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Posts: 2536

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Q: Does anyone in China know how to tell the truth?

Really.  I am so sick of the bullshit.
Friends, gf...it does not matter.  They all lie.
Is it face?  Or just a lack of morals?
Is bullshitting taught in schools?  Or by parents?  Is it official government programming?  I need to know.

12 years 7 weeks ago in  Culture - China

 
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Posts: 458

Shifu

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'Truth' is a loose concept, like love. People seem to REALLY believe what they say when they say it, then they change their mind without any logic behind it. Shitting others just seems to be the way things are done. I especially like the answer 'no' to an obvious 'yes' question: 'Did you take my pencil?' 'No.' 'Then why is it in your phukin hand then!?'

Mr_spoon:

It's a "face" concept. Face seems to exist only to make everything worse...

12 years 7 weeks ago
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12 years 7 weeks ago
 
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I do not know, but I find it very fustrating that when I ask questions they go unanswered. I write long emails and i get short ones back, no content really. 

thedude:

It's all smoke and mirrors. They will say as little as they have to.

12 years 7 weeks ago
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12 years 7 weeks ago
 
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I think it is all "face" related...

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12 years 7 weeks ago
 
Posts: 430

Shifu

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The worst thing is I know some foreigners here who have started taking on these lying traits and the concept of "face". I can accept it from Chinese because it's so deeply ingrained in their culture and upbringing, but it's just unacceptable when it's these fake "egg" foreigners (white on outside, wannabe yellow on the inside).

derek:

That is a geat point! It drives me crazy too.

12 years 7 weeks ago
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mattaya:

Ummm...why bring up race in this topic? You said white on outside and yellow on inside. Aren't you black? What you've never seen a dark egg?

12 years 7 weeks ago
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crimochina:

mattaya you are clearly stupid there are brown eggs also.

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12 years 7 weeks ago
 
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It's definitely a face thing, and it's encouraged by everyone and everything around them. After all, in a society where the only wrong is taking the blame, then anything else is ok, if not right. If it's your girlfriend or your friends, they probably do not understand how much it bothers you. Also, they don't have to change for you, because this is their country and they know how to live in it. They'll probably tell you that if you don't like it, you can leave, and it's true, you can. Or you can just keep looking and find better friends.

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12 years 7 weeks ago
 
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For me, I had to work hard to not think it was my fault or it was something I said. I used to take it personally when I finally realized I was lied to. It has been quite an adjustment. However, I still say what I think and cannot openly lie to someones face about everyday topics. If I can't do something, I tell them I can't. I don't send people away thinking I will do something when I know in my heart I will never see them again. Sorry for the vagueness of this post but I think you guys get the idea.

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12 years 7 weeks ago
 
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telling the truth and flat out being upfront and honest in china is consider the behavior of ignorant people. lieing cheating scaming manipulating is done to display how intelligent you are. i know exactly how you  feel i'll give a recent example. i told a girl after seeing her a few times that i was interested in her . i told i liked her and that i wanted to get to know her to pursue a relationship with her. i specified that i understand that she might want to take more time to know me and that's ok. but i ask what she thought. i got back gibberish. next message i was a little bit more clear and outlined 3 options for her to choose (8th grade) 1 continue to get to know me to see if it leads to a relationship. 2. just wanted me as friends. 3. does not want t contact me anymore. the response i got back was i choose no option. but "i like to contact you" sadly everything in china is about lieing , cheating, scamming, manipulating AND BARGAINING!! so as with dealing with a seller on the street i walked away (deleted her from my qq) she came back. still not being honest and upfront. dleted her again, she came back.. about 10 more exchanges (asking the same damn question) and deleting her of my qq 2 more times (get qq 1.2 the later versions allow you to delete your name from their qq as well, this works great!!!!) finally she admits she wants to get know me becoz she is interested in me as well. being honest and up front here is a sign of weakness.  

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12 years 7 weeks ago
 
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All Chinese lie.  It's part of their culture.  Hell, lying is seen as being clever and highly intelligent here.  If you can lie and get away with it, it means you have social skills and will advance and become rich.

The funny thing is, that being honest, straightforward, and showing integrity are signs of weakness and stupidity here.  It's also considered childish.

I'm not kidding.

In western countries, we have what are called "virtue ethics".  Honesty is held in the highest regard and is the basis for many things.  China doesn't have this system.  Again, lying is done on a daily basis, it is expected and considered clever - it's about face and out-manuvering.  How smart you are is almost hand in hand with how well you can lie.

Of course, this is a major clashing point between most of the world and Asian cultures based on Confucionism, but most notably in mainlan China.  Where other Asian cultures have learned to adopt to the west (they discovered that westerners actually mean what they say and will - whether or not they agree with it, they understand it and they have adopted different rules for dealing with foreigners - look at Korea; it's probably a MORE Confucian society than China, lying is rampant amongst Korean to Korean dealings - but they have learned to work and follow western principles when dealing with the west - they know it's more profitable).  In China, they just think you are inferior and stupid.  Especially Americans.  As a principle, Americans are straightforward and we mean what we say.  We do things like honor and follow contracts (for the majority) and the same goes for most other countries.  If an Australian person (or Dutch, or German, or French, or Canadian, etc.) person and I make a deal, I'm 99.9% sure they will honor it to the agreed terms. 

A Chinese person will not.  They will lie, cheat, steal - anything to achieve their aims and goals.  The problem here is that this is not considered "bad".  It's expected, viewed as clever, and almost like a game to see who can outmanuever the other.  Because foreigners DON'T do this, we are dumb children.  This attitude will actually be the downfall of China's economic growth.

The beauty of this is simple.  You KNOW they think you are stupid.  So, lie your ass off at any given opportunity.  You know they will NEVER be honest with you, so why bother?  Honesty earns respect in western culture and Chinese people can't, won't, and possibly will never understand that because it is a MAJOR cultural difference.

Hell, China even bold faced lied to get entry into the WTO and now they just don't bother with any of the agreements.  This is going to change shortly as incomes go up here and manufacturing leaves (which it is already doing).  China's attitude and dealings will leave it with 2 options.
1.)  Freely open the gates for imported products and honor their WTO agreements or 2.)  Shut off from the world again.  Guess what they'll pick?

Anyway, assume you are always being lied to and lie right back.  Your goal is to 100% catch someone lying, pull them aside, and call them on it.  Tell them you won't tell anyone and you'll even help defend their lie.  That's how you build guanxi.  Cultural dealings here are almost entirely based on lying and face, so just play along for now.

What China doesn't realize is that while they think they are superior and clever, they are being played like a fiddle by western countries.  Everything that is going on (and their BS predictions of massive awesomeness) has been finely set in motion for the sheer purpose of opening consumer markets to the largest population on Earth.  Help raise the economy to create consumers, get them to a point where the population has disposable income, then kick them out of bed and leave them begging for more.

They don't realize this because another, even more dangerous aspect of the culture here, is the inability to use forethought and think about the future.  1000rmb today is better than 10,000rmb tomorrow.  In 20 years, the only foreign companies here will be consumer market related - as they continue to screw over everyone and everything, businesses will stop dealing with them (already happening) and all that's left is foreign companies selling stuff to the Chinese.  Which was the goal to begin with.  Thier system was inflitrated, used and abused, made to seem like they had the upper hand...  But ultimately, they will be standing around saying "oh crap, how did this happen?  Well, let's go get some KFC." when it all comes crashing down.

Have fun with it for now because you probably won't want to (or can't) stay here in another decade or so.

Shining_brow:

"1.) Freely open the gates for imported products and honor their WTO agreements or 2.) Shut off from the world again. Guess what they'll pick?" Option 2! (again)

12 years 7 weeks ago
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Plenty of truth-telling on this forum, I think.

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12 years 7 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Yes, they know how to tell the truth, but they dont. Just like they probably know how to drive in one lane, but just dont care enough.

I have heard many times from students talking about the differences in northern and souther china. They all said "the south are very clever in business." Despite the fact that they know it means cunning in deception, they still see it from the end result: it worked and they get money. Not what outsiders see: unacceptablly unethical. 

Its just as much about face as being shortsighted. Sure giving/saving face is apart of their culture. But doing everything possible to make an extra buck is also deeply ingrained. And if they could see that honest dealing would bring them more money in the long run, then they might try it. I just dont think they ever will.

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12 years 7 weeks ago
 
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My wife is really sticky on this kinda thing. She absolutely will NOT bend the truth. She's one of these Chinese who hates how Chinese behave and so purposely steers clear of it. I have a couple Chinese friends like that.

Jnusb416:

Yes, most of the people I know are this way too. If they do say a lie, it's usually some little white lie, not any worse than back home.

12 years 7 weeks ago
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