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Q: Do you let China politics interfere with your life experience here?
I try to follow the politics here in China. What President Xi and his party is doing in and out of the country. But, the more I learn, the less I find that I like what China is doing in the world. I still love the people and all things China (outside of politics). But, the more I learn about China politics, the more disgruntled I get about "China". What are your thoughts on this? Do you tune out the political part of your Chinese experience?
I enjoy the political part of it.
It's a never ending game of trying to figure out if China is an underdog or a financial giant. I enjoy watching western politicians change policy as they fight over votes, while Chinese politicians take a more passive view of the world as they work away at their "plan".
Politically, I am personally affected by the one child policy. I already have a Chinese child here so we cant have another one. Yes we can pay a fine or have another baby and declare it as a foreigner, but I am one of those people who think this policy is ok.
But above all, I am happy to pay my tax to a Government who are not using it to bomb innocent people in foreign countries. Yeah, of course there is repression, but it's not under a remote controlled armed drone. My tax money might be going towards proping up corrupt regimes to ensure supplies of materials, but in my view that is better than it being spent to bomb and kill innocent kids in the name of freedom.
I detest the way wars become vote winners in the west. China gets my vote for not dropping bombs on people, and it's policy of asking other nations not to.
dokken:
if al qaeda set up bases in order to attack china dotted all over a country, let's say indonesia, and the indonesian government refused to do anything about them and even supported them, pretty sure china would wipe indonesia from the map. they would bomb them to oblivion or even go nuclear. that would then be a popular decision among the chinese people.
Englteachted:
Dokken: You are right but I want to add one thing. Those threats were allowed to come into the country (France/ USA) . And in America's case, we essentially started it. No one wants to hear this. But the truth is, if the people didn't want us to set up bases in their country(s) then we shouldn't. Also we out right interfere with their governments. In Iran we overthrow their democratically elected government and installed a dictator that was so harsh and brutal the people allowed this current regime to seize power. And then we followed it up with the Iraq lies and invasion.
America created these Muslim terrorists, funded them, armed them and gave them motivation.
So what you said is actually true and a good point with regards to China but that is not the whole story when it comes to the states.
ScotsAlan:
There is only one place that China has said it would bomb and we all know where that is.
I think the scenario dokken describes about would not happen. I think Indonesia is a bad example of course, but if some "rogue" state took a dislike to China, the China would talk to them. With the cash China has, nobody would ignore them.
Lord_hanson:
@scots, you make it sound like it is the method of killing and not the killing you disagree with. Would you prefer soldiers gunning down people instead? @englteachted, I think islamic holy texts being manipulated is not Americas fault. The muslim world was just more interested in destroying Isreal instead of America.
coineineagh:
@Alan: you don't know that China is investing massively in drones? the 1 million strong army is mainly for nationalistic showing-off; they can't complete a 12 day traning exercise without lining up at the infirmary and calling in for "Cultural Performers" for KTV night. the navy and airforce are just as much a joke. but the swarms of drones that are being built would cause massive collateral damage to the countries around them if war were declared. it's the CCP's coward tactic of holding civilians hostage to preserve their regime. when i told my wife this, she said "good", as if CCP represents her interests in any way. i need to get my family out of this delusional country.
ScotsAlan:
Oh come on coin. Chinese spending on defence is a fraction of what the USA spends.
China already has the bomb, it has ballistic missiles, it has an active space programme and it has displayed it's ability to destroy objects in space.
But it's not actually using this equipment. It's not actually bombing anyone, nor shooting anyone.
DrMonkey:
They don't bomb, but they don't respect sovereignty of their smaller neighborhood. The discourse "China is never an aggressor" is a mantra, not a reality
An example here, read carefully that section to see what I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutan#Military_and_foreign_affairs
gouxiong:
To DrMonkey, I am sure you do not want to compare the disputed border teritorries with several neighbours (on top of Bhutan there is South China Sea territories and thus having the dispute with Vietnam, Philippines, Taiwan and probably the most visible now with Japan) wit hthe situation which was created in North Africa, Middle East and part of Balkan. The clear double standard of US and EU diplomacy - Kosovo became independent because inhabitants wanted it but Crimea cannot because it's part of a country (well, the simple fact that Kosovo was too is for sake of the outcome neglected). And while saying that Eastern Ukraine has no right to become independent (as it's part of one country) a lot of EU and US politicians support Uygurs separatists ...Shocking! China is usually trying to avoid such a double standard approaches what certainly serves them well. China is certainly not the type of 'democracy' as we know it from Europe and I assume they also do not want to become one - what I can fully understand ... But China is certainly a strong, powerful, dynamic and well organzied country and all indicates they will protect their interests where necessary - they are certainly not pacifists if this is what you wanted to say ...
DrMonkey:
US/EU being irresponsible hypocrites with double standards, yes, I completely agree. So are Russia and China, with a lesser budget, and thus lesser consequences ^^ Now, in the detail of your argument
* EU supporting Uighur separatists, WTF. EU bend over as much as possible for promise of contracts of China, Uighurs are just a pet cause for intellectual-wannabes. So far, it rarely goes beyond "hey China, how about you listen a bit to them, just *listen*", and that's just in the media, not in the diplomacy.
* Ukraine. Sure, Russia annex a whole province knowing nobody would move a finger. Then they send soldiers to help rebels to separate. EU just sit worried to see the Russian a bit closer. No annexation, no soldiers sent, just couting the points and trying to mediate some dialog. Look at Georgia (or Transnitria/Moldavia) a few years ago to understand why Ukraine situation gives the willies.
ScotsAlan:
The Ukraine is interesting Dr M, in that we see different tactics used. Angela Merkel says diplomacy. Obama says he will arm the fighters. Angela seems to have more sway with Putin than Obama. Putin will not back down from a fight, Angela is doing her best to stop the fight.
But yeah, it's all two faced political stuff on both sides of the fence.
But I reckon the German Chancellor has the edge in having a genuine desire to prevent the death and destruction of innocent people.
Obama just needs to be seen as a strong President to appease his doubters at home.
China is different of course, because it's the Chinese Government that decides what the people should be irate about. It could be Japanese history books or a few rocks off the coast of a distant country. It can raise it's people like a storm surge on a spring tide, then the next day shake hands with the "enemy" to cheers all round.
I'm not sure what is really the best to be honest. But lets face it, anything is better than having the people of a certain Himalayan country being kept in the middle ages so that "spiritual" movie stars have somewhere "nice" to go their holidays.
That's a different subject of course. And I won't mention it again.
gouxiong:
DrMonkey, Every country in this world which is successfully surviving must be pragmatic. That also include protecting of own interests by using certain not exactly "best" methods. My point was that your comparison of US and EU war actions, which resulted in big parts of this world being brought to chaos acompanied by huge huge amount of innocent casualties with relatively minor border dispute sounded strange ... What concerns of Ukraine so the situation is much more complex. You may know that Crimea never wanted to be part of Ukraine and after the collapse of USSR they declared independency. Later agreed to stay with Ukraine but always fought for autonomy and still trying to reconnect with Russia. There is really nobody who would question that in the referendum over 90% of population wanted to join Russia. The rest of Ukraine is since beginning a bit unstable because there quite clear clash between its Ukrainian speaking and Russian speaking population. It happened so that the Russian speaking part inhabits economically the most important parts of Ukraine and therefore the simple split into two different countries was never acceptable for Ukrainian speaking part. However it all escalated when last Ukrainian president (by the way ellected, as per EU opinion and confirmation, in free election) was overthrown mainly because he selected to sign agreement rather with Russia than with EU claiming it's for Ukraine more advantageous. One of the first steps of the new, not elected, parlament was to cancel Russian language to be one of two Ukraine official languages - together with Ukrainian (Russian and Ukrainian speakers are about 50:50). That led to escalation of the conflict and all indicates now that irrespective of Ukraine eastern provinces future this conflict will lead, sooner or later, to country separation. I must say that I quite admire Angela Merkel for her effort to avoid further escalation because no weapons can solve the problem - you cannot put almost half of the population into "jail". I am more shocked how many politicians would like to escalate the war. None of these politicians however says how can they secure the peaceful coexistence of Ukrainians and Russians when the war would end (if it would end) Honestly I am quite worried about this situation. And I am pretty sure that Russia is not happy about it either despite of so much blame on Putin... It's clear that US and to certain extent also EU is relatively happy with their unchallenged position in the world after USSR collapse. But the situation has already changed and we shall acknowledge that. Russia is a powerful country and currently stabilized by Putin (he really enjoys well over 50% population support). No wonder he wants for Russia to play bigger role in the world. Same applies for China who in last decades became superpower and also wants to influence the world. This can of course happen just on the account of current "leaders" - US and partly EU. But these two, instead of acknowledging it and trying to find mutually acceptable solution are stubbornly insisting on unsustainable status quo - even risking the war. What will then happen some time later when India and Brazil will ask for their share? In that aspect I find China policy as relatively logical, pragmatic and certainly smarter than US and EU one.
gouxiong:
ScotsAlan, I think the main problem is that China population is huge. That means that all groups have plenty of members so to say. What I mean is that in case 4% of population are homosexuals so in case of China it means over 50 million people - that's more than majority of EU countries population. What I want to say that with, for sake of example, 10% smart ones, 10% dumb ones, 10% criminals and 10% altruists you always get huge amount of people. China proved that her leaders are highly capable - there cannot be any doubt about that. But that of course does not mean that all is done correctly. But that is also not in any other country in the world. Generally we can see China to become stronger and majority of Chinese people living gradually better life. I would call it success. And what concerns of by you mentioned Hymalayan country I would recommend to everyone to check the situation there during very very short "independency"... As you said - pure slavery, may be worse than how we learn about it in ancient Rome ... On top of that I see it more as natural historical development. There was the time in the history when this kingdom dominated over at that time "China" Now it's vice versa and I assume to mutual benefit. But of course there will always be people who will not like it but I am convinced they are just minority and it's not coincidence that a lot of them are monks - previous ruling cast ...
I enjoy the political part of it.
It's a never ending game of trying to figure out if China is an underdog or a financial giant. I enjoy watching western politicians change policy as they fight over votes, while Chinese politicians take a more passive view of the world as they work away at their "plan".
Politically, I am personally affected by the one child policy. I already have a Chinese child here so we cant have another one. Yes we can pay a fine or have another baby and declare it as a foreigner, but I am one of those people who think this policy is ok.
But above all, I am happy to pay my tax to a Government who are not using it to bomb innocent people in foreign countries. Yeah, of course there is repression, but it's not under a remote controlled armed drone. My tax money might be going towards proping up corrupt regimes to ensure supplies of materials, but in my view that is better than it being spent to bomb and kill innocent kids in the name of freedom.
I detest the way wars become vote winners in the west. China gets my vote for not dropping bombs on people, and it's policy of asking other nations not to.
dokken:
if al qaeda set up bases in order to attack china dotted all over a country, let's say indonesia, and the indonesian government refused to do anything about them and even supported them, pretty sure china would wipe indonesia from the map. they would bomb them to oblivion or even go nuclear. that would then be a popular decision among the chinese people.
Englteachted:
Dokken: You are right but I want to add one thing. Those threats were allowed to come into the country (France/ USA) . And in America's case, we essentially started it. No one wants to hear this. But the truth is, if the people didn't want us to set up bases in their country(s) then we shouldn't. Also we out right interfere with their governments. In Iran we overthrow their democratically elected government and installed a dictator that was so harsh and brutal the people allowed this current regime to seize power. And then we followed it up with the Iraq lies and invasion.
America created these Muslim terrorists, funded them, armed them and gave them motivation.
So what you said is actually true and a good point with regards to China but that is not the whole story when it comes to the states.
ScotsAlan:
There is only one place that China has said it would bomb and we all know where that is.
I think the scenario dokken describes about would not happen. I think Indonesia is a bad example of course, but if some "rogue" state took a dislike to China, the China would talk to them. With the cash China has, nobody would ignore them.
Lord_hanson:
@scots, you make it sound like it is the method of killing and not the killing you disagree with. Would you prefer soldiers gunning down people instead? @englteachted, I think islamic holy texts being manipulated is not Americas fault. The muslim world was just more interested in destroying Isreal instead of America.
coineineagh:
@Alan: you don't know that China is investing massively in drones? the 1 million strong army is mainly for nationalistic showing-off; they can't complete a 12 day traning exercise without lining up at the infirmary and calling in for "Cultural Performers" for KTV night. the navy and airforce are just as much a joke. but the swarms of drones that are being built would cause massive collateral damage to the countries around them if war were declared. it's the CCP's coward tactic of holding civilians hostage to preserve their regime. when i told my wife this, she said "good", as if CCP represents her interests in any way. i need to get my family out of this delusional country.
ScotsAlan:
Oh come on coin. Chinese spending on defence is a fraction of what the USA spends.
China already has the bomb, it has ballistic missiles, it has an active space programme and it has displayed it's ability to destroy objects in space.
But it's not actually using this equipment. It's not actually bombing anyone, nor shooting anyone.
DrMonkey:
They don't bomb, but they don't respect sovereignty of their smaller neighborhood. The discourse "China is never an aggressor" is a mantra, not a reality
An example here, read carefully that section to see what I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutan#Military_and_foreign_affairs
gouxiong:
To DrMonkey, I am sure you do not want to compare the disputed border teritorries with several neighbours (on top of Bhutan there is South China Sea territories and thus having the dispute with Vietnam, Philippines, Taiwan and probably the most visible now with Japan) wit hthe situation which was created in North Africa, Middle East and part of Balkan. The clear double standard of US and EU diplomacy - Kosovo became independent because inhabitants wanted it but Crimea cannot because it's part of a country (well, the simple fact that Kosovo was too is for sake of the outcome neglected). And while saying that Eastern Ukraine has no right to become independent (as it's part of one country) a lot of EU and US politicians support Uygurs separatists ...Shocking! China is usually trying to avoid such a double standard approaches what certainly serves them well. China is certainly not the type of 'democracy' as we know it from Europe and I assume they also do not want to become one - what I can fully understand ... But China is certainly a strong, powerful, dynamic and well organzied country and all indicates they will protect their interests where necessary - they are certainly not pacifists if this is what you wanted to say ...
DrMonkey:
US/EU being irresponsible hypocrites with double standards, yes, I completely agree. So are Russia and China, with a lesser budget, and thus lesser consequences ^^ Now, in the detail of your argument
* EU supporting Uighur separatists, WTF. EU bend over as much as possible for promise of contracts of China, Uighurs are just a pet cause for intellectual-wannabes. So far, it rarely goes beyond "hey China, how about you listen a bit to them, just *listen*", and that's just in the media, not in the diplomacy.
* Ukraine. Sure, Russia annex a whole province knowing nobody would move a finger. Then they send soldiers to help rebels to separate. EU just sit worried to see the Russian a bit closer. No annexation, no soldiers sent, just couting the points and trying to mediate some dialog. Look at Georgia (or Transnitria/Moldavia) a few years ago to understand why Ukraine situation gives the willies.
ScotsAlan:
The Ukraine is interesting Dr M, in that we see different tactics used. Angela Merkel says diplomacy. Obama says he will arm the fighters. Angela seems to have more sway with Putin than Obama. Putin will not back down from a fight, Angela is doing her best to stop the fight.
But yeah, it's all two faced political stuff on both sides of the fence.
But I reckon the German Chancellor has the edge in having a genuine desire to prevent the death and destruction of innocent people.
Obama just needs to be seen as a strong President to appease his doubters at home.
China is different of course, because it's the Chinese Government that decides what the people should be irate about. It could be Japanese history books or a few rocks off the coast of a distant country. It can raise it's people like a storm surge on a spring tide, then the next day shake hands with the "enemy" to cheers all round.
I'm not sure what is really the best to be honest. But lets face it, anything is better than having the people of a certain Himalayan country being kept in the middle ages so that "spiritual" movie stars have somewhere "nice" to go their holidays.
That's a different subject of course. And I won't mention it again.
gouxiong:
DrMonkey, Every country in this world which is successfully surviving must be pragmatic. That also include protecting of own interests by using certain not exactly "best" methods. My point was that your comparison of US and EU war actions, which resulted in big parts of this world being brought to chaos acompanied by huge huge amount of innocent casualties with relatively minor border dispute sounded strange ... What concerns of Ukraine so the situation is much more complex. You may know that Crimea never wanted to be part of Ukraine and after the collapse of USSR they declared independency. Later agreed to stay with Ukraine but always fought for autonomy and still trying to reconnect with Russia. There is really nobody who would question that in the referendum over 90% of population wanted to join Russia. The rest of Ukraine is since beginning a bit unstable because there quite clear clash between its Ukrainian speaking and Russian speaking population. It happened so that the Russian speaking part inhabits economically the most important parts of Ukraine and therefore the simple split into two different countries was never acceptable for Ukrainian speaking part. However it all escalated when last Ukrainian president (by the way ellected, as per EU opinion and confirmation, in free election) was overthrown mainly because he selected to sign agreement rather with Russia than with EU claiming it's for Ukraine more advantageous. One of the first steps of the new, not elected, parlament was to cancel Russian language to be one of two Ukraine official languages - together with Ukrainian (Russian and Ukrainian speakers are about 50:50). That led to escalation of the conflict and all indicates now that irrespective of Ukraine eastern provinces future this conflict will lead, sooner or later, to country separation. I must say that I quite admire Angela Merkel for her effort to avoid further escalation because no weapons can solve the problem - you cannot put almost half of the population into "jail". I am more shocked how many politicians would like to escalate the war. None of these politicians however says how can they secure the peaceful coexistence of Ukrainians and Russians when the war would end (if it would end) Honestly I am quite worried about this situation. And I am pretty sure that Russia is not happy about it either despite of so much blame on Putin... It's clear that US and to certain extent also EU is relatively happy with their unchallenged position in the world after USSR collapse. But the situation has already changed and we shall acknowledge that. Russia is a powerful country and currently stabilized by Putin (he really enjoys well over 50% population support). No wonder he wants for Russia to play bigger role in the world. Same applies for China who in last decades became superpower and also wants to influence the world. This can of course happen just on the account of current "leaders" - US and partly EU. But these two, instead of acknowledging it and trying to find mutually acceptable solution are stubbornly insisting on unsustainable status quo - even risking the war. What will then happen some time later when India and Brazil will ask for their share? In that aspect I find China policy as relatively logical, pragmatic and certainly smarter than US and EU one.
gouxiong:
ScotsAlan, I think the main problem is that China population is huge. That means that all groups have plenty of members so to say. What I mean is that in case 4% of population are homosexuals so in case of China it means over 50 million people - that's more than majority of EU countries population. What I want to say that with, for sake of example, 10% smart ones, 10% dumb ones, 10% criminals and 10% altruists you always get huge amount of people. China proved that her leaders are highly capable - there cannot be any doubt about that. But that of course does not mean that all is done correctly. But that is also not in any other country in the world. Generally we can see China to become stronger and majority of Chinese people living gradually better life. I would call it success. And what concerns of by you mentioned Hymalayan country I would recommend to everyone to check the situation there during very very short "independency"... As you said - pure slavery, may be worse than how we learn about it in ancient Rome ... On top of that I see it more as natural historical development. There was the time in the history when this kingdom dominated over at that time "China" Now it's vice versa and I assume to mutual benefit. But of course there will always be people who will not like it but I am convinced they are just minority and it's not coincidence that a lot of them are monks - previous ruling cast ...
China politics do not interfere with my life here, as political life is non-existent. There's no political life, politics is not something for the people, end of the line. And if you dare step that line too loudly, off to the jail.
China politics affects my mood a lot, however:
* The heavy censorship, official censorship and self-censorship, suffocates me. I'm spend years surrounded by artists and scientists free to do whatever they feel to do. Debates were fine, and it was done with a responsible attitude. It was in France and in Vietnam (Hanoi's cultural life is amazing). I miss this so, so, so much. I also see the waste of talents it creates in China. So much motivation and youthful energy that end-up crushed, to become zombies hooked to their phones.
* At least 4 generations of people used to have no say in anything about their public and social life... what sense of responsibility and community you would expect from that ? When I see the typical WTF around, I feel I know where it comes from, and I feel grounded a bit more.
I work in ecommerce, I have to use Google, Facebook and twitter amongst others simply because that what my customers are using. The retarded insecurity of the government doesn't make it easy for me.
Second, I'm a fairly young male in good shape, never smoked in my life and yet I cough like a old chain smoker, I blame the wonderful environmental policy of this country.
