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Q: Do you think you can change China?
I keep hearing 2 things - "When in Rome,,,", and "You can't change anyone here".
Both of which I strongly disagree with.
Firstly, I refuse to become corrupt because that is the local way. Also, I choose to have a heart, and if I saw someone in obvious distress, don't just ignore them.
Secondly, I'm here to teach, which to me, doesn't just mean a language, but also to teach people a better way to be - honour, courage, strength, wisdom, awareness, honesty.
What's YOUR take on "When in Rome"???
It's not a simple black or white thing. You have to stay in the gray area. If you want a chance to make real changes in at least one person's life, you must adapt and conform to a certain degree. You're not going to have a chance to change someone's life and have them learn from you, until they first relate to you and create some kind of trusting bond. Someone that refuses all things roman will always be seen as an outsider and will have an extremely small effect on those he wishes to teach.
Shining_brow:
True - but, just being here, being part of the culture, learning the language, eating the food, visiting the various places, being conversant in things Chinese (TV, books, movies, history, etc) IS part of what you say (I think).... I also agree, if you don't share some connection somewhere, you can't relate at all - and then you have 2 completely foreign ideas conflicting with each other...
Westerners have been going around the world "helping" and "enlightening" the natives since 1415, and how has it added up in the end? And have the "savages" we've come to the charitable aid of (at a hefty profit to ourselves) ended up better off, or worse?
The last time we civilized those barbarian Chinese brutes, we accidentally started off a series of civil wars that led to decades of anarchy and eventually made them easy pickings for the Japanese. Pretty much anything admirable and interesting about Chinese culture was either destroyed during "the hundred year struggle", as the Chinese term it, or destroyed l later in the cultural revolution - Marxism being another lovely gift of ours. Sadly, the only something as extremely as communist overthrow probably would have been the only way to restore order after all the f***ing up of China we enlightened westerners charitably did. And not even a thank you?
But I invite you to give me one example of a people whose happiness and moral character has been vastly improved by western civilizing.
Shining_brow:
"Westerners" have been around a LOT longer than that - and in all that time, the quality of life has steadily increased (and sometimes, not so steadily!) Moral character? Well, we no longer just go off and kill people at the drop of a hat! We have laws for murder, and even manslaughter. Democracy was a 'western' thing (of course, it was a long time ago, but still! And, granted, the various forms of democracy are well and truly up for debate). But surely, you'd have to admit, the levels of migration to 'western' countries could be taken as a fair indicator as to perceived levels of 'happiness' (although, perhaps, not 'moral character'....). Your counter??
kchur:
Most of the migration into English speaking new-world countries was the result of the highland removals, the plantations and famines in Ireland, religious prosecution, or just a plain old fleeing from extreme poverty. The western part of north America was initially settled by outlaws and escaped/freed-but-unable-to-legally-work slaves. Happy happy joy joy!
kchur:
Oh, you mean recent immigration? Like in the last few decades? Well, I guess the same reason China was flooded with immigrants during the early Tang dynasty: money.
I don't know why people always want to "change" things to have them suit their own way of thinking... This seems to be common to many westerners and somewhat pretentious. There is not one universal way to think and the western one is not better than the others, it's just different and adapted to the situation and mentality in the west, as those of Africa or Asia are adapted to their respective continents. Foreigners in Europe or America are supposed to follow the "when in Rome" principle there, so why shouldn't the Europeans and Americans follow it when they become the foreigners ?
If you want absolutely want to change something in people I think YOU have to change first to show that if you can adopt some of their customs or habits, they can as well.
You sound like the stereotypical arrogant Westerner. Your way is different, is it better? That's a subjective question. You're in another country with another culture and trying to force your views and way of life on the people is rude and pretentious. If you don't like the way people are in China then perhaps it isn't for you. If Chinese people can't change China then it's doubtful a foreigner will have much of an impact.
I will share with you my philosophy, which is very personal to me and has brought me many good friendships and respect from many different nationalities.
When I travel to visit, or live in another counrty away from home, I make a point of learning their customs, culture and traditions, and to respect them and obey them as the only way to have them respect me.
I do not loose one milimeter of my personality in doing so, I am still same old me. But, by showing deference to their customs, culture and tradition, and adopting those who are acceptable to me, by keeping to myself in public what I dislike about the country I happen to be in at the time, I am accepted by natives with open arms, and allow to develop true friendships.
Here in China, no matter who says what, I will not spit outdoors or pick my nose anywhere I feel like, nor I will make comments or faces to those doing it. Like that, many other things, like dpo not get involved in conversations of political or religious content with locals. Never claim that my way of life is better than theirs, bacause after all, I am a guest here, this is not my home.
Corruption exists everywhere, there is not one country without corrupted officials. hy become upset because China has them too.
What gives you the right to proclame here that you have the absolute truth in regards to honour, courage, strength, wisdom, awareness, honesty ?. Become a bit more humble yourself, every society (or every barrel) has a few rotten apples in it, remember that ?
Shining_brow:
A question for you, HappyExpat... if you saw a guy beating up on his girl here in China, what would you do? What would you have done in Foshan? What if you were a teacher, and caught students cheating? The "When in Rome" crowd would have us just watch and enjoy, walk past and ignore, and try extortion, respectively. I do not suggest any one nation, society or people, have got it all right... but I am certainly capable of differentiating between what is effective, and what is not... what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' (in many different circumstances). ALL cultures, ALL individuals effect every other that they come in contact with, in any small or large way. By what you do - or don't do - people will be affected.
HappyExPat:
Shining Brow: My reaction to your question will depend where I am, if in USA (back home), and I see a person attacking a girl, I will call 911 and after intervene. Here in China, maybe the most I will do is yell at the attacker, after calling for help, mI will not physically intervene. And if I were a teacher (which I am not) and caught my students cheating, back home I will remove the exam or whatever from them, report them to the school principal or the Honor Council, whichever is proper. Here, I will ask what is normal before I start teaching, so I will be prepared to react as expected. What some do not think to realize is that I can not react here according to my values, I must react according to their norm and values. After all, it is their country, not mine, and I am just a guest here. Back home, will you tell the owner of a house you are visiting to stop smoking in front of you, Politness say you either put up with it or leave silently. See, I will do the same here, if not in agreement with smoking in my presence.
If you came here thinking you are going to change the Chinese then you are delusional.
Are you a Christian missionary from Dallas? (just kidding)
I do my best to adapt to local customs, and they appreciate this, but I never compromise my values during the process.
It is one thing to lead by example, it is entirely different if you are preaching your so called superior morals, and offending people. This will have the opposite effect of what you intended.
Shining_brow:
Actually, I already have! We all have... Every action done, every word spoken, in the presence of another person effects a change in them - no matter how small... and sometimes - great! You tell your co-workers how horrified and disgusted you are by the Foshan girl Yue, and it will have an effect on them. You tell them that people shitting on the sidewalk is a good way to breed disease, and it will have an effect. Change is inevitable - except from a vending machine!
thedude:
Are you fresh out of college and this is the first foreign place you have lived? Do you REALLY think sitting on a sidewalk creates disease??
thedude:
Ok my bad, but to this day I have never seen a local shit on the sidewalk, although I hear it here all the time.
kikoya:
same with me... everybody talks about that but I've never actually witnessed it
Xpat.John:
Seen it several times in the past 5 years. Of course, that particular type of... I have only seen performed by children (6 & under). However, there is also normally an adult nearby encouraging them to perform the act.
No person (or group of people) can change the habits of an entire country. It just isn't possible. That goes the same for any foreigner visiting any country.
However, that doesn't mean that we have to give up on our habits and principals when living in another country. But, a great deal of cultural awareness and flexibility must be performed on our part or the differences will just drive you crazy.
Earlier you asked whether or not a previous poster would have also walked past the 2 year old girl in Foshan. I wouldn't, but at the same time I can understand why a number of people did. Between the legal system and local scams that people are witness to on a daily basis, it is safer to look the other way then get involved if you are a local. The danger is much lower if you are a foreigner due to the lack of desire to cause an international incident.
However, I do know of foreign teachers who called out students for blatant cheating and the later they were severly beaten by a "random group of thugs" that had nothing to do with the cheater (or their family) paying them to beat the teacher for the loss of face caused them.
There are real dangers to standing out here, especially for the locals. Don't confuse self preservation with callousness. Life hear can cause a hard heart in anyone.
Come on you little cowards. Don't just vote me down, give me a counter-example. We westerners have been helping to civilize the primitives for 587 years and surely there must be one ethnic group of the hundreds who has appreciated the kind generosity of those us us who've taken up the white man's burden. Don't be an anonymous coward - it's not befitting of your superior value system.
Anyway, wen't down to the reserve yesterday and was all like "Hey, you primitive savages used to live freely off of the abundant fishing in this area, and enjoy peace via the natural defences the mountains provided. Now you if you leave your 5 square kilometre reserve, everyone screams racial insults at you. You can't fish anymore because the straight is essentially lifeless due to industry you've never been allowed to have a part in, and game has been thinned to nil. WHERE'S MY 'THANK YOU' YOU BARBARIC BRUTES!?" The ones that weren't on meth got pretty angry at me which just goes to show: no good deed goes unpunnished.
Shining_brow:
ok Kchur - I'll bite - why do you use '587 years'?? Humans from all over the world have been in contact with each other for thousands of years - each slowly changing and influencing each other for that amount of time (to a greater or lesser degree). A more realistic question would be - do laws such as the French "Good Samaritan law" have a more beneficial effect, a negligible effect, or a negative effect on the well-being of people in France? Do similar laws in countries that have similar law have similar effects? Is adopting a strong anti-corruption justice system better or worse than a society and justice system that allows corruption? Have anti-racism attitudes - the ones that have changed in many nations over many years - had a beneficial or non-beneficial effect? Should I continue with other examples?? I know, it's incredibly easy to point out the flaws of many things - but try, just try, to see SOME positives... blinkers are bad for all people!
kchur:
Well, as for the time thing: http://books.google.com/books?id=Z3m9zdZ00NsC. You can get it free if you can read Portuguese. You remind me a lot of that guy. Except that with half a millennium of retrospect, his whole "build churches, kill muslims, kiss relics, pray to fight demonic invasion of the body" idea of morality seems a tad dated. Actually, with a world view that simple, and living in a country that was coming to rule the world economically (for a short time at least), he was probably a lot happier than we are.
you're forgetting one important fact shining. you are an outsider, you know absoluting nothing in the eyes of a local. when they say all these nice complimentary things about you they are BSing you. here, they insult you with compliments. whats your 60 years of history compared to their 6000 years of history.
when you tell someone that mercury is a poison and will kill you, they will nod their head and say yes and then put what you said out of mind because you are just a "dumb ghost" when you talk to people about how horrifying the murder and neglect of that child was they will nod their heads and agree and then will comeback with an excuse as to why that is. because in their mind you lack understanding of chinese culture you thinking is flawed because you are an outsider, but they playcate to what you say because you must be treated like a child. you are not changing anything they are just giving you the response they know you want to hear
that is why some make the comments that what you said is delusional or naive. what you are saying does not factor in the reality of this country.because after spending some time here you will see people are stuck in their ways and view foreigners as less than human
Shining_brow:
Ok, I get where you're coming from... but I still disagree! Why? Because this country DOES change! The people in it DO change. And at least some of that influence comes from outside the country - or at least, from other people. (Btw, no, locals DON'T "say all these nice complimentary things about me"....). I have NO expectation of this country changing overnight... but I DO think that on an individual level, we have had SOME influence on SOME of the people... just as some have had an influence on us. History is FULL of inter-cultural changes - it's called 'life'. (btw - what was 'your 60 years of history' in reference to? Only thing I can think of is... since the Cultural Destruction - which, of course, would be quite appropriate!) But, I'm afraid my main - and original - question has been diverted a little - it was 'When in Rome..." - yes or no?
crimochina:
many chinese are taught and still believe that western countries only have 60 years of history
Shining_brow:
Crimochina - ftr, I've never heard any Chinese suggest such a thing... interesting! Where did you hear it from? I HAVE, however, heard of China being only 60 years - since the '49 Revolution.
It's not your job to change people in China. That sort of thing should come from the Chinese themselves. We are outsiders, we are here on visas, and if we make too much noise, we're kicked out. I think that you can make a difference with your friends, but chances are they're already in a similar state of mind to you, and so there's not much to change anyway. You can lead by example, but in a year or so, you will probably be gone, and they will fondly remember you as that crazy foreigner. Then they will forget what you taught them and go on with their lives.
So don't try too hard. You'll burst a brain vessel, and that doesn't help anyone... Or do you think you are some shining knight who is a perfect gentleman and knows what they need to learn to be better people? You are not their parents, you are not their normal teacher, you are not someone who has a lot of influence in their lives. Continue to be yourself, there's no reason to change that. However, your reason of coming to China was probably not to better the population, but to grow as a person and learn something new. Stick to your original intent. And if a little of something good in you rubs off on some people here, then great, but you're no hero.
When in Rome... ?
Yes & no. Yes you need to adapt to the Roman way. No you do not have to participate in the parts you do not care for. Yes you need to obey the Roman laws. No you don't know better than the Romans on what is "best". Yes, through your actions, you MAY influence a Roman every now and then. Of course, that swayed Roman will probably be swayed back to Roman way due to the mass number of Romans they interact with on a regular basis.
Thrust your opinions on the wrong Romans and you may find yourself in the arena.
It is important for you to know that you can't change no one in this world unless they wanted to change themselves.So for the things that you can't change,the best way to live happily is to accept the truth.I think you live in China,so live like chinese.It will be easier to get adapted.
