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Posts: 7715

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Q: Is ESL so low, that people don't consider it a real job?

I'm sure the answer is obvious to many, however...

 

I've been advertising for Full-time and Part-time positions, 'teaching' kids.

 

The school is headed by an American, an experienced and fairly intelligent Chinese... and myself sort of helping with the kids side of thing (I focus on the IELTS side).

 

So, I was asked to try to get teachers.

 

So far, 5 responses...

 

And only ONE I'd ever bother really considering!!!

 

ONLY one has bothered to treat this as an actual job that is worth trying for... he put in effort to give a well constructed expression of interest email, and took the time to send an intelligent audio file (I focus on pronunciation features, as well as grammar).

 

The rest... OMFG... do they even give a shit???

 

From the "I'm interested in this job" - implying that *I* should go out of my way to do all the hard work to get them, because they are SO awesome... to the audio file of someone who sounded like he's still high (or drunk) on something...

 

Is it the industry? Is is just the mindset of the younger generation these days??

 

(I ask the latter, because I recall going for my last job interview in Australia, and a LOT of the candidates in the room were uni students (times were fairly flexible)... and some turned up in crap t-shirts, shorts and thongs (the footwear, not the underwear!)

6 years 51 weeks ago in  Business & Jobs - China

 
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Shifu

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interestingly i know many FT's who approach the whole area professionally, prepare for classes, research and actually give a flying unicorn to do a good job.

But the treatment by the schools, both public and private training centres, is abysmal, and sucks the life out of them, not to mention the dreadful pay.

 

most schools look for the cheap option and are not willing to pay for a professional approach, especially when a professional approach wlll show them up for what they are - exam mills, not educators.

 

by and large, schools (and parents) don;t want professional teachers who will challenge their 19th century mindset and education system.

RobRocks:

I prepare for classes and I also prepare for demo classes if I were to get  a new job,

 

you cant go into class with  nothing,you need plenty of back up if something does not work.

6 years 51 weeks ago
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Posts: 7204

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It's a Job?....
Seriously though if you could see some of the Mung beans that turn up for interviews at my workplace you at least have candidates that can walk and chew gum at the same time.
It seems like everyone is under the impression that they can have a luxuries lifestyle without any effort.
Or that the world owes them a living.
And I'm guessing that being in China they want white Native English Speakers and not the well spoken Nigerian Gentleman.

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6 years 51 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Yes, no, maybe... it depends on what you are offering, the location of your school and its credibility.

 

I get tons of applications from people who think of English teaching as a summer gig in the likes of camp monitor or crops picking, to those I don't even reply.

 

But I can also tell you that the best candidates go to the most serious schools/centers, the ones that offer a fairly high compensation for the job. I have tons of CVs from legit and motivated teachers but they are picky and won't work for the low-end ESL salaries that are typically offered in China.

 

Not talking about you but I always want to laugh (not in front of my customers of course) when a school is asking me to find them a certified teacher with 5+ years of experience while offering something like 9k or 12k without free flat.

 

Considering the demand and supply, most legitimate certified and experienced teachers in China shouldn't accept anything less than 25k a month with free apartment (30k without it), and the supply is thinning by the day.

 

The backpacker-teacher types are fewer than before, it's true, but the people who now come to teach in China are way more picky about where and for how much they will work, and rightfully so.

 

The sad part is schools are also becoming pickier but most won't offer a fair compensation to the right candidates, so they get what's left of the backpackers instead, while legit teachers go to higher paying schools or to the neighboring countries or start their own school/center instead.

Shining_brow:

I certainly agree with what you've said, but sort of misses my point.

 

I've put up a job ad, looking for teachers (kids, so not overly fussed on qualifications just yet), but the responses I've gotten are - for the most part - crap!

 

Now, I don't have a great problem with the backpacker type - IF they can do the job. But, they can at least TRY to make me think I should even consider them!

 

I definitely think it might be a privileged attitude thing! Although, I know for sure that a couple of the applicants are NOT white, nor native speakers! (neither of which I give a damn about....), so that does make it more .. weird! Like they want to confirm the stereotype.

 

(note - the ONE and only applicant I've bothered to forward - in seriousness - is not white, and I'm not sure if his L1 is English....)

 

Certainly agree with you about the schools wanting WAYYYY above their offer! And, yes, it would be nice if 25K became the standard in this country!!!

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Governor

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Teaching ESL in china is like a vacation if you have ever had a 40 hour a week laborer job. After working in my own country for a year I go to china to teach for vacation....I just do it to keep myself busy and pay for trips....that's it. And the only reason I get people asking me to work is because im a white Canadian...only reason. Any "job" where that is the main selling point...is not a real job....its a job...but not one to brag about. My degree is irrelevant in china.Its only used for the visa not to assess your English skill. Literally any white monkey can do..,,,hell you don't even have to speak English well.

Shining_brow:

But, if you were to apply for a job, would you at least make an effort?

6 years 51 weeks ago
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biggj123:

Well with a little common sense and work ethic and just a mild "give a fuck" attitude anyone can be a good teacher. I hate being under or not prepared so teaching came easy since I don't like to look like a fool in front of people.

 

i know what you mean in your post though.... most of the teacher I met I would not even let them walk my dog and yet a handful are some of the best people you could ever meet in terms of teaching. The lack of esl regulations brings out the nutters western countries...gives ESL china a bad name. This problem seems far less of a problem in Japan and Korea.

 

And then again if it was not for my wife and kid I would not seek to go to china. There are other places that I would have ended up going to every year.

6 years 51 weeks ago
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biggj123:

And are you talking about just getting CV emails or doing like face to face interview?I had to help find a teacher another school and yeah you would get 50 emails and maybe 1 or 2 were decent. And one guys CV seemed OK and when he came in for the interveiw he had black nail polish on and these fucking goth chains and shit....just a fucking skid. They ended up getting this pothead hippy chick with dreadlocks to teach...she was hot though...don't know how well she could teach or even how much English she knew. Her personality was cool and laid back so she got hired...it was either that or a colored person and the school was not having that lol.

6 years 51 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Well, I've experienced stuff from the initial email/private message right up to interview level. (although, at the interview, I was going for the job as well.

 

For my attempts to hire, I've had a couple that just send a 'I'm interested, so send me stuff"... which get instantly ignored!

 

I did get an audio, as I wrote above, that no-one would hire in a nightmare!

 

So, even before getting to the interview stage. I'm reminded of Harold and Kumar, where Kumar doesn't want to become a doctor, so does what he can to sabotage the interviews he goes to (just to satisfy his father).

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Posts: 1198

Shifu

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why do you think you should have better applicants than anyone else?

It is not an ESL thing, but you might think those foreigners should be better.

 

Seriously i had chinese apply for higher jobs with a phd who couldnt even write a resume where the font is looking somewhat professional.

 

in all the probably 1000 interviews in china I didn't even have a single one that met my requirements that I put up on the job website. But their salary expectation were hillarious

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shining, I think this is a global thing, I used to be the young guy calling some one an old fogey, but now I am the old fogey.

 

I had a company in America that I sold and retired and I started noticing young people with an attitude that I'm here, give me the job.

 

In California, half the applicants that would apply could not pass the drug test. why show up for a drug test and fail and waste half a day for a job you will not get, dont know, maybe better than playing a computer game in mom's basement.

 

Jobs that require meeting the public and people show up with tatoos and piercings on the neck and face. I have walked out of restaurants when servers look like this and spend my money somewhere else. why do you think people want to look at your artwork in a restaurant, don't know, the new age of tolerance,wtf,

 

if you ask any question about future plans, they get offensive like your invading their privacy, screw them, i will buy the robots.

 

I really think supply and demand economics should be taught in high school, I always hired the assholes, the workaholics with a bad attitude that nobody wanted and fired all the ass kissers.

 

I once ran an accounting department for HP with 26 deplorables that did the work of 126 ass kissers did the year before and beat all their deadlines, after that, I gave up on corporations and started my own.

 

ambivalentmace:

there is always a workaholic jerk at every company or school that nobody likes and not appreciated, I find them and steal them away to work for me, if people are jealous of a teacher, i want that teacher.

 

As i tell my coworkers, respect and do your job, i really dont give a damn if you like me, I have 5 liberal young teachers (progressive leftist liberals) that probably hate my guts that work with me, but when they need something from me, they get what they need, and they get my full support as long as they do their job, otherwise don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. This attitude of entitlement will only get worse with robots and universal income, I frankly wonder how anything will get done at all, perhaps Elon Musk is right and humans will be taken over by AI machines. We may actually deserve it if the work ethic does not exist anymore. It's embarrassing to interview some people who show up with stripe tie on a stripe shirt, a lady with a nice dress but I can see the color of her bra through her thin dress, Tolerance may get to the point that first impressions don't apply anymore, but I'm not sure how you retrain me or anybody else to think this way.

6 years 51 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I don't think the tattoos are an issue - unless they're crap (black and white words with little  meaning) - even in the public eye. I recall a waitress with awesome tats - fantastic artwork  across her neck and arms (and, obviously elsewhere). It shows some type of personality.

 

Marx suggested that if people were well recognised for their input, then work ethic would be high...

6 years 51 weeks ago
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Shifu

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In all my time of having a job I have never been late to work,I have tattoos but the kids know  me very well and the parents know  who Iam,

I take my job very serious but not really in a suit and tie type thing

 

I wear shorts chuck taylor converse shoes and rock music t.shirts and thats what every one has seen me in right from day one,I dont try to be someone Iam not

 

I care about the kindergarten children I teach,I do entertain the children as well.

 

when you teach kindergarten you have to be a teacher, father,mother,sister,brother,care giver all rolled into one.

 

I have worked in other jobs as well such as the Warehouse and Hoyts Cinema and Childcare centres and like I said I have always turned up to work on time or well before.

 

when i teach my classes I always put in the effort and try and do a good job.

dom87:

no one asks you to change in an interview, but it is common courtesy to come to an interview well dressed.

If someone cannot even do that, I doubt he work courtesy too.

You can stay who you are, but obviously do not expect an employer who don't know you to employ you while you dress like a 16 year old for a job that actually teach kids.

 

no offense.

No one can see at first sight if you are a great teacher or a complete idiot. Clothes makes people, at least we have that saying. Maybe I employ a monkey in a suit, but therefore I have the probation period. But if someone shows up unprepared and dressed like an idiot, he is out unless he really impresses me in an interview. Why start the interview with negative points, if it is so easy to start at zero instead below zero.

I just don't get it.

6 years 51 weeks ago
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biggj123:

You need to dress decent for an interview. it's a persons first impression on you. At least button shirt and nice pants and clean yourself up a bit. If you walk in there with a ac/dc shirt on and cut off jeans........maybe if you were selling weed out of your moms house or something..... but for teaching you should dress presentable. Even for teaching little kids because your clothing puts of respect and authority too. 

6 years 51 weeks ago
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RobRocks:

I was talking about the job Iam in now, not finding a new job.everyone knows who Iam in the job Iam in now

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The problem with most ESL jobs is that they want the best for nothing...so teachers may first join an ESL centre when first arriving in China but the chances of them working for one ever again are almost zero to none if they spend less than 3 years here. With that being said, if they are married to Chinese or consider China a permanent home they may work for an ESL centre but will require much higher compensation than the centre's are usually willing to pay. E.g. 13,000 RMB in Shanghai will get you people who are desperate or don't have the proper credentials or resume`s. 

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Posts: 1072

Shifu

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interestingly i know many FT's who approach the whole area professionally, prepare for classes, research and actually give a flying unicorn to do a good job.

But the treatment by the schools, both public and private training centres, is abysmal, and sucks the life out of them, not to mention the dreadful pay.

 

most schools look for the cheap option and are not willing to pay for a professional approach, especially when a professional approach wlll show them up for what they are - exam mills, not educators.

 

by and large, schools (and parents) don;t want professional teachers who will challenge their 19th century mindset and education system.

RobRocks:

I prepare for classes and I also prepare for demo classes if I were to get  a new job,

 

you cant go into class with  nothing,you need plenty of back up if something does not work.

6 years 51 weeks ago
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Posts: 256

Governor

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It's rare to meet anyone here who has any sense of pride, integrity, or professionalism in their work.
I'm willing to bet that kind of environment attracts those kinds of people.

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It isn't important what do you do ..... only Q is 'how do you do it'!

Shining_brow:

That's what I think!

6 years 51 weeks ago
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icnif77:

Was doing some 'low' jobs, when I 'decided!'  That!

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Hey Shining, 

 

I actually read your post before putting "Do you get paid? Then yes it is a job!"

 

To be honest, I think people are just getting lazier and more entitled. Most people think the world owes them something and that the world has cheated them, so why should THEY have to work for YOU? I often try to work with freelancers to outsource some of my projects and like Zethe says... very FEW actually take their job seriously. 

 

Most just do it to get by while having fun and screwing around in the meantime. ESL fits that mold perfectly so it just happens to attract those types. 

icnif77:

One should always ask her/himself: 'Can they do the job without me?'   

..... to get rid of the 'irreplaceable' feeling.

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Shifu

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After teaching in China for 6 years, I can see why you would ask this question! The ESL situation appears to be getting worse as time goes on. One is the pay is getting less while the government is tightening up on qualifications. Biggi123 has some valid points. But the problems are really profiteering, and the education system. I worked in public schools and colleges. It was pretty descent even if the compensation package worked out to only 150 rmb per hour over the two semesters. The issue here was the disparity in the English level of the students, hence the education system. I have heard a lot of awful stories about training schools though. For the training schools the problem is profiteering. I have to admit I have never really been screwed over by a school nor a recruiter. As for ESL teachers. I have run into a few who I wouldn't hire for any job. But that happens in any country, not just China. Teaching is a "people person job(profession)" ESL in China is slowly becoming a job rather than a profession. Maybe it always has been considering that mom and dad just need money and the kid doesn't have to know anything. If that is the case; why should ESL be considered a "real job"

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Answer of the DayMORE >>
A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77