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Posts: 376

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Q: Has your opinion on Chinese society changed over time?

The more I learn about China, the more I don't like their society. I respect tradition and many Chinese people are being nice and considerate. I can't say I'm having a bad time.

 

What I've noticed, though, is that I just want to be an observer, I don't want to stay in China forever. 

 

What do people who have lived in China for 5+ years think about Chinese society? Do you feel you belong there?

10 years 34 weeks ago in  Culture - China

 
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Posts: 2578

Emperor

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I only been here 2 years.... married a wonderful, beautiful Chinese girl .... It has been a struggle to get to know her and her family stuff, but it is my struggle.....I think they (my new family) have a better outlook on life than my family back in Canada .....Yes I think I belong here and Yes I think I will be happier here for a lot more years than I would be back at home...............  slaving to the age of 70ish just so the bank don't get my home. ...that's not real ....... but but

angelina8:

You're not working in China, right? 

10 years 34 weeks ago
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BHGAL:

right..... not working here..all kinds of time to appreciate what the locals really do appreciate and in my humble opinion ..... it is not "money" as many might suggest, it is family happiness ..... .  

10 years 34 weeks ago
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angelina8:

:)Ha You're having an extended holiday instead of working in Canada. Why wouldn't you like living in China.

10 years 34 weeks ago
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BHGAL:

I love it here in southern China....what in my comments has made you think otherwise?

10 years 34 weeks ago
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angelina8:

I know you love China, but your experience is different. You're vacationing and your family is taking care of you.

10 years 34 weeks ago
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BHGAL:

not "vacationing"  ... this is my new home.... and believe me it is a much quieter and more pleasant home than the one I had in BC...you could be this content too, if you just let it be

10 years 34 weeks ago
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angelina8:

Many people choose to retire in Spain. Now, if you ask any of the thousands of unemployed young Spaniards, you won't get the same impression.

10 years 34 weeks ago
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10 years 34 weeks ago
 
Posts: 204

Governor

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A little over 4 years now, and yes, my ideas have changed. I used to hope for some positive changes for the people here and can't deny they have taken place, but at what cost? Famine is history; enter greed, selfishness, anti-social behavior, and above all, the stunning ability to close one's eyes for absurdity and injustice. So I says to myself, this is how they want it themselves, just let them do it and we'll talk again 200 years from now. And as long as I'm here, I'm going to spread my gospel and try to open at least a few of those eyes and make as much money as I can. The old world can use it.

angelina8:

What gospel? Is this a metaphor?

 

So you have sorta lost hope for things changing in near future.

10 years 34 weeks ago
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Hulk:

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by gospel?

10 years 34 weeks ago
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Vyborg:

Gospel, I was not referring to the life of Christ here but to a set of values concerning human dignity, caring for others, civilized behaviour in public space, and also about clear thinking, effective organization, communication, the things that Chinese society lacks a bit. And to Angelina, the fact that things are changing so fast and unpredictably still makes the stay in China worthwhile. I can hardly imagine a more interesting situation than China, with its long history of isolation, trying to find a place in the worlds community with most inhabitants unaware of that (or with the most warped ideas). Whether all those changes within China are for the better or not is hard to say, but I feel to increasingly doubt my own ability to judge has made me a better person. (well, there's something about that in the original biblical Gospel as well, isn't there?)

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Emperor

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Sometimes I feel I belong (stress on I; China's don't think I belong, rightfully so). With the understanding that I am always an Outsider. I've lived abroad most of my life, being an outsider is normal.  Hard to explain what I mean, but kinda true. Some Outsiders pass that, but it depends on country you are in, and then still super rare.  I know a dude been in Phil 40 years. More Insider than most Phils,, he fits in as an Insider, but still in some ways treated as an Outsider.

 

Anyway, what does it matter?  If you wanna 'be at home', then stay at home.  haha

 

The other part of your question; has my opinion on China society changed? Yep, after u been here long enough, u see reality. Not Rose-colored glasses. Chinese is just as fucked-up as the rest of the world, multiplied by 1.4 billion trying to recover from 20th century. Uncle M and Cultural Revolution put the butt-fk on this country. Simple truth.

10 years 34 weeks ago
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angelina8:

I get it, part of your identity is that of being the foreigner. I am also drawn by a similar romanticist quest for exploration. China is the first foreign country I have lived in, maybe I'm now becoming an insider. :) I'm noticing the struggles of people in China more and more. 

10 years 34 weeks ago
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diverdude1:

wow,  first country,,,, hehe,, I kinda remember that feeling,, Scotland, 1969.  Well, Angelina,, welcome to club.  :-) enjoy the ride... :-p

10 years 34 weeks ago
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happywanderer:

'69?  Whoah you have been on the road for a while.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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Posts: 618

Governor

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Yeah, I had some idea about "it" before coming here, but my opinion definitely has changed. There are many nice things I didn't know about. Now I can think back to some of the people I've met here. The "normal" ones I meet on the bus, the bubble tea employees, and so forth, have left me with a good feeling.

 

Actually before living in Asia all I knew about China was that a lot of my HS and uni buddies were Chinese and were sufficiently out of here not to be a part of "it" so I never knew about "it". Also I read a good deal of ancient Chinese philosophy such as the Tao Te Ching and I Ching, but it seems like in those days "it" hadn't happened yet. "It" seems more like the Art of War than the wise earlier classics. "It" may be clever but it's also stupid. I don't like "it" at all, but I fondly enjoy some of the connections that have happened here.

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10 years 34 weeks ago
 
Posts: 379

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The longer I'm here the less I understand. 

 

No matter how hard I try to fathom the actions of some people it seems to be useless. 

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Posts: 138

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I suggest you the books written by Peter Hessler.He spent many years in different areas in China.And what I think is the most important and valuable point is that he was a outsider at first,then a insider,after that he became a man with a outsider's curiosity and keen insight while also a insider's understanding and comprehension.He wrote 3 books about China and they are really impressive.

angelina8:

What's so impressive about his books? Apart from the number of copies sold? Can you suggest any Chinese writers? I'm trying to read 鲁迅.

10 years 34 weeks ago
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djangolee:

at first to me the most attractive part of his book is his open mind.thats something easy to say but hard to do.for example,most guys here hate people staring at them.they probably think:shit,whats wrong with you locals here?the first reaction when they get uncomfortable by some local people or things is antipathy.However peter will always have a very positive altitude and be both interestd and confused.sometimes just like you guys do,he will just let it go but most times he will try to communicate with various people and figure out why.on the other hand,he tried to be a normal person in this country he rented a house in village and went there to observe a farmer's life.I heard there is a famous saying in economic"you will know the whole economic well if you know the philosophy of poor people".no one has the right to comment china if he does know what life the farmers are living.THERE ARE NEARLY 1 BILLION FARMERS IN CHINA.anyway he try to make friends with so many kinds of people,farmers in the village,farmers working in cities,ordinary workers in companies.newrich who own their own factories,students(he used to be a teacher like you guys),etc.he try to describe a total scene of china and pay more attentions to the places and people being ignored.calm observation,precise describe,open minded,respect,mercy...I think the books really worth reading. 鲁迅 is a great writer. do you know why he chose this name when he wrote articles? because it sounds like NOTHING!one of his most brilliant book is 阿Q正传.its considered as the best novel describing Chinese personality.he is so sharp that when I read his books sometimes I myself even feel embarrassed.there is a famous story about him.someone asked chairman mao,"what will 鲁迅 do if he is still alive now?"mao answered,"he would be in prison".

10 years 34 weeks ago
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angelina8:

What do you mean by teacher like you guys? I'm a grad student. 

I haven't read 阿Q yet, someday... Why did you feel embarrassed when reading it?

 

I'm not that interested in Hessler. My brother is actually a FARMER, so I'm not into 'exotica'. Traditionally, my 爷爷's family were rice farmers, my father switched to an another crop. My 爷爷 used to take me to the rice fields when I was a kid. I can write better books than Hessler. Plus I can compare the legacy of the Ottoman Empire and how farmers lived back then with farmers during the Qing Dynasty. Plus Socialism, collectivization.

10 years 34 weeks ago
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djangolee:

Im sorry because it seems many people here are teachers .. 鲁迅 is very sharp as I mentioned,in some articles of him he spared no effort to criticize the bad personalities of most Chinese and bad things in our tradition.not in reserved way but straight,strong,icecool.maybe it has something to do with his experience that he tried to be a doctor when he was young. also,Im not sure if we have same understanding of farmer……in china many farmers or villagers stand for the poorest class.there is rarely a RICH FARMER here.you can regard it as slumdog in china.the largest amount of people live a most terrible life.quit school after 10 or 11 because of no money is very often

10 years 34 weeks ago
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angelina8:

Don't worry, my brother is not poor. He has good cars and motorcycles, he doesn't breathe polluted air, he owns property.

Why does a farmer have to be a dirty word?

10 years 34 weeks ago
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djangolee:

now I realise my English is so bad that makes you misunderstand my words-_-! Im trying to say,china is so diverse and to many expats living and working in cities they dont know what the life of other districts in china are like,by other districts I mean villages.if we wanna talk about china we should take them in consideratian because there are still so many people live in villages now and many people living in cities left villages a few years ago. so if somebody wants to comment china he should know it well first.if he wants to know it well he should really really go to villages and take a look at those people.the medias in both china and western countries pay much more attentions on cities of china rather than villages.but the root of china is in village life because this country has been a agricultural country for so many years. there is another writer in china named 余华.I love his books especially these three 活着,许三观卖血记,兄弟.Zhang yimou shot a film based on the novel活着.

10 years 34 weeks ago
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angelina8:

Thanks, I will try to read the books you suggested. 

 

Why are you so prejudiced towards laowai? Why do you think laowai are not interested in Chinese rural life and don't know anything about it?

 

Be open-minded!

10 years 34 weeks ago
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djangolee:

AHHHHHHH!!

Believe me plz.!I really dont have prejudice towards you foreigners.If so I will just leave this site instead of trying to get things clear like what  Im doing now.Also I had lived in village for more than 15 years so I will never think farmer or villager is a bad word.

 

Think about the reasons below:

1.most foreigners work and live in cities while very few in villages.

2.maybe some of them are interested in Chinese rural life.but it's very hard for them to experience a REAL farmer's life,especially in those very poor districts.The govn will try to stop foreigners' entering or visiting because they are afraid of  journalists and reporters from western countries showing the true life there to the world which will make them feel humiliated ,you know, "LOSE FACE" stuff.

3.I will be very glad if more and more people are interested in Chinese rural life.At least because of this the govn may pay more attentions there and really do something to make them live better.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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angelina8:

.maybe some of them are interested in Chinese rural life.but it's very hard for them to experience a REAL farmer's life,especially in those very poor districts.The govn will try to stop foreigners' entering or visiting because they are afraid of  journalists and reporters from western countries showing the true life there to the world which will make them feel humiliated

 

 

I've seen rural China. I had a Chinese boyfriend and he took me to see his family in rural Guangdong. You don't want to know what his old Junior Middle School looked like. Do you want me to send you the photos? It was Chinese New Year and there weren't any classes because of the vacations, but I thought that the school had been deserted for decades. 

I also heard terrible stories from my ex boyfriend, how his father had siblings who died of starvation when they were children. His father had only one meal a day and survived.

 

I know you are a good guy. You wouldn't you use the name Django if you were a racist. I pretty much grew up with African-American culture, too. 

 

I'm not comfortable with you putting all foreign people into the same basket. Also, it's insulting to say: oh, you foreign people, you don't know much about Chinese farmers. My hate is more directed at people like Hessler than directed at you. Maybe I should have expressed my hatred of Hessler more directly.

 

Anyway, I'm going to spend a day in Belgrade this month, do you want a postcard? Or maybe I can write a book like some American people do and you will believe my propaganda.

10 years 33 weeks ago
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djangolee:

Always a pleasure communicating with wise posters here like you.

 

Speaking of Hessler,maybe because reading his books is kind of looking back my motherland from a totally different angle.And personally I like his calm and precise description.It's fine that we have different opinions about him.agree to disagreewink

 

One of my friend spent 2 years being a voluntary teacher in a school in mountain areas.I went there to visit her with another friend once and she told me the schools in some areas of Yunnan province,Guangxi province and many other places are more terrible.And my mother also lost 2 brothers in the starvation when she was a kid. 

I think you can really think about writing a booksmiley.Let me know and I will buy one for sure

 

 

 

10 years 33 weeks ago
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angelina8:

I'm sorry for your mother's family, it must have been terrible, my condolences.

 

Not planning to write a book.

 

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Posts: 981

Shifu

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I'm in the over 5 years club.  Most people don't get it for at least a few years here - we're all familiar with the honeymoon phase but I mean more than that.  Even when that ends and all you see is the dust, insects, and spitting you're probably still trying to integrate to some degree.  But the thing that gets me even more than all the bad manners, pollution, and other day-to-day madness is the bland smile on your friend's face when they stab you in the back.  We all know behaviours are different here than from back home and the ones considered rude are the easiest to observe and complain about, but it's only when you've known some Chinese people for a long time and let them get close to you that you can really be hurt.  I've been betrayed on numerous occasions and the sheer viciousness of some of them have often left me just sitting and staring at the walls totally bewildered and thinking what the hell did I do to deserve that?  Crimo wrote a good post on this:

has being used made you cold and business only minded?

And that is why no matter what improvements are made in areas like manners, common sense, the health services or whatever else bothers you, I will never feel that I belong here.  Ever.  I know there are good people here, it's just in my experience they're a bit thin on the ground.

angelina8:

bland smile on your friend's face when they stab you in the back

 

​Shivers 

10 years 34 weeks ago
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happywanderer:

I still have faith in one thing though - my good and trusted friend that comes in a bottle labeled Tsingtao .

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Opinions change when you start spending too much time around foreigners who only have negative things to say about China while eating at McDonald's almost everyday, drinking beer all day and never being able to say more than ni hao, pi jiu, ting bu dong and xiexie.

GuilinRaf:

Very true.

In Guilin there were quite a few like that.  It really gets draining to hear nothing but complaints. After a while, I chose which foreigners to hang out with.

10 years 34 weeks ago
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sam239:

Same in SE Asia, the retirees there live quite a good lifestyle but still manage to complain non-stop. I'd rather be around people who try to remain positive.

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Posts: 915

Shifu

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(I haven't read the myriad dissertations answering your question, although I am sure most, if not all, are quite illuminating.)  In my case:

I never had an opinion about China before moving here 5 years ago.  So without an initial opinion, nothing has changed.  But I have formed an opinion since moving here and this is it:

China is a country in a state of flux and rapid change; it is still finding its feet as it lumbers along the not-easy path of development; China is champing at the bit for real change and reform to become more of a competitive world player and decision-maker; China is fickle and changes its mind more frequently than a 3-year-old deciding if broccoli is good to eat or not, or a 16-year-old boy/girl choosing a prom partner; China is both an exciting and dull place to be in right now.  There are numerous (implicit) freedoms to be enjoyed and then there is a deficit of (explicit) freedoms to miss, depending upon your orientation, expectations, lifestyle and world view.

Bottom line: I believe that Chinese citizens and non-citizens alike, living in China, share the same aspirations, dreams, fears and frustrations coz, in the final analysis, we are what we are: human.

Sh*t.  I forgot to mention the key to China's dilemma/morality play/existential puzzle: EDUCATION.  Nuff said...

angelina8:

So even Chinese people are confused by the rapid changes, we are all human. Maybe I should stop blaming them for the mess. 

 

When it comes to education, I think it is changing for the better. I come from a society where education is plagued by corruption, cheating, plagiarism. I've heard stories about such practices in China, e.g. you should buy presents for your thesis supervisor. The difference between my country and China is that at least things are changing in China.

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Posts: 61

Governor

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Chinese society is changing everyday but it will never ever be the same as your homeland's. So as long as you're staying here all by yourself, you will not find a solid sense of belonging. That is to say, China is just China,no matter how good a place it could become of it's just a land where you fight alone.

angelina8:

China is not home, just a temporary home

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happywanderer:

Can I ask where you're from angelina?

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