uberkind:

Why do you assume that I don't understand the concept of free speech.   I was involved in the Cold War fighting for ten years to maintain freedom in the west.

I agree with you regarding the bad things in the world and I do know that very bad things happen in China but before countries to start imposing their standards (or lack of) and preaching to others,  perhaps they should clean up their own act first.

Hulk:

We... see the speck in our own eyes, and we work to remove it. We see the forest in the eye of China, and we're not allowed to say anything?

It just seems like you're always trying to justify the crazy crap that happens here.

uberkind:

My memory is not so good but I think that in the four years that I've been registered here I've only once made a personal attack and that was when I referred to Chrimochina as a bully.   I've lost count of all the personal attacks on me.

uberkind:

As far as I can remember I have NEVER tried to justify anything that happens in China.   I personally am more willing to accept some of the more bizzar behaviour than most perhaps because I've done my fair share of travelling.

Hulk:

So why attack people who get upset about things they find upsetting? If we didn't actually care, we wouldn't say anything. Food for thought.

uberkind:

I don't attack, i question motives.  

i can't help it if people get paranoid because they can't conduct a rational debate.   Convince me that I'm wrong with reasoned arguments, no need to resort to personal jibes and veiled references to the desire to see me dead.   Not referring to you personally of course.

One of the fundamentals of freedom and democracy is the right to question openly and to receive honest answers.   I could be right, I could be wrong, we could beg to differ but there should remain mutual respect.   It is something that I cherish  

Hulk:

Can I ask an honest question? If so many people here dislike you, and don't want you here, why do you keep coming back? You've been banned a fair amount of times, yet you persist in buzzing around like a fly. Just wondering...

uberkind:

Very good question      

As far as I know the 'usual suspects'. (they know who they are), I don't, are very upset because they see me as a threat.   I don't know why, that' their problem.   They have been very hostile perhaps because I've been asking too many difficult questions and taking the piss out of their more outlandish xennaphobic and racist comments.

As far as I'm aware I've never been banned.I did have a heart scare last November and returned swiftly to my beloved National Health Service to get my free treatment and get sorted.   This is my first foray on to echinacities since then.

It is possible that somebody has their knickers in a twist as to my identity.   Up until last November I was lokethebloke and robin hood,  

Recently, feeling better, I decided to have a look around echinacities.   Couldn't remember my passwords so decided t open a new account.   Now I am just uberkind.   

It seems to me that a lot of people have been jumping to conclusions, it seems to be quite common in paranoid organisations.   I've been accused of being many things on here but the most amusing is all the different names that I've been labeled with.

Apart from the 2 identities, I have not lied about anything, paranoid people have jumped to conclusions and gullable people have believed them.

mike168229:

Sorry for wading in but I couldn't help it after "I have done a fair amount of travelling...." comment.

I have been around the world, 34 countries and more than 200 cities. This place infuriates me like no other.

I cannot and will not accept behaviour  that is unreasonable. Even in the backwards hell holes I have been to there is nowhere like China.

uberkind:

Nothing to say about my honest answer to your honest question?

Hulk:

I'm actually really busy. If I can be bothered, I will respond later. Don't fish for replies.

uberkind:

Not fishing, just hoping for politeness.

Hulk:

The only thing that bugs me here is the incredible lack of regard for human life, the constant cheating, and the public bathroom stuff.

Anything else isn't worth getting riled up about.

Traveler:

Hugh: Xenophobia is the irrational or unreasoned fear of anything foreign or strange. The list you gave doesn't reflect peoples' fears, but reasonable and rational observations.

crimochina:

Amen traveler. Amen hulk. but you are a racist because you complain about it

Hugh.G.Rection:

Traveller, it is only 'reasonable' because you are projecting YOUR idea of what is good and bad onto another race.

News Flash, this is their country NOT yours! If you don't like it YOU  can leave, (indeed I believe you have done), 'they' don't have that option.

Secondly the key part of that 'list' wasn't the predicate, it was the word 'they' it is the sweeping generalisations that infer an underlying racism:

i.e. ALL the Chinese do this and my nation doesn't therefore my nation is superior.

It is of course a non sequitir but it does appear on this forum constantly.

xinyuren:

I can't agree with Hugh here.  China is aprox. 80% Han with a standard indoctrination from first grade onward, with even military camps for the children.  This is for the purpose of making everyone in the same mold that the govt needs to stay stable.  China is the most homogeneous society that I have ever seen.  "They" applies more accurately here than anywhere in the West.   Too bad you don't know the definition of xenophobia.  Although, I spend my fair share defending Chinese characteristics, I admit most of the things mentioned in your post are true about the majority of them.   These are characteristics that have been bred into them like cattle.   Are the comments sometimes harsh on this forum?  Yes.   Xenophobic?  Look up the word.

Hugh.G.Rection:

Sorry xinyuren but you are absolutely wrong on the use of the word 'they'.

Unless you can prove that absolutely every single Chinese person of ANY ethnicity is whatever 'label' you are using the use of 'they' is absolutely wrong. 'They' clearly implies 'all'. If you want to avoid prejudiced often racist appearing generalisations it is quite easy; just insert, 'some' or 'many' of even 'most' but 'they' is wrong, (unless you can prove that whatever you are discussing applies to 'all').

xinyuren:

You mean I shouldn't use They unless 100% of the group I am referring to fit the characterization?  Haha, that's a cute little rule(for journalists), but if everyone spoke or wrote this way, communication would be unreasonably wordy and cumbersome.  You are free to communicate as you like, but I think I will stick with the other 99% of people.  It is implicit to most everyone that "They" doesn't necessarily mean 100%, but the vast majority.  

CARLGODWIN1983:

Hugh,

You are wrong.

"They" is like using "You" in a classroom when bollicking a class.  Not all the children have mis-behaved, possibly, but, "You" is used as a generalisation.  The perpetrators who caused the trouble for the class to be in that trouble will know who they are.

Likewise, "They" is a generalisation.  It does not mean every person.  If we really meant everyone, we would say "They all..."

crimochina:

hugh g asliar: "Traveller, it is only 'reasonable' because you are projecting YOUR idea of what is good and bad onto another race."

dishonesty: chinese believe dishonesty is bad, but they do it overwhelming

spitting in a mall or bus: chinese believe this is wrong, but do it overwhelming

etc. i'm not going to go through the laundry list

are we really trying to hold chinese to our values? or are we expecting them to adhere to their own, better yet, just honor the pucking agreement. 

this comes courtesy of one of my students that just read your BS and was insulted by you calling these western values. she said these are chinese values also. 

so who is the racist?

the man who thinks chinese do not have any morals or values when it comes to honesty or urinating on the bus. or me, the person who believes they are in violation of their values. 

from her to you " why does he think he is better than chinese people?" edit: i must correct her question "why does he think he (his) values are better than chinese peoples' (values)"

crimochina:

carl: he is just twisting reality to paintchinese as the victims because he would gladly use "they" when talking negatively about brits, americans, aussies. but when anyone else use they to make a negative observation about china, you are saying each and every one and are racist. no logic to his argument

Hugh.G.Rection:

Carl, when you use 'they' you are referring to the entire group, yes it is the same as 'you' but in English it is the third person plural so 'they' means 'all of them' i.e. all of that group. Therefore when you use 'they' and refer to a race you are referring to the entire race. It really is quite simple.

Coc, more racism from you I see, well we've come to expect if from you now.

Hugh.G.Rection:

Xin, why would adding ONE word to a short sentence i.e. add 'some' or 'many' or 'most' make the language cumbersome? I've been doing it for the majority of my 50 years without any problem, it makes your sentences much more accurate, which may be a reason why quality journalism does it and trash journalism doesn't.

Coc, for the final time, as I tire or debating with true blood, dyed in the wool racists. I am not saying the Chinese don't have morals, or that their morals are right OR wrong, YOU ARE and you are clearly inferring your standards are superior and therefore YOU are being racist, It's a simple idea. If you move to a country and they tell those who live in that nation that their ways are wrong and inferior to yours you are racist and wrong, and what is more, (in the UK at least) you will be given VERY short shrift and invited to Puck of back from whence you came. Now in the UK such people are often muslim immigrants and we are calling that racism every day in the papers and in the news, yet when you do the exact same thing here you expect us all to applaud you for trying to 'educate' the locals? Sorry no I won't applaud racism!

xinyuren:

Chinese people eat rice

Chinese people are proud of their culture

Chinese people can't freely travel to HK and Taiwan

These simple true statements are nullified by your little rule.  I am not a journalist and this website is not a news source.  You can't seem to understand context and situation.  Different type of writing is used depending on context and situation.  That's why most people use "They" when they are obviously not referring to 100% of the target group.  You are apparently the exception but that doesn't make the rest of us racist. BTW, did you not know that Chinese people in China are the same race as Western Chinese, or did you not look up that word either?

JustinF:

Well, my girlfriend never eats rice, and when i asked my Chinese language partner about Chinese culture, her response was that China currently doesn't have any significant culture. She cannot be possibly proud f this, and they would both interpret your statement as being also directed at them instead of some or most Chinese As for Chinese not being able to freely travel to HK or Taiwan, it's because it's a regulation, not a societal behaviour. That's very different from what was said by Hugh. Try replacing "Chinese" with "Blacks" and you'll notice how making generalisations is offensive.

xinyuren:

Justin, I'm trying to decide if you are joking or if everything we are talking about has gone way over your head.  If you are joking, you have an interesting sense of humor.  If you're serious, please stop clogging the messageway, you're not getting it.

Hugh.G.Rection:

Xinyuren, can you prove to me (or anyone else) absolutely that 100% of Chinese people,  "eat rice" or "are proud of their culture" or "can't freely travel to HK and Taiwan" then you are STILL wrong, unless it is true for absolutely EVERY single Chinese person on this planet YOU CANNOT SAY THEY without making a sweeping generalisation. As I said above if you use 'they' in reference to a group of people the inference is clearly that you mean all of them, be that a group of 5 or an entire race. I cannot help it if you (and others) continue to use language the makes you (and them) sound racist, I can only point it out.

Oh and btw I can prove your "Chinese people eat rice" example is wrong as my brother-in-law never eats rice and hasn't since birth as he is seriously allergic to it.

Edit, and btw Xin, Justin's response above sums up the idea very well, so I would say yes he is 'getting it'.

xinyuren:

Aiyo!  I love spirited arguments, but I lose patience when I have to educate the other on the parameters of the discussion.  Depending on the context and situation, Chinese people eat rice is an accurate enough statement (In fact, many Chinese people have told me just that).  In your world,  the statement "Chinese people eat rice" should never be said (banned) because it isn't 100% technically accurate, because I didn't check all 500 million households in China to confirm it.  It's a good thing we don't live in your world.  And only Justin mentioned anything about it being offensive.  My argument was that this way of speaking does not make someone xenophobic or racist (two words you don't understand).  My Chinese friend says, "Chinese people love their culture."  Is he wrong or is he generally right, or "right enough" for the situation?  Western people are taught to think about things and adjust their understanding depending on context.  Maybe you have been in China too long.  Generalizations often lead to offense and some of the generalizations in this forum are harsh.  I have already said that!  But it doesn't mean the speaker is racist or xenophobic.  Now I hope both of you get it.  Look up racist.  Look up xenophobia.  When you get up to speed, maybe we can continue this discussion.

Hugh.G.Rection:

Correct Xin!

When referring to an entire race accuracy is essential or at the very minimum you sound racist and if you sound racist it is quite acceptable for people to so label you.

I NEVER say anything about an entire race, why? Because unless I can prove it is accurate (for them all) it is RACIST!

Simple rule, when referring to a race "accurate enough" is NEVER enough, precision is required if you wish to put a point across without sounding racist. Obviously many on this site don't see the need for such precision so myself and other like-minded people are free to label them racist.

Hugh.G.Rection:

Sorry xinyuren, one qualifier to my pervious comments, obviously "Chinese eat rice" is not racist, it is a sweeping generalisation but it does not infer a feeling or belief of superiority over the Chinese so is not racist.

The racism comes in when the generalisation is used when pointing to things the speaker thinks (or clearly infers) are actions or beliefs that are inferior to his / her own.

xinyuren:

Remember when i told you to get up to speed first?  You are inaccurately using racism here.  This forum is about people in China!  American born, Australian born, and anywhereelse born Chinese are not at issue here.  So this couldn't possibly be racism.  This is about people born on mainland China, not an entire race.  Anyone who comments in this forum clearly understands this (remember my point about context?).  This is just a casual expat shouting space.  Racism is everywhere.  But you can't identify it just by someone using a generalization.  Good grief.  You're worse than some black people I know.

Hugh.G.Rection:

Xinyuren, I think it's time YOU got up to speed. If you scroll up to my reply to Coc, you will see the merriem-webster definition of race and it most definitely included everyone born in one nation. So mainland Chinese is 'one race'. Therefore if you make a disparaging remark against them all you are being racist.

It's quite simple, scroll up and read the dictionary!

Hugh.G.Rection:

Xinyuren: To save .you the effort of finding the post where I went through the dictionary on this matter here is the link (you will find links there to the dictionary definitions).

http://answers.echinacities.com/question/it-possible-go-week-without-being-called-refered-waiguoren?&showid=151771#answer151771

xinyuren:

Umm.... this is getting a little embarrassing for me.  Chinese people of the world share the same history, language and culture.  They have the same physical(biological) makeup.  You actually think that mainland Chinese are a different race from HK Chinese or American Chinese?  So are all Americans also of the same race???  I will stop now.  we are not even having a rational conversation.

Hugh.G.Rection:

Once again you are correct, you are not being rational, you are cherry picking the parts of my comments that you deem fit your pre-determined position.

What I said was in response to you comment that YOU said we cannot class ALL Chinese together i.e. those born outside China to those born inside. I pointed out and provided a dictionary link to prove you wrong, i.e. the definition of race is a group of individuals who consider themselves to have a common cultural bond, or words to that effect. You took that (presumably without reading the dictionary) and tried to force-fit it into your stance, that indeed is neither rational nor logical.

xinyuren:

"YOU said we cannot class ALL Chinese together i.e. those born outside China to those born inside." 

uberkind:

Very true

TedDBayer:

@uberdin*, That would be because you LIKE to argue, you like conflict.  It's not that you are pro-China, you just like to argue.You take an opposing view to everything. I once complained about people shitting around my apartment and you tried to make it a good thing. There is a reason you get told, but I believe that you do like it. No one jumps on me for being weird.

uberkind:

Ted,   Not quite correct, I happen to believe that people are entitled to have choices and alternatives so that they can make their own minds up about things  and not be bullied into conforming.   I'm a non~conformist and yes I'll argue that black is white and white is black if it means that I'm able to expose hypocrisy, narrow minded bigotry and racism.   Couldn't care less what people call me. not too keen on being threatened with death but very upset when being impersonated on here.

TedDBayer:

Ub,,like I said you just love to argue, black is black.

Hugh.G.Rection:

I don't often agree 100% with you but I do this time. Thumbs up from me.

crimochina:

supportive how? by ignoring rape? by not talking about the abuse of power? exactly how should we be supportive? if i act as if the school system is perfect, i am supporting the mental enslavement of a people.

uberkind:

Crimo, are you referring to China or the USA?

crimochina:

only employees of the ccp are allowed multiple accounts and to comeback after banning, you don't see a reincarnation of kchur anywhere. and he died exposing a wumao

ambivalentmace:

based on the discussions here, i am a racist, but i dont care what other people think, and i dont attack others because if  they are like me, it would not change anything and be a waste of time. i have been to every country in the world and racism is everywhere, judging others is everywhere, criticism is everywhere, china just happens to be the very best  thanks to a wall and isolation, better at these things by 200 years in the past.

the only thing that bothers me is ass kissers that china should go ahead and give a chinese passport so i dont have to claim them as part of the western civilization of enlightened humans walking the earth..

crimochina:

he is chinese and he is actually a paid wumao that uses many different ids and has been banned multiple times. loke, old major, noballs.

uberkind:

No, I'm a British person complaining about people complaining about China.  

Some people can't understand how a brit can be so anti their views that they label me a wumao and lots of other things besides.    I think it helps them to justify their hatred.

uberkind:

I'm a big fan of freedom of speech but it's not a one way street.

CARLGODWIN1983:

Looking at the standard of your English, I don't believe you are CHinese.  I am still astonished though that you state what you do.

You are right that freedom of speech is not a one-way street, but, you were the one who came on here and lambasted people for complaining about China.  You are entitled to your opinion, but, don't come on here just dictating people are wrong or this that and the other.

It's just a seeming fact that your opinions are in the minority.

uberkind:

I just did to them what they have been doing to the Chinese for years.   Tried to open their eyes to their own vile behaviour.   A mirror, if you like!

CARLGODWIN1983:

So all the things that people list on this forum, and on others, and in general conversations daily are not vile then?  Yet, the people who are complaining about these things and others are vile?

With that mindset, it's no wonder standards are dropping in the UK.

uberkind:

They could try doing it in a more constructive manner.   I was just copying their destructive ways and boy did they not like that.   And they still don't..

Traveler:

Uberkind: I am sorry I called you a nasty name. You were right to get me banned for 2 days. You were right to get so many comments criticising you and wumaos deleted. They were unfair, as you are obviously British.

It is very clear to me, after two days of solemn reflection, that you are not Chinese and you are not a wumao. I hope someday, somehow, you can find it in your heart to forgive me, and all the other misguided foreigners on this forum. Thank you in advance. Thank you. Thank you.