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Q: Does The fast pace of chinese development economy justify the lack of ethics and values?
Sometimes I ask some locals, why are locals so shelfish, they just care about themselves or they think if they have money they can buy everything including their girlfriends or wives. They justify because of the fast pace of chinese economy. I would to know your point of view
The only thing that justifies a lack of ethics is survival.
During the Cultural Revolution, Chinese people were forced to denounce their neighbours (generally resulting in public humiliation, torture and execution for the denounced) to preserve their own lives. Periods of mass-starvation also required Chinese common folk to turn on each other. Self-preservation became deeply rooted in the Chinese psyche, where it has remained.
People from an under-privileged, largely illiterate peasant culture - who two generations ago were witnessing mass-executions and mass-starvation - can now see rampant consumerism and crass displays of wealth all around them. Wealth disparity causes discontentment and opportunistic behaviour in any society, but the utter lack of dignity when it comes to lying, cheating, stealing and extortion is carried over from a darker time.
Apparently during the Industrial Revolution in England (comparable economic development and industrialisation; people moving from rural areas to the city to work in shops and factories), people acted with a similar disregard for their fellow humans. Life was dark and dirty, and people were callous and self-interested. So maybe in a hundred years, Chinese people will be polite, civilised, socially-minded humans. Maybe.
Regarding whether economic development is now a reasonable excuse, I think the central problem is this:
Despite acknowledging the garbage dump of a society they live in, the lack of social cohesion, and the dirty, greedy, inconsiderate behaviour all around them, Chinese people NEVER take responsibility for it, because it is always easier to point to an external factor (scapegoat) that "justifies" this behaviour. The automatic response to any negative social phenomenon is "China is a developing country" or "we have too many people".
Western social analysis is self-critical. We address the behaviour and perceptions (e.g. dishonesty, bigotry, racism, misogyny, violence, homophobia) that cause problems in society, and through self-awareness, we change. We also know that when everyone acts in a considerate and civilised manner, everyone benefits.
Chinese people (instead of developing a sense of responsibility) would rather conclude that "there are too many people" then hold their kid while it does a shit on the floor.
dongbeiren:
Well said on so many levels! The inability to take responsibility is so true. There seems to be a general malaise and resignation to a lot of problems that could be addressed through individuals striving to create a better society. Classic example: people littering left and right. I don't think most Chinese can stop and take the time to think that by changing their individual behavior, they can create a cleaner and more civilized society. They just resigned to the fact that China is filthy. Or when I hear Chinese complaining about pollution, petty office politics, guanxi and other problems with the society they just shrug and say, "This is China". I never hear Chinese talking about how they can reduce their personal energy consumption or conduct themselves in a moral way to create a better society. Such thinking requires a certain independence that is severely lacking in China.
rasklnik:
Actually I find Chinese rarely think about the problems in society. Russians are always saying "Russia is a mess...Russia is terrible...But nobody can fix it so..what to do?"
China seems more like "STOP THINKING! STOP THINKING!"
laowaigentleman:
@samsara
Eothosio pointed this out earlier. Almost every other Asian country has more people per square kilometre than China does, so the too many people excuse doesn't wash.
ScotsAlan:
Excellent post Samsara.
I hear the "too many people" excuse all the time.
But it's BS. Travel from one city to the next and there are vast areas of countryside relatively deserted. There are not too many people. They just all want to be in the same place at the same time.
Just another excuse like "China has too many people" to justify their awful behavior. In terms of density many countries are above China and much more livable.
The only thing that justifies a lack of ethics is survival.
During the Cultural Revolution, Chinese people were forced to denounce their neighbours (generally resulting in public humiliation, torture and execution for the denounced) to preserve their own lives. Periods of mass-starvation also required Chinese common folk to turn on each other. Self-preservation became deeply rooted in the Chinese psyche, where it has remained.
People from an under-privileged, largely illiterate peasant culture - who two generations ago were witnessing mass-executions and mass-starvation - can now see rampant consumerism and crass displays of wealth all around them. Wealth disparity causes discontentment and opportunistic behaviour in any society, but the utter lack of dignity when it comes to lying, cheating, stealing and extortion is carried over from a darker time.
Apparently during the Industrial Revolution in England (comparable economic development and industrialisation; people moving from rural areas to the city to work in shops and factories), people acted with a similar disregard for their fellow humans. Life was dark and dirty, and people were callous and self-interested. So maybe in a hundred years, Chinese people will be polite, civilised, socially-minded humans. Maybe.
Regarding whether economic development is now a reasonable excuse, I think the central problem is this:
Despite acknowledging the garbage dump of a society they live in, the lack of social cohesion, and the dirty, greedy, inconsiderate behaviour all around them, Chinese people NEVER take responsibility for it, because it is always easier to point to an external factor (scapegoat) that "justifies" this behaviour. The automatic response to any negative social phenomenon is "China is a developing country" or "we have too many people".
Western social analysis is self-critical. We address the behaviour and perceptions (e.g. dishonesty, bigotry, racism, misogyny, violence, homophobia) that cause problems in society, and through self-awareness, we change. We also know that when everyone acts in a considerate and civilised manner, everyone benefits.
Chinese people (instead of developing a sense of responsibility) would rather conclude that "there are too many people" then hold their kid while it does a shit on the floor.
dongbeiren:
Well said on so many levels! The inability to take responsibility is so true. There seems to be a general malaise and resignation to a lot of problems that could be addressed through individuals striving to create a better society. Classic example: people littering left and right. I don't think most Chinese can stop and take the time to think that by changing their individual behavior, they can create a cleaner and more civilized society. They just resigned to the fact that China is filthy. Or when I hear Chinese complaining about pollution, petty office politics, guanxi and other problems with the society they just shrug and say, "This is China". I never hear Chinese talking about how they can reduce their personal energy consumption or conduct themselves in a moral way to create a better society. Such thinking requires a certain independence that is severely lacking in China.
rasklnik:
Actually I find Chinese rarely think about the problems in society. Russians are always saying "Russia is a mess...Russia is terrible...But nobody can fix it so..what to do?"
China seems more like "STOP THINKING! STOP THINKING!"
laowaigentleman:
@samsara
Eothosio pointed this out earlier. Almost every other Asian country has more people per square kilometre than China does, so the too many people excuse doesn't wash.
ScotsAlan:
Excellent post Samsara.
I hear the "too many people" excuse all the time.
But it's BS. Travel from one city to the next and there are vast areas of countryside relatively deserted. There are not too many people. They just all want to be in the same place at the same time.
i believe every person has a certain amount of emotional and material (a bit of both) needs that must be met first and foremost. the amount of needs is determined by people's expectations, so if expensive foreign merchandise is a frequent topic of discussion, these people will only be satisfied with said item. they will pursue this gratification into adulthood if necessary. morals, manners and other values come after all this, but most chinese adults are not there yet. most were imprisoned in ineffective schools during their actual childhood, so they're not done playing.
One lobster was eating an ice cream and his lobster friend stole the ice cream and ate it.
You stole my ice cream!
Your so Shellfish!
It will take time.
I think this is why there is the highly public "flies and tigers" campaign at the moment. Because how can people have faith and trust in each other if they don't trust their Government?
The propaganda has a subliminal effect. I can feel a difference since the current leadership came to power. Maybe not out in the sticks, but there is a subtle change in the cities.
RiriRiri:
Yeah, corrupted offs are taken to dinner/KTV a little further away from the city. Fuck feasts are happening in private houses, not in hotels anymore.
Subtle change, sure.
Actually not exactly the answer but just an idea if you di not mind ("answers" you already received plenty ...).
I always cannot stop wondering how people, usually coming from relatively rich countries with relatively good welfare system (this all, usually, thanks to a century of plundering Asian, African and South American countries) are so clear in their judgement of other cultures. May be a bit more of humility and.modesty would help to majority of people who already "replied" your question to the best of their abilities ...
ScotsAlan:
As a Brit, I can assure you I am fully aware of where the wealth of my country come from. It came from Empire and slavery.
I am deeply ashamed of it.
Read this wiki article about a WW2 leader.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Harris,_1st_Baronet
coineineagh:
not to dissuade you from your eloquent version of "blame the west", but a great deal of countries in the world bore the brunt of colonialism far more than china, and still managed to develop politeness, strong & virtuous culture, civil & political society, trust and other social capital. what's happening in china is not the result of opium, or being cheated out of historical market profits by hong kong. china formed its own oppressive government, and the people need not look outward to other countries in search for the cause of their bad behaviour & misery.
Samsara:
Well, allow me to retort:
The reason for Australia’s prosperity (and my comparatively privileged upbringing) is not Australia’s history of plundering China, Africa and South America.
The reasons are, in fact: Australia’s democratically elected government; public spending on education, healthcare and welfare; constitutional law (notably legal equality, transparency of official departments, and freedom of speech, information and press); and Australian people’s strong sense of decency (we all rather like each other, except for bogans).
Regarding our “relatively good welfare system”: While that is an understatement, our relative advantage is that the majority of Australia’s tax money is spent on public services, while less than 5% is spent on paying government members’ salaries and expense accounts.
Conversely, less than 8% of China’s wealth is spent on public services, while more than 50% is spent on government officials’ salary and expenses. That should give you some inkling as to why you have enjoyed fewer privileges than I did. But I suppose you could just say “there are too many people”.
China is a mess because of horrible mismanagement, legal inequality, opacity of official departments (therefore corruption), lack of public spending, patriotic education (the suffocation of free thought), a series of historical catastrophes caused by Communism, the complete indifference of Chinese people to each other’s well-being, and a culture of dishonesty, apathy, ignorance and scapegoat-finding.
TLDR: Blame the West.
gouxiong:
Well thank you all for the flame :). Firstly I do not blame anyone posting here from "plundering"...All of us are apparently too young to be present/in some way participating in that. I just wanted to cite one of the current Western countries source of their wealth.The topic is about judging the peoples behaviour (and I keep aside a bit ridiculous and sweeping statement that China is a mess - firstly it's not and secondly China is doing more then well on its way "up"). The point is about peoples motivation. It's realtively cheap to "condemn" a lot of people behavior even from the position of relatively "poor" English teacher who is anyway earning several times average salary of more or less any China city for fraction of real hours average Chinese work. I do not want to say that these money are not (in many but of course not all cases) deserved. I just want to say that this (together with alternative solution to leave the country which majority of Chinese does not have) can quite noticeably effect the perspective... lf the person really cares about the environment he/she lives in so may be spending a bit of effort to try to understand the peoples aims, motivation and their real situation could certanly be of big help in the process. After all many such people would realize that even though China (actually as any other country) is far away from perfect but doing quite well ... At the end of the day majority of people around the globe has the same aim - to live happy and fruitful life ...
Samsara:
My pleasure!
China's elite government members and businesspeople are doing quite well (most of them move to other countries if they get the chance), and Chinese people are told they are doing quite well (while meanwhile China's wealth disparity surpasses Africa's). I guess for the Chinese public a patriotic story is just as good as actual progress though.
Communism in China has been a political, social, educational, cultural and environmental catastrophe. It is the reason that mainland Chinese people do not have the same prosperity, privileges, standard of education, social consciousness or awareness of their own situation that Taiwanese and Hong Kong people do.
North and South Korea provide a clear demonstration of how political ideology affects prosperity. After the Korean War, North Korea and South Korea were equal in size, population and resources. North Korea inherited Communism from China. South Korea (after a series of bloody military coups) inherited democracy from America. Observe the difference now.
North Korean people are still told that they live in a glorious nation, and that all their problems are caused by the evil West (sounds familiar). They are required to be patriotic instead of raising reasonable questions about their own situation (sounds familiar). Meanwhile they are not given access to independent news or historical records, because the government's account is sufficient (sounds familiar).
Chinese people could be living in a developed society with public services, high standards of education, legal equality, and much better wealth distribution. But they are not.
I understand why ultra-materialism and opportunism exist (I would be the same if I grew up in these circumstances). To a lesser extent I understand the loud, rude and inconsiderate behaviour. I don't really understand the dirtiness (littering, spitting and public defecation) at all. But none of these things will ever change until people start valuing each other and rewarding human decency.
And that won't happen until people stop being complicit in a system that promotes crass displays of wealth over personality, and gives useless rich people a sense of entitlement.
And that won't happen until Chinese people are allowed to start honestly assessing their own situation.
And that won't happen until America stops restricting Chinese people's education, and their access to information, ideas, opinions and free press.
And by America I mean the Communist Party.
laowaigentleman:
@samsara
Please, please please keep saying those things. I actually need to hear them when I'm caught in the maelstrom of absurdity that is China today. It's like a moral anchor for me.
The rich here are so vulgar. You probably are very familiar with Jung Chang's book on Mao. In many of my posts I assume a haughty manner and I've been criticised for this. Many readers criticised Chang's book for the level of condescension in her style. Having lived and taught here for nearly three years now, I fully understand why she wrote it like that. She didn't want you or me to read that book, she wanted Mainland Chinese to read it.
When I ridicule the wealthy I actually do go completely overboard but this is the style of writing that mainland Chinese are used to. Many western people see this and think that I'm looking down on people from a high horse. The worst thing about this is it's people whose opinions are worth listening to who seem to take the most offense at it. It's not hard to adopt mix George Carlin's comments on business with Mao's stridency. Piss easy. Put it this way, I'm sure as hell not as good at articulating a point as you are.
Keep up your good work. It's a shame you can't be paid for your posts.
Samsara:
Thanks, Laowai!
I agree about Jung Chang. Her impassioned criticism is offputting for Western readers, who expect objectivity and emotional detachment when reading about history. But just as you said - Chinese readers expect stories about historical figures to be prescriptive and moralistic.
I responded to a Jung Chang question about a year ago, here:
This is part of the official brainwashing program. Like said above, "too many people excuse" is also used for lack of morals, e.g. no one cries about the death of a construction worker, no point in improving worker safety as there are so many people... but slap me sideways and call my Sally if this isn't part of a tactic to avoid workers unionizing, for the better of those at the top. If people at the bottom are so busy not caring about each other, then they probably don't mind the top being corrupt, selfish and doing things to only benefit the few.
laowaigentleman:
I've frequently heard the justification - "well at least he's looking after his family". Now this is a hardcore slave morality if ever there was one.
