else notice that he and Loke disappeared right around the time that #'s showed up? And now he has coincidentally started to post again right after she was banned.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Matt don't be ridiculous, you don't like the fact that mArtiAn questions your apparent hatred of China. I know mArtiAn personally and philbravery has checked me out on Facebook. Neither of us are either Chinese or wumaos.

phil, just because mArtiAn poses questions that some here find uncomfortable that is not being a wumao, (as I understand it). Wumao's are here to repeat the CPC party line mArtiAn is hardly doing that.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

This isn't as far outside the party line as you are making it out to be. Consider our most recent, confirmed wu mao. She was fairly fond of asserting that Chinese immigrants to the West, and even westerners of Chinese decent couldn't expect of fair shake in the west because they were Asian. In asking this question Martian is implying what #'s was saying outright. And this all happens not long after there were a number of questions about whether or not the Chinese judge other people on appearance or nationality, as if to say "hey, look, they do it too." Now that would indicate to me that the two of you are either fairly dim or that you have some other agenda  that you aren't telling us about. 

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

I supposed it had to come to this, losing the argument so resort to blatant insults and the age old 'wumao' call.

I'll give this thread another couple of hours and no doubt it will be closed. Perhaps that's what you want as it's exposed your self-admitted racism?

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

I didn't lose any argument. I don't see how anybody paying attention to what's been written could think that you come off looking very good. I said what you are doing is racism (the the idea your advocating is racist, because lets face it, it is), and you accused me of being a racist outright several minutes later. There is a pretty clear difference between calling an idea racist and a person racist. Remember, these things are time stamped. If I were you, I'd consider editing them before the mod shows up. I will not be, because I've got nothing to hide.

 

What I said here is that you and he are being trolls. Just like you, Martian, Loke, and Snowball were being trolls last fall. Now, the mod was smart enough to ban two of those accounts and this place settled down for a while. Now its starting to get crazy again and I think that it might soon be time to ask the mod to finish what he started last fall. 

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mArtiAn:

  I made a silly, drunk post about red thumbs and erections (hardly pressing the party line with that one), a question about the whereabouts of Loke because personally I have nothing against the guy. Bit troublesome but nothing bothers me on here, it's just chat, not real life. He's probably looking at himself in the mirror right now, howling at the grotesque creature he became in his quest for 'what is right.' And then of course a fairly inflammatory post about this site. Yeh, erm, that was a bit lame, i'd just been attacked for asking about Loke and I guess I was retaliating. But I got my wrist slapped for it by the big dog, and told him fair play, told him to cut me off at the source (yowzer!) if he likes, I know I can be a bit of a twat at times. But no, i'm not trying to fill in for any absent party, I didn't time my return to this forum, I just popped in and asked whatever came to mind. Don't actually see myself riding that high horse no more though. What a dull ride that is. And Matt, no, i'm afraid you're wrong in your suggestion that I am connected in any way to Loke, or anyone else on this forum, though I do count Huge as a good personal friend. I am mArtiAnus Maximus Silliness, husband to a Chinese wife, father to a ChinBrit son, and I will have my snail-rice noodles.........in this room or the next.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

Oh matt how I tremble your going to ask the mod to ban the naughty nasty man who keeps making your arguments look ridiculous!

 

By the way, while your asking the nice mod to ban me, perhaps you could also tell him under what conditions i.e.what part of the posting guidelines have I breached. You do know about the posting guildelines don't you? ................

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

My arguments don't look ridiculous.On the other hand the idea that holding people to a lower standard of behavior based on race and culture makes you anything other than a racist makes you look pretty silly.  

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Martian, I suspect you may get your wish regarding your personal ban...

 

Admin is a cat, so calling him a dog..... well, you get the rest.

oops - my bad! I hadn't noticed we now have a Dog mod as well - it's been a while since I've been on here....

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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No. I don't consider the Chinese to be inferior to me. I expect them to meet the standards I set for everyone else. When they do that, they don't get any extra praise, when they don't  they illicit exactly the same amount of scorn. 

Hugh.G.Rection:

So you are saying everyone else has to match your standards? So you are inferring that you aren't willing to adapt or accept different standards, that yours are better?

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

No. I'm not saying that one is better than the other. I'm sure that we could spend the whole afternoon parsing out where the Confucian model has it over on the western model, or visa versa. I actually rather enjoy reading that kind of essay, and Ku Hong-Ming's "the Spirit of the Chinese People" should be required reading for expats living in China, although I disagree with nearly all of it. 

 

What I am saying is that what you're advocating, judging them by a different set of standards based on race and culture, is kind of a crummy thing to do to a group of people. It's whats called the soft bigotry of lowered expectations.  

11 years 10 weeks ago
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MrTibbles:

People need to stop going on about "different standards" in China.  This is nothing but BS. Look, pissing and shitting in the street is not "part of their culture". It's disgusting, unsanitary, and based on LAZINESS, not something "acceptable to our culture" in the minds of Chinese people. If it were, there would never ever have been public restrooms built anywhere in China.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

I am not judging them at all! I leave that to you and your fellow racists.  (and btw you raised the racism card first not I).

This is China, WE are the immigrants, WE adapt to THEIR customs and standards (or ignore them so long as we don't break the law) or WE leave. But it is blatantly absurd and probably racist to come to a foreign country and demand the people of that country adopt YOUR customs and standards. Simple.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

No  you are making a judgment by virtue of having an opinion. In this case, you're saying that a certain set of behaviors is okay, an implicit judgment, not because of the behavior itself but because of who the person is, and in this particular instance, what their race or cultural is. Its high minded racism, but its still racism. And a person who engages in racism is a....

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

matt please do not be so rude and obnoxious as to say what I am saying. You can say what you THINK I am saying but not what I am actually saying.

I said I make no judgements of other peoples standards and morals and I mean that 100%. My personal standards and customs I will adapt as I feel is correct, in that I judge MY actions not other peoples, I do not judge the actions of others unless they affect me and cause me to do something, and even when that does happen I can (and will) say I do or do not like it but I will NOT say it is right or wrong (unless of course a law has been broken and then the 'wrong' is clearly defined).

As I have repeatedly said, it is not for immigrants to impose their standards on the nation they go to, it is up to them to adapt to the standards they meet. Anything else is neo-colonialism.

P.S. As you mention racism (repeatedly) racism is defined as regarding oneself (or ones standards) as superior to another race or nationality. You have already said you regard your standards as superior, therefore you have labelled yourself as a racist. And I don't view racism as high minded in ANY form, it is the most disgusting evil humanity has ever indulged in, (in my opinion). For myself, I don't view myself or my morals or standards as superior and neither do I view those of the Chinese in that manner, I just view certain items customs and standards as different here.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Hmmm...

(importantly, Hugh... I'm responding to your POSTS - not just out to 'get you'. I prefer to debate arguments, not people :) ))

 

A couple of thoughts come to mind here.

 

Firstly, you mention 'law' in the same sentence as 'wrong'. That's a rather 'lawful' attitude to take. It leads to the very big question of how well laws align themselves with the morality of a nation... and then compare those to the morality of the people in that nation. For instance, if you think the death penalty for major (or minor) crimes is 'immoral', then what's the situation when the local laws allow for it? Do we presume that what the judiciary or government says is 'good' or 'bad' is actually able to determine those things better than any particular individual within that country (or even, outside it)?

 

Secondly, I'd actually say 'racism' is defined as having a particular set of attitudes or beliefs towards individuals based purely on their race. Racism can be both 'positive' or 'negative' (in as much as the expected outcomes). It's quite possible for someone to be racist, yet consider people from a different race to be inherently better than oneself. (yes, I'd say this is relevant to the discussion....)

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

shiningbrow, no problem I enjoy a discussion as much as the next, so long as it doesn't resort to insults.

Now yes I exhange the ideas of law / legal and right and wrong, I do so not because I believe all laws are right (or wrong angry ) but because those laws can be seen as a more widely accepted code of right and wrong i.e. they are not just your or my opinions but have been mostly accepted by 'society'.

 As to racism, well firstly

 

  http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism

  race - each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics:people of all races, colours, and creed. a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group: "example"> we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then

  http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/race--2

 Therefore using the Oxford Dictionary racism is when you regard your race as superior to another, and race can mean nationality. That is my view of racism, further I don't regard 'positive discrimination' as any less racist and hence wrong as any other kind of racism.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

1)Have I? I'm pretty sure that I said "I'm not saying one is better than the other" means exactly the opposite of that. Go ahead, scroll up a little. Its the little arrow near the top right corner of your browser. Don't click the "X" because that will close the window.

 

2)I said that I judge everyone by the same standard of behavior. Your assumed, incorrectly, that this standard of behavior is a product of western culture and western culture alone. I'm sure that many Chinese think that it isn't okay for people to lie one another, even in a business setting. But, if I get mad at my boss for lying to cheat me, how long before somebody says "You have to cut your boss some slack because that's what Chinese bosses do"? What you're doing here is providing a justification for that. I'd love for you to explain how it isn't. But you haven't. You just keep saying I'm putting words in your mouth, and then go right back to doing just that. 

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Hugh.G.Rection:

matt you're the one doing the assuming. You have resorted to insults and thereby prove unworthy of further discussion. You can watch shiningbrow if you want to learn how to conduct a civilised discussion. Good day sir.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

Number's used to say the same thing. 

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Emperor

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I'm glad you asked the "foreign people" here, because if you would have asked this of the local population, the answer would probably have been a "no," mainly because many Chinese view equality as being bound by status, which derives from position. A worker would never consider themselves "equal" with their boss, either positionally or existentially. This would be buttressed by the fact that the boss had more influence (guanxi), which in the eyes of the worker, would prove the point.

 

Equality as you are presenting it is primarily a western concept. Asia has a much different view of what the natural order of things are in regards to what a person is "worth."

 

However, to answer your question, sure, I do. If someone treats me different, that's okay. I stopped caring what people think about me a long time ago, but that doesn't give me an excuse to treat someone badly just because they're an idiot.

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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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think yourself first ! If you still trying distinguish Chinese and Foreigners, then you haven't treat Chinese as equal first. Why don't you think in Chinese angle? Most of Chinese are very kind to foreigner.

Shining_brow:

Yes and no....

 

The question is actually about 'culture' rather than 'race'.

 

Unless, of course, the OP was referring to ALL Chinese people (including those living overseas - US, UK, NZ, AUS, etc etc etc). Most on here seem to be discussing mainland Chinese, living in PRC... not Chinese in general.

 

I could be wrong, though :)

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Emperor

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Yes.

 

And no.

 

I consider myself fairly arrogant.

 

I'm also fairly 'spiritual'.

 

We have a soul or spirit, and we have incarnated into a body, and we have a personality and attitudes. Most of those attitudes have been indoctrinated into us from our formative years.

 

We have the ability to break out of those indoctrinations - but 99.99+% of humans don't ... and aren't even aware of them!

 

I look down upon people who choose to remain willfully ignorant! Especially if they then try to denigrate others. Whether those people happen to be Chinese... or American... or Thai, or Indian, or Aussie, or whatever, is basically irrelevant! (I think I've met some of each of the aforementioned...).

 

Unfortunately, I do also have some 'worldly experience', and unconsciously tend to 'look down on' those locals who don't have that (and act accordingly)... my bad, and something I try to be aware of.

Scandinavian:

If you are "fairly spiritual" does that mean you are "willfully ignorant" to science? 

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I don't see a contradiction between the two. However, I have found a LARGE amount of willful ignorance in the scientific community.

 

(and, yes, I know the reverse is true...)

11 years 10 weeks ago
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MrTibbles:

"Willful ignorance" here means "people that don't agree with my hokum", :)

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Good to see you again, too, Mr T. :D

No, 'wilful ignorance' in science is merely the assertion of 'has not been found' actually means 'does not exist'. I'm quite happy with science - I just have problems with scientists :p (well, pseudo-scientists). Not wanting to go over it all again, but... I respect that you have issues with 'hokum', and that science 'has not found'.... I get narky when that becomes 'you're an idiot for believing' and 'it's all a lie'.... significant difference!

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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No long answer just YES I DO

Hugh.G.Rection:

Good, simple answer.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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We're all just mammals. 

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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Emperor

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Im sorry I posted a answer in the first place.                                       Can we just go back to mellow time?      it was so much nicer

mattsm84:

Word. If Martain was warned against being a troll by the mod before posting this, he should probably be issued another warning.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mArtiAn:

I dunno Philip, for the most part that was an interesting discussion, between Hugh and Shinning Brow at least. Very civil. Matt seems a little testy. Was never accused of 'trolling' though Matt, and in fact, as a person who's made a vile attack on my mother in the past, and been rude to me at every turn, i'd suggest you have a serious think about the definition of the word. But i'd like to avoid flame wars, so Matt, as I said to you after your most recent attack.....peace and carrots.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

You're a douche, and nobody likes you.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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mArtiAn:

  Boo-hoo.

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Traveler:

Once you open the flood gates, grasshopper Phil, there is no going back...

11 years 10 weeks ago
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philbravery:

no problem the QLD water commissioner will let me off

(sorry to the guys not from Aus but it is too long to explain ) 

11 years 10 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Phil - really???? I thought the commissioner would throw the book at you - or has SEQ not copped what's gone on down south?

11 years 10 weeks ago
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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
Posts: 189

Governor

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I am treating them equally, but I always get into trouble.

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11 years 10 weeks ago
 
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Peasant

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Wow! This question is getting more action than people do in their lifetimes! Ha,ha

Shining_brow:

Certainly more than in MY lifetime :p

11 years 10 weeks ago
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A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
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