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Q: Education.... who, what, where

Another political question, and since it's been brought up by someone in the healthcare thread...

 

I personally think the government has yet another responsibility (apparently because I'm naive about the Australian government, because I'm not a paranoid American) to provide access to basic levels of education for all citizens, as this promotes the well-being (and, eventually, the economy) of the country.

 

In Australia, we have this to grade 10, and even grade 12. From Grade 10 in most states, students have the option of starting to learn a trade, or they can even leave school entirely to start a trade (plumbing, electrician, carpentry, etc), Or, they can go on with their education in order to enter university. It is possible to drop out of school, but before 16 years old, you need to have a job or other such similar to go to. It's also possible, for some students in really bad situations, to continue schooling through alternative methods (eg, night school, distance education).

 

Schooling to year 12 is paid for by the government (for the most part) in public schools but there are private schools available (for a much higher fee). The government subsidises the private schools as well as the public (and, some private schools get more than public - which I think is ridiculous!!!)

 

 

Learning a trade is also subsidised (as having a qualified tradie helps increase the economy... jobs, taxes, etc etc). Qualified (and ambitious) tradies can make a good deal of money.

 

Universities are partly subsidised by the government, and students can choose to either to pay their fees up front (and enjoy about a 10% discount) for the semester, or they can defer payments (to most courses) through the tax system, so that once they have completed university, they end up with a debt to the government, which is paid through the tax system, once the student has attained a certain income threshhold (ie, once they reach a certain annual income, an extra amount is taken through the tax department,,, from 1-5% more).

 

While not perfect, it does allow people from lower income households to access education, without imposing the huge financial burdens seen in other countries. And, therefore, students with the ability don't have to worry about affording their degree at a time in their life when they don't have that sort of money, but should be able to earn it once they've completed their degree.

 

(FTR - for some post-graduate courses, all tuition fees are exempt as well!)

 

Additionally, students aren't left with a HUGE debt hanging over their heads which keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and negatively affects their chances of acquiring other loans, etc.

 

Again, this system means more educated people in society, which has flow-on effects.

 

The problem with a fully socialised education system is the quality of education... just look at China! I'm sure there are other issues as well, but they pale in comparison with a fully privatised system where parents have to save for decades just so their child won't get left behind (or threatening letters every week from debt collectors!)

7 years 19 weeks ago in  Teaching & Learning - China

 
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Is there a point you are trying to make? What is your question?

ironman510:

iWolf, long time to see.  Whats up?

7 years 18 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

The question is "do you agree with me and my cherrypicked examples or are you a paranoid American".

7 years 18 weeks ago
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iWolf:

Greetings Mr Ironman, I've been busy having a life recently. I trust all its well.wink

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

I have an idea on why these questions are being asked.

 

In the last 6(?) months a lot of the questions and posters on here have shown themselves to be right-wing free-market republicans.

 

You know the type, small government, very low taxes but then have to pay for everything yourself and if you can't afford good healthcare or good schooling then you only have yourself to blame. (I know I'm over simplifying here)

 

So these recent questions from Shining, in my view, have been to get some debate going where us libturds can put our commie socialist viewpoints forward.

7 years 18 weeks ago
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philbravery:

I Thought he had been putting mushrooms in his coffee again indecision

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Riri... "The question is "do you agree with me and my cherrypicked examples or are you a paranoid American"."

 

By 'cherrypicked', you mean how the system works in Australia?? Sorry if I haven't outlined education systems throughout the rest of the world for you, and only focused on the one country I've personally experienced... And, yes, comparatively, I easily say that the AU system is head and shoulders better than the US system - certainly as far as tertiary education is concerned.

 

Speaking of countries I've personally experienced, I know I'm not the only one on this thread who also went through the same system....

 

And why the thread? Because of something Ambivalentmace wrote.... apparently, anything relating to socialism, or administered by the government, are inherently bad - or at the very least - flawed, and the ONLY solution is to privatise... everything!!!!

7 years 18 weeks ago
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7 years 19 weeks ago
 
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Posts: 2774

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Is there a point you are trying to make? What is your question?

ironman510:

iWolf, long time to see.  Whats up?

7 years 18 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

The question is "do you agree with me and my cherrypicked examples or are you a paranoid American".

7 years 18 weeks ago
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iWolf:

Greetings Mr Ironman, I've been busy having a life recently. I trust all its well.wink

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

I have an idea on why these questions are being asked.

 

In the last 6(?) months a lot of the questions and posters on here have shown themselves to be right-wing free-market republicans.

 

You know the type, small government, very low taxes but then have to pay for everything yourself and if you can't afford good healthcare or good schooling then you only have yourself to blame. (I know I'm over simplifying here)

 

So these recent questions from Shining, in my view, have been to get some debate going where us libturds can put our commie socialist viewpoints forward.

7 years 18 weeks ago
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philbravery:

I Thought he had been putting mushrooms in his coffee again indecision

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Riri... "The question is "do you agree with me and my cherrypicked examples or are you a paranoid American"."

 

By 'cherrypicked', you mean how the system works in Australia?? Sorry if I haven't outlined education systems throughout the rest of the world for you, and only focused on the one country I've personally experienced... And, yes, comparatively, I easily say that the AU system is head and shoulders better than the US system - certainly as far as tertiary education is concerned.

 

Speaking of countries I've personally experienced, I know I'm not the only one on this thread who also went through the same system....

 

And why the thread? Because of something Ambivalentmace wrote.... apparently, anything relating to socialism, or administered by the government, are inherently bad - or at the very least - flawed, and the ONLY solution is to privatise... everything!!!!

7 years 18 weeks ago
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7 years 19 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Or you could let people choose what they want to learn and what cost is right, so no one would have to pay through yet another bloated overpriced system that is only "free" (= paid for by someone else) up to the time the government deems its propaganda has been effective enough.

Oh but I guess parents aren't responsible enough to know what they want for their children.

 

Sorry, I'd develop more but since I know you're going to bail halfway, why bother.

Hotwater:

To take your comment to the very basics, what your saying is "if you have money you've got choice, if you're poor we'll tough shit"!

 

You've obviously not fully read the OP post or willfully misinterpreted it. 

 

People who have enough money can choose to send their kids to better/private schools. 

 

The whole point of having a free education system (paid out of taxes) is that the children of poorer people can get a decent education so they can aim to improve their position in life. How else do you think anyone can become upwardly mobile without a decent education behind them?

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I'm fairly certain that my 6000+ post count should be seen as a good indicator that I don't avoid good intelligent arguments... and I've even got a reputation for being argumentative!

 

Of course, when people start to  write crap, don't back up their assertions, and ignore basic facts constantly, then yeah.. I'm going to stop arguing (and, don't forget, ECC doesn't have a system to keep following comments unless they're under your own post!)

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

"Oh but I guess parents aren't responsible enough to know what they want for their children"

 

Personally, no - they're not!I think just looking around the world today shows that's true! The violence, the (usually willful) ignorance. Also, the majority of parents wouldn't know what actually needs to be taught - except for their own specialisation in life/career. However, that doesn't help children learn what may be important to them for their future career!

 

As for the 'propaganda'.... somewhat ironic that you should accuse me of 'cherrypicking' above, and then make this comment here...!!! It sort of shows the paranoia you talk about above.

 

I have said before that I think having children should be an (earned) privilege given to those only shown to be capable of teaching a human being how they should behave and act as an adult... but that's not really what this discussion is about.

7 years 18 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

"Oh but I guess parents aren't responsible enough to know what they want for their children"

Personally, no - they're not!I think just looking around the world today shows that's true! The violence, the (usually willful) ignorance.

 

Hey but wait a second, hasn't the public school system been around long enough so people should be enlightened enough by now?

What's gone wrong?

 

Oh wait yeah, it's probably not free enough, not subsidized enough or just not overwhelming enough just yet.

Just like the good old soviet union, comrade. Communism isn't working? It's because NOT ENOUGH COMMUNISM YET! Comrade Brezhnev said it.

 

Oh and the sad side note: why am I the one called a paranoid when I'm just trusting people enough to believe they could set up their own thing without technocrats?

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

"hasn't the public school system been around long enough so people should be enlightened enough by now?"

 

Sort of good point... unfortunately, the current school system doesn't 'enlighten' people, it only teaches them certain skills (and occasionally some level of 'morals').

 

While I think education at the primary and secondary level should be fully government subsidised, I also think that changes need to be made... changes which most would not want to see. Eg, meditation needs to be introduced into the curriculum (no, not 'religious' meditation - but the lowering of the brain waves to the Alpha level, which helps with memory and access, as well as the other cognitive and emotional benefits which it gives). Also, philosophy to teach kids to actually THINK! (and, to not think that they're way is always the right way...)

 

If private schools did this - then great! BUT.... it shouldn't be a privilege... it should be a basic right!

 

And, the 'paranoia' bit comes from the attitude you have towards government... especially when government is controlled by corporation dictates... which can just as easily control schools and education.

 

There ARE private schools out there, but they all have an agenda. This agenda may not be all that bad... but it does raise questions about what should or should not be allowed (one simple example - evolution or creationism???)

7 years 18 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

I'm happy because I think you are starting to see the problem.

 

The school system doesn't enlighten people because it doesn't want/need to. Governments only invest for what's in their own interest, and their own interest isn't having enlightened citizens, but skilled specialists with "some level of duly authorized moral".

Yes, yes, yes, yes! You want some changes to be enacted, and the sole and only way you will ever see these changes come true is when you will pay for the education you want because it is the only way you can act for your own interest. Where does this not make enough sense that you still believe education should be subsidized? When do you think anyone will ever listen to you if you are not the direct sponsor of your own choices? Yeah, just like the perfect socialist dream: between never and eternity.

I'm not even trying to be ironic, I'm just feeling like I'm adding 2 and 2 and somehow it still makes 5 in your head but I can't get why.

 

About school teachings, look, if schools want to teach creationism or any idiot thing parents wish to sponsor, why not let them have it? Ultimately it's them who have to pay for it in terms of what intellectual luggage their children get out of it and that they are worth in the real world. To me creationism is stupid, but really no worse than PC gender theories.

 

Lastly about corporations dictating governments what to do. Remember, every entity acts in its own interest. And the best interest for a monopoly or a huge corporation is to invest in government to protect its interests. Even better than R&D regarding cost to benefit. Monopolies wouldn't exist without governments simply because with a properly educated population, money would stop going the way of a certain company as soon as they become the lesser product whereas nowadays they just need to find the right lobbyist to write their own standard into law.

Yeah yeah yeah we can talk about railways and energy and defense, sure, but first just have a good good look at education and every other sector where easy cuts can be made.

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I think we're looking at the argument from two different directions.

 

I'm looking at it from the perspective of - if people don't have the money to afford private education (and health, and insurance, etc etc), then I think the government should make options available so that everyone has at least basic levels of education (and, given I think Aus's tertiary education system is close to the best in the world, accessible undergraduate programs).

 

There are obviously issues with this - such as exactly what gets taught... but the basics such as language and sciences aren't overly politically agenda'ed. (although, history is... and, I suppose, science in some ways).

 

 

You seem to be coming from the angle of - It's everyone's own personal responsibility to get educated (themselves or their families), and thus it should be completely privatised... that, AND that the only reason they can't afford to get that education is because they're too lazy. (no, you haven't said that, but I'm looking for what you might say when I say "but what about the people who can't afford it???"). Do you actually have a solution for those in society who can't afford private education? Or do you presume that the costs will come down due to competition, and that there will never be any form of elitism that will maintain or enforce classist systems?

7 years 18 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

It's hardly deniable the costs of education would go down without a government confiscating it. Or at least the value for money, even though it's hard to quantify what value is actually taken away by indoctrination.

 

I agree with you that access to education is a basic right that every child should have access to, but so are many other things such as toys, food, diapers, caring parents and so on and so forth. Why has no government ever collectivized any of that then? Because there's no indoctrination value in diapers I guess.

 

See, that's how we differ, the question you ask is "how do you get access to education (but somehow not diapers, toys, etc) to poor people?" when the question I ask is "how to get people to first gather enough resources and maturity then consider having children?" which is how any sane society pursuing improvement should work, whereas insane societies just try to cater to everyone's obsession in the here and now, on the pennies of sane individuals.

And do not think for a second that it is easy to actually see things that way and that it would be easy for anyone trying to implement this to be made look like a complete asshole to the eyes of virtue signaling SJWs.

 

Not about the best system in the world, I have no knowledge about the Australian system, but let me warn you that whereas I assumed that my socialized system was fine too at least for what I could get out of it when I was in school, you might want to have a look at what it's become: it may have changed without you noticing.

I had a look at some recent official books promoted by the ministry of education and the contents were truly horrifying, and yes, even sciences especially regarding "gender".

 

Lastly, I fully, entirely understand that sometimes life strikes and that shit can happen to anyone, letting people with children without resources while it was entirely not their doing or responsibility. Charity exists, it's a wonderful thing, and my experience is free people in free societies actually rely on each other, have empathy and will not let each other down especially when there is no collectivized confiscation state going on entitling people to be irresponsible.

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

"It's hardly deniable the costs of education would go down without a government confiscating it. Or at least the value for money, even though it's hard to quantify what value is actually taken away by indoctrination."

 

Actually, it's very easy to deny this! I look at the various countries around the world, and take a look at the numbers - and the quality of graduates (primary, secondary and tertiary).

 

"I agree with you that access to education is a basic right that every child should have access to, but so are many other things such as toys, food, diapers, caring parents and so on and so forth"

 

Hmmm...... I'd agree with food, and the parents (but that's an argument in itself!). Toys? No. Diapers?

 

As for the 'indoctrination' element (which I didn't C&P) - if you're paranoid... I see it as value for money - education has a FAR greater (long term) value than diapers & toys. Food already can be cheap (sometimes free for the desperate), but the costs would be HUGE if a government did that!!! Besides which, there is welfare, which is where the government gives money to allow people to buy the goods they feel are necessary (and electricy, etc).

 

"when the question I ask is "how to get people to first gather enough resources and maturity then consider having children?" which is how any sane society pursuing improvement should work,"

 

Not exactly... being closer to my true ideas, my question almost doesn't even come up, as being a parent shouldn't be seen as a right, but a privilege which very few would achieve! ie - it isn't JUST about having money! THAT would be a sane society!

 

Also, your question still presumes the individual is completely responsibility for their children's education, and that the government has no responsibility at all.... you're saying that the system that those in the world who have access to free education are acting irresponsibly if they know that, and work within that system! I think that's foolish... This system is MUCH better than parents who know that they'll have to pay for each and every dime - and start out ok, but may very well lose it all.

 

 

"my experience is free people in free societies actually rely on each other, have empathy and will not let each other down especially when there is no collectivized confiscation state going on entitling people to be irresponsible."

 

Ummm - history says otherwise. So, for that matter, does contemporary society! Lots of people in your own country would so disagree with your statement!!!!

7 years 18 weeks ago
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7 years 18 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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I got your point. I am myself quite socialistically minded (not to mistake with system called socialism in China or former USSR), but there is a bunch of problems associated with state funded education.

 

Although the US educational system is quite elitist and often denies chances to poor people it is often difficult for universities from foreign countries to compete with their US counterparts as some of them have amassed unbelievable wealth over the years and nowadays education is just treated as yet  another "service/product" to sell-and as long as there are people willing to pay, nobody will stop universities from increasing their fees. So the problem is to provide funding to education in a way that will both create chances for people and provide universities with necessary funding, but it's not really easy to do.

 

Of course there is a number of countries like Finland, Germany and France where education is mostly funded by the state, but if to believe some international rankings of universities the US and UK have totally dominated them. And of course on the other spectrum there are also countries (not to be said aloud) where even high-school education is deemed too high for general populace to be offered for free...

 

So, as much as I don't want universities to function like any other companies and be only concerned with their profits somehow I feel that it's very difficult to escape or find some feasible way of doing that. 

Shining_brow:

I'm glad someone brought up those international rankings.

 

They're flawed!

 

And, even the ranking sites (the reputable ones, at any rate) acknowledge that they're flawed, and in one very significant way. They base a good 30% of weighting upon publications by each university's academic staff, and references to those publications.

 

So, you take a country like America, where lecturers, professors etc are employed, and they're mostly employed to write and publish - not to teach (which is seen as an adjunct to the main job). Therefore, they're spewing out publications constantly, which are being referenced to constantly (by other lecturers in the exact same position - needing to publish to keep their job). So, getting published heavily affects the rankings, rather than quality (of research, of teaching, of students, of everything else....).

 

In addition to this, it gives a HUGELY unfair advantage to those in English-speaking countries. Since a major part of rankings is about publications and references, and most journals & publications are in English, then English speaking universities have a MUCH higher chance of getting higher rankings... and, thus, German, French, Singaporean, Taiwanese, Italian, etc etc etc language universities score less well than English, American, Canadian, etc (in general... obviously, many universities from those countries do rank well! NUS, Taiwan National Uni, etc). But, many of the higher ranking universities are probably crap in comparison to a lot of the German, French, Swedish, Finnish universities as far as what actually counts!

7 years 18 weeks ago
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TheMud-picker:

Good point.

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

"Although the US educational system is quite elitist and often denies chances to poor people "

 

You seem to know absolute zero about America. I grew up poor and worked my way into the middleclass because of the opportunity provided by free education. That opportunity is there for everyone but Americans aren't taking advantage of it. Immigrants come in and do. I taught in poor school systems, their parents don't push their kids to learn. 

If you a poor, you can go to university for free, how is that denying poor people?

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Jackofalltrade:

You must be joking.Compare https://www.gse.harvard.edu/financialaid/tuition  and http://www.fu-berlin.de/en/studium/international/studium_fu/studienfinanzierung/ apparently Germany is a way better to do a country than the US as the best uni in Germany doesn't charge students any fees and 45 th grand a year at Harvard is a pure example of equal chances and social inclusiveness. I have no preconceived ideas in my mind, let the numbers speak for themselves. Millions of American uni graduates working their asses off in China in order to pay off their college loans is also a classic example of free education. 

7 years 18 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Engles..

"Although the US educational system is quite elitist and often denies chances to poor people "

 

"If you a poor, you can go to university for free, how is that denying poor people?"

 

Firstly, did you miss the word 'often' in that quote of mine?

 

Secondly, there are programs in place to help some people from poor families to get into university - and relatively rarely* for 'free' (scholarships). And, in the vast majority of cases, those scholarships are only for those who have excelled in a particular area.

 

There are certainly exceptions - various universities around that strongly encourage students from lower-income families... but the US has over 4000 universities and colleges....  (for over 300 million people). The vast majority of those students (who either graduate or drop-out) have a huge debt over their heads... whereas in other countries, they don't (or, in the case of Aus, not one they have to worry about).

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2012/05/02/poor-students-are-the-real-victims-of-college-discrimination/#4619778e2007

 

(* very rarely compared to other countries where education is either entirely free, or heavily subsidised)

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