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Q: Do you think all foreign English teachers should be IELTS tested before being employed?
The way I see it, if you are not proficient in English, you should not be teaching it.
Perhaps the cut-off mark could be IELTS 7.0 or a similar score in a similar testing method.
Alternatively, pay rates could be set against English proficiency, with those below 7.0 getting lower pay for less responsible positions, on a sliding scale.
no , the ielts tests your ability to use academic english. my value as a native english speaker comes from my understanding of english.
idioms are a big part of english, and many idioms are not included in the ielts or toefl.
knowing when to use words and when not to use words is also vital . in english many words have the same exact meanings but are used in different situations.
also hidden meanings, a woman should never say " i'm coming , i'm wet all over" (she was traveling in the rain) only native english speakers or someone proficient in native english would know why.
many words are not used according to the dictionary definition.
the focus should be on making sure every uni teacher is actually college educated. (training schools, who cares it is more about entertainment )
Traveler:
There are two versions of the IELTS. One is Academic, for people undergoing study in foreign universities or colleges.
The more common General Training Version is used for those training in non-academic situations (jobs), or for immigration to the English speaking countries.
To teach at either level, I think one should be able to demonstrate proficiency at the standard that the students are hoping for. Demonstrations of proficiency require being measured against some standard, other than subjective self-assessment.
Your point that English schools employ entertainers could possibly have some validity. Perhaps, then, they should be employed as entertainers, and not as teachers, and be measured against a different standard.
Shining_brow:
Actually.... only the reading and writing part of the test differentiates between Academic and General. Speaking and Listening is the same test. (while the listening may not be too much of an issue, having a teacher who's only at, say', IELTS 4.0 in speaking would be terrible!)
But, it does raise a point... do you want the teachers to be Academic, or General?? And to what level?
Crimo - idioms are fine! Given you're only going to use certain ones differently in the writing (or read them in the reading), it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I agree with you, but the problem is that may never happen. The demand far outstrips the supply, so they'll usually take anyone with a white face and a degree.
no , the ielts tests your ability to use academic english. my value as a native english speaker comes from my understanding of english.
idioms are a big part of english, and many idioms are not included in the ielts or toefl.
knowing when to use words and when not to use words is also vital . in english many words have the same exact meanings but are used in different situations.
also hidden meanings, a woman should never say " i'm coming , i'm wet all over" (she was traveling in the rain) only native english speakers or someone proficient in native english would know why.
many words are not used according to the dictionary definition.
the focus should be on making sure every uni teacher is actually college educated. (training schools, who cares it is more about entertainment )
Traveler:
There are two versions of the IELTS. One is Academic, for people undergoing study in foreign universities or colleges.
The more common General Training Version is used for those training in non-academic situations (jobs), or for immigration to the English speaking countries.
To teach at either level, I think one should be able to demonstrate proficiency at the standard that the students are hoping for. Demonstrations of proficiency require being measured against some standard, other than subjective self-assessment.
Your point that English schools employ entertainers could possibly have some validity. Perhaps, then, they should be employed as entertainers, and not as teachers, and be measured against a different standard.
Shining_brow:
Actually.... only the reading and writing part of the test differentiates between Academic and General. Speaking and Listening is the same test. (while the listening may not be too much of an issue, having a teacher who's only at, say', IELTS 4.0 in speaking would be terrible!)
But, it does raise a point... do you want the teachers to be Academic, or General?? And to what level?
Crimo - idioms are fine! Given you're only going to use certain ones differently in the writing (or read them in the reading), it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
No, I don't think it should be necessary, unless you are not a native English speaker (in which case it already is). Any native English speaker should score 7 in their sleep and 8 with a little thought. Of course it may be useful if the situation comes about where there are more teachers than positions as then it will help to differentiate, but I think there are more valuable qualifications / skills a potential employer should look for.
I think it is much more important that all teachers, (regardless of subject), should be required to hold a teaching qualification and a qualification at least one level above that which they are teaching in the subject they are going to teach.
So for a British EFL / ESL teacher PGCE / Cert Ed and CELTA / DELTA or some kind of equivalents.
Too many teachers know the language but naff all about how to teach.
Traveler:
Agreed about the teaching qualification, and that's what TESOL and TOEFL certificates are supposed to be about. However, they are easily bought online, and many people, native and non-native speakers, think that a TESOL or TOEFL, bought or photoshopped, magically makes them competent language teachers.
I have met many non-native speakers with such certificates who could not speak a grammatically correct sentence, let alone teach it. And as the law stands now, non-native speakers cannot legally teach. I think, however, that NEAR-native speakers, regardless of country, should be allowed to teach, but TESOL or TOEFL alone do not measure language ability. That is why I think IELTS or similar should be used, to test language ability.
Additionally, I am not so sure that all native speakers would reach IELTS 7.0 The average working vocabulary in Australia is estimated at about 2,000 words, and in some lower socio-economic groups, it could be as low as 7-800. It is similar in other developed countries. This possibly isn't enough to reach IELTS 7.0 even though a native speaker.
I like your idea about having a higher qualification then the level you are teaching at. For a work visa in Australia, IELTS 5.5 is required, so the teacher would need an IELTS score above that. For study, or professions, 7.0 or 7.5 is needed. So language ability is these cases needs to be very high.
Hugh.G.Rection:
Traveler:
First your last point, about vocabulary of native English speakers, I read that an AVERAGE native English speaker knows about 30,000 words and an AVERAGE non-native Intermediate speaker knows about 3,000 words. I don't know the reference, I'm pretty sure I got that on my CELTA course a couple of years ago. I'll try and find a reference later.
I know what you mean about TEOFL TOESL being teaching qualifications and I agree in part, but the point I was trying to make, (not very well apparently) was I believe the teacher training you get from a generic teacher training qualification such as PGCE / Cert Ed should be a minimum as it really teaches you all about teaching, heck in the UK it's a two year course so it should, those are the teaching qualifications I would be looking for (and when in the past I've been asked to help out on recruitment those are what I ask about). The other qualifications TEFL / CELTA etc while admittedly teaching based I would be much more likely to look at as English qualifications as I know from my experience from CELTA that it was as much about the language as teaching.
Of course if a potential teacher cannot speak very well then as an employer I wouldn't employ him / her so I still don't see the NEED for an IELTS test, although I can see no harm in it.
Now, I'm off to try and find that reference:
Edit: OK I was a bit off but not that far, this article - http://iteslj.org/Articles/Cervatiuc-VocabularyAcquisition.html
Quotes 17,000 base words or word families "Base words" are "word families": "A word family consists of a base word and its inflected forms and derivations." (e.g., 'time' includes 'timely,' 'timed,' 'timing,' etc.) Using the 1.6 factor of word families to total words (by Paul Nation, the world expert mentioned in the article), you're looking at about 30,000 words, tops, for the better native speakers receptive vocabulary. Of course it's also talking about college educated people and as in the UK that is only 40% my saying 'AVERAGE' would have to be questioned too.
Shining_brow:
Sorry Traveler, but... 'then'/'than'.... one of my pet language hates (right up there with 'literally', and 'alot'!)
Traveler:
Hugh. The article you refer to is talking about college and university educated people. I was referring to the less educated from the lower end of the socio-economic scale, and even those that didn't attend school. As we are all aware, not all teachers in China have attended college or university, though over time, many think their fake degrees mean they have.
Hugh.G.Rection:
Traveller, yes I realised that and conceded that point in the last line of my reply where I quoted the article.
ambivalentmace:
assuming grammer is done correctly and fluency has some long sentence structure, the 7 score just needs about 3 uncommon vocabulary per part and 2 idioms.
to get the 8 , you need a paraphrase somewhere in your discussion part 2 or 3.
i have students score 7 on this exam and dont feel their english is academic and the writing score usually proves my point.
I completely understand why Traveler has to ask this question. I have TOEFL and other certificates but they were all pieces of litters here in China. I am teaching kindergarten, so I guess, in that level, it is not much needed.
Having previously been a teacher in China for several years and knowing a fair amount about how IELTS works, I would have to say that this is not required. I recently assisted a friend in doing an IELTs mock reading and writing test and struggled with some of the answers, though I was perhaps reading into the text and analysing it too much which as a person with a degree in English language and literature is perhaps unsurprising. They're purely English competency tests (which I apparently failed haha) used for foreign students to examine their ability to study at a high level in English speakng countries. Now with regards to native speakers, as we have subconscious knowledge of the language learning it like that is pretty tough (I look back on English grammar modules at university with horror), and I think in the end IETLS testing would have no reflection on the teaching abilities of potential employees. Though non-native speaker teacher - that's perhaps another story.
To be an IELTS examiner or Director of Studies/manager of teachers etc - yes of course CELTAs and DELTAs are needed, though these qualfications are based around the theories and practices of TEFL/ESL, and perhaps requirements should be stricter for any respected school. I did a crash course TEFL certificate prior to coming to China and apart from apparently "looking good" it didn't prepare me whatsoever for TEFL teaching over here.
Considering most "teaching" jobs are really "dancing laowai monkey" jobs, certification or credentials shouldn't be required for those.
Yes! And not just the FTs... how about the locals?? Especially the locals!!!
A) just being from a native speaking country does not mean you actually know much about the language. If you're going to teach a language, you ought to know about the language... not just what you say and write. So many students ask 'Why?' - you need to be able to say why!
B) at what level of IELTS? After all, it's not a pass/fail... are you expecting them to be... 6? 7? 8? Obviously, if the students are looking to go overseas to study, and the requirement is 6.5 (a fairly common level for many universities), that would mean the teachers need to be at 7.5 (if you want them to be at least 1 rank higher). But.... getting 1 rank higher in 1 test doesn't actually mean they are particularly capable.... they might have just had a good test! This becomes less likely the higher you go... also, they may have done really well in one section, but seriously stuffed up in another...
C) Being able to teach - yeah, that's been said. And it's something that needs to be addressed in China - no online certifications!! No dodgey weekend courses (like the one I did 
)
D) "dancing white monkey"... only because people take those jobs!
IF... the legal requirements were always enforced (BA, TEFL, 2 years experience), then there wouldn't be so many issues with teaching - other than the complete lack of teachers here Also, the pay rates for good quality teachers would skyrocket! And so would the level of respect given to the career.
(before anyone jumps on me about what credentials one needs for kindergartens or primary schools... what sort of creds do you need back home? In my country, it's at least a 3 year degree...)
MissA:
A former student of mine wanted to take the IELTS so she could qualify to enrol in the CELTA (she was, obviously, non-native) and she needed 7.5 before any school would consider her. I think that's a reasonable minimum.
I think teachers should be tested thoroughly, but then if they were i'd have never made it through the front door, when I first taught here I was an awful teacher. It's not just about being able to speak English properly though, not by a long shot. There's also way too little concern shown to the kind of guidelines that ought to be laid down to foreign teachers coming here and winging their way through such a position of responsibility as many of us hold. Particularly with young children. This is something which concerns me deeply.
Yes. Although I'd say 7.5 at the very least - that's the minimum cut off to take the CELTA.
I'd say it would depend wholly on the ages and levels a person teaches. Why would anyone need a degree, CELTA, TEFL, or similar to stand in a class and shout "Apple", and "Banana", to a group of five-year-olds? Maybe a childcare qualification, or a nursery school diploma would be a better document.
I think there is far too much snobbishness that surrounds some English teachers in China. I have no degree or TEFL qualification, but my English is way above any I have seen coming from anyone that has these qualifications and my classes are fantastic. I can teach all ages and all levels. A BA in Farmyard Management does not mean your English is going to be good. I am frequently amazed and often disturbed at the overall level of English - oral and written - presented by these university graduates.
People need to get off their high horses and ask themselves why - if they are so talented in the field of English teaching - are they wasting their time working in China. A lot of you are fools, waltzing around with heads up backsides and looking down on anyone you deem to be unsuitably qualified.
It doesn't bother the Chinese, so why should it bother you?
Traveler:
The Chinese government sets laws about who can teach English, and you think it is OK to march into their country and tell them to get stuffed.
Basically you are an unskilled and illegal immigrant, who condones people lying about their skills and qualifications to work with young children.
boomsticks:
Pedro, I've read some of your points elsewhere and have agreed with your insights on a lot of issues. Good perspectives.
Similarly, here I agree with your view regarding the snobbishness and 'head up backside' attitude of some teachers in China, albeit they are a relatively select few.
However, @Traveler is right. His tone may be a touch severe, but nevertheless, regardless of your abilities as a teacher (and I've no doubt you're a capable one), you're still breaking immigration laws in teaching here with no degree, regardless of the degree's applicability or lack thereof in helping you teach English.
Furthermore, at the risk of sounding like a snob myself, I actually think that for the most part, a person who has studied a degree in any subject, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING RELATIVELY EQUAL, is a better teacher than someone who hasn't. Yes, yes, I'm aware of the 'school of hard knocks' argument, and I'd readily concede that many non-degree takers may have better entrepreneurial abilities, for example, than many degree takers, but in the sphere of TESOL, I think having taken the time to complete a 3 or 4 year degree gives you a significant advantage. Of course, there are exceptions, (and I've no doubt you are one), but I still think on the most part, a college education in anything confers an advantage in TESOL teaching.
Pedro123:
1.Traveler: I'd agree with illegal, but certainly not with unskilled.
The Chinese laws? Let's get real here. We all know about the Chinese and their stringent adherence to their laws. I'd guess the majority of scummy, ill-educated and unprofessional dancing baboons currently working in China are employed by Chinese agencies more than happy to exploit the system - and drag someone half way across the planet to screw them too. The Chinese Government have happily allowed me to spend the best part of two years hopping back and forth to Hong Kong to obtain fresh tourist visas. Under no circumstances am I prepared to entertain the notion they believed I wasn't working. It's too worn a path and we know how the Chinese love to monitor and keep an eye on things. Who's playing who?
2. Boomsticks: Maybe there should be a stipulation that the degree be language and/or learning-based. It's possible now in England to take a degree in stand-up comedy. Perhaps that would be more suitable. How about a non-native speaker with a degree, as opposed to a native speaker without? Which would you employ first?
3. Harryjohn and Bill8899: You know how it is.....
4. General Ramblings: Ask yourselves WHY China is such a draw for ESL Teachers. I'm not seeing the same trend appearing in Brazil nor India. Maybe I'm not looking. Do we choose China BECAUSE it's a relatively easy touch?
I'm not saying the system is right. I'm just saying what I feel from my experience. Perhaps use your skills and passion trying somewhere blighted by poverty; somewhere where you can make a REAL difference. Unless you have a particular passion for China then my immediate thoughts are that you are there because it's an easy option.
I'm not an ogre - just a little bad-tempered at times. As a demonstration of my lighter side I shall finish on a lighter note. My last thoughts revolve around more suitable degrees and qualifications to work in China as an ESL performing seal. Here are some of my own suggestions. Feel free to add your own.
Restaurant Window Table Management.
Small Sock Sciences.
Standing Excretion.
KTV Geography and Logistical Planning.
Counterfeiting: Tobacco and Alcohol Recognition Modules.
Do have a good day!
Pedro.
A qualification test for native speakers should consist of only 2 questions:
1. Do you have patience?
2. Do you really care about your students?
If you have answered affirmatively to these questions, you are qualified to teach in China.
Traveler:
Many of these "teachers" have lied about their skills and qualifications so they can work illegally in China. Do you think they would answer these questions honestly?
Also, self-assessment of affective personality traits is hardly an accurate measurement of a person's language skills.
xinyuren:
Apply that same question to your own proposal. Do you think a qualification test will stop dishonest people from cheating or paying their way along? There is no solution for dishonesty. Rule breakers don't worry about qualifications. Real teaching is about patience and caring. Find a way to pick persons with those qualities out of the forest and you have your solution.
Hulk:
I agree with you, xinyuren.
People who are patient and who care about their students are exactly what China needs. Do we really need more monkeys who just keep the students laughing without actually teaching them anything?
Traveler:
What we need are people who are trained how to teach, and have a high skill level in what they are teaching. Self professed good intentions alone count for nothing.
*ok, my comment was too dumb. I decided to remove it.
Traveler:
Gee gosh. If everybody removed their dumb comments, there'd be precious little left 
Hey traveler,
I think you are full of shit. You should be tested because you are a farmer or a drug addict or a runner with no education or degree. Or maybe you bought your degree in kaoshan road in thailand ended up a nice post recruiting foreigners in China , and since you are afraid to be fired then you wanted other foreigners to be tested with IELTS... go first.. take the IELTS.
some foreigners that are native English teachers who ended up in a position in a school handling English departments are just idiots who are on the run of their lives but just because they have blond hair and blue eyes and stupid chinese are after their asses not even knowing if they are qualified teachers.
Also, who is a qualified teacher? Teachers with degree. But in teaching English... they prefer Native even a beggar in New York who can get his ass to China will end up having a position because he speaks English. Tha is how stupid this matter is. SO, Make it a better place to live with... REGARDLESS OF NATIONALITY AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE DEGREE AND EXPERIENCE... YOU ARE QUALIFIED.
