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Q: Have the differences in value systems between Chinese and foreigners affected you?
A lot of foreigners (especially foreign teachers) who come to China do not do so for money. People I've met have a variety of reasons for coming to China including an adventure, an obsession with Chinese language and culture, lack of job prospects back home, a chance to travel around Asia, a love for teaching, running away from personal problems, or to semi-retire while doing something exciting. I'd say that most foreigners who come to China do not prioritize money and material possessions. Again, these observations are probably more true for the esl crowd than for entrepreneurs or MNC workers.
Now the value system of these foreigners is in many ways diametrically opposed to that of most Chinese. These foreigners are seeking life experiences while most Chinese prioritize owning a house, a car and flashy material possessions above all else. Views towards love and marriage are a lot different too as foreigners typically have a more idealized version of marriage being about love while Chinese typically see it more as a strategic partnership.
The recent thread about the American struggling with the costs of marrying a Chinese got me thinking about this. How have you seen these cultures and value systems clash? I'm guessing there are many instances when Chinese think a foreigner is very rich because the Chinese see that foreigner traveling, eating and drinking out a lot and generally spending a lot of money. Those Chinese probably assume there is some nonexistent hundreds of thousands (or more) rmb lying around somewhere when the foreigner is more likely than not living almost paycheck to paycheck. Or the Chinese become shocked that a foreigner's parents won't buy them a house and a car as a condition for marriage (or make a large financial contribution). I've seen this tension at various levels both in my own life (though I don't have it too bad) and in the lives of friends. For example, a friend had to pay a dowry to marry his Chinese wife. He didn't have the money at the time of the wedding so he's had to pay it off in installments over time. Another friend had to spend tens of thousands on rmb on gold jewelry and furniture to get married. He got off easy as her family initially demanded a house. Another friend had to deal with his Chinese wife's family constantly complaining that they contributed a lot to the marriage but the American's parents contributed nothing. The American parents gave in and bought them a car for 100,00 rmb.
The tension I speak of does not only exist in terms of marriage. A friend of mine recently went home to New Zealand for Spring Festival and had his Chinese colleagues going nuts over how much he spent on his plane ticket, with one proclaiming "you foreigners are so rich." I've been told that going to Thailand was a waste because I could have bought 2 Iphones for the cost of the plane tickets. There is a real tension between priorities of lots of Chinese and foreigners, especially when it comes to how people typically spend their money.
Have you noticed this tension? How has it affected your life and the lives of people around you? Has it let to conflict or misunderstandings?
I have adapted. Here are a few examples:
I used to give to charities, because I was told since my childhood that charity is good. Now I never give to any in China, because it will either end up in some official's pockets or the celebrity that sponsors the campaign will use it for personal expenses unrelated to charity.
Back home (or in most other countries) I will run to help if someone falls down, get hit by a vehicle or is in urgent need for a good samaritan. In China I won't even bat an eyelid since there is a good 90% chances that it's either a scam, the person will walk away after you put yourself in danger (to help them) and are still in it, or they will claim compensation from you even if it wasn't a scam at first. But back home I would still help even after so many years in China.
These are only 2 cases among countless.
Basic rules of politeness too:
I used to hold the door for people, because I was always told it's basic politeness, and the next person should logically hold it after you, here they walked by without even looking at me and with an attitude, now I slam doors into Chinese people's faces without even looking at them.
I used to hold the elevator when I heard people walking in from the front door in my building, but no one ever held it for me even when they saw me coming right in front of it. Now I always press the button to close the door, especially when I can hear or see someone coming in.
And so on...
Lord_hanson:
I agree with some of that. I lost a few values whilst in China. The basic politeness though, I keep this for myself. It is the only thing that seperates us from animals. You will find a lot of tge younger generation are starting to be a little polite. In my building where I live I hold the door open at first people didn't do it for me. After a while they remember that you helped them and they start doing it to.
gouxiong:
Dear Eorthisio,
So you say that you became, in your own words, 'uneducated peasant' and you are still accusing Chinese from the same?
What a hypocrisy ... :)
Too be honest, the only times i have seen this tension is on this website! Again, geography seems to play a role. Parents seem to take a harder line up north.
Me personally, I am blessed. The inlaws are pretty western. They just wanted their daughter loved. They asked for a dowry for show. Any money they have ever gotten has been for face and secretly returned. They love me as their own. Very kind people. I just got a birthday present from my brother in law and my birthday is next month! He just saw it and thought of me.
They do prioritize saving themselves. But they also understand we are young and enjoy doing shit. They generally seem happy about the amount spent on car and travel. Or they just keep to themselves. They enjoy travelling themselves so they cant say too much.
I think the basic idea is that they are very confident their daughter and grandkids will always have food and a roof. So they just leave us be
The majority of my friends are Chinese and they also value experiences over possessions. Dont get me wrong, they have iphones and cars too, but they dont see thailand as a waste. Weekends are drinken trips to Macau or hot springs. Road trips to other provinces ect. May 1st we will all go to inner mongolia for a week for a friends wedding. Turned into a huge group family travel. I just dont see the clash.
Me and my wife differ on small insignificant things. Like her faking a problem with too much AC use, tiny shit like that, but she never questions what I eat or buy, and we just seem to agree on 99% of shit right off the bat. One of the many reasons why i asked her to marry me.
So yes, i hear often of these clashes but see none myself. They are bigfoot. I believe that if the girl and guy truly loved each other, the wife would defend against that stuff and the parents would see you for you and accept you as is. I have no doubts that at the beginning of our relationship my girl had endless battles with the parents and kept it all from me.i never heard a word. Its been great with her parents from the start.
Now excuse me while i go wash my rose colored glasses.
I don't know. People with money are able to make more comfortable decisions than those that do not. To be honest, I prefer the Chinese method of saving up and buying things you can afford rather than the Western method of living pay-check to pay-check.
Far too stressful, and it is no way to go through life.
That being said... some Chinese are huge misers or can't really see any purpose in spending money for travel, comfort or a more enjoyable life like Westerners.
I think somewhere in the middle of both cultural vales is best, like usual.
Scandinavian:
lots of shit in China is financed, lots of people are living from pay check to pay check.... and remember the thread about eating trash to save up for a smart phone ?
Robk:
@Scan - True, that has changed in recent time. A lot more Chinese are living on credit and use credit cards. But when I first came to China it was very different. Usually most Chinese would borrow from family if they borrowed at all.
Western culture and allure of bigger and better has had a great affect on China.
Sinobear:
Shanghai people are supposed to be living at a rate of 350% BM (beyond-their-means) . Borrowing for investment purposes is something that should not be done.
The difference only really affects me in the bar.
If the locals are in, there is no such thing as a quiet pint.
Its bang bang bang, gambei gambei, bang bang, scream scream.
it enough to curdle my beer at times 
this wil probably sound pathetic, but i'm playing a game called Crusader Kings 2, which simulates family dynasties from the time of Charlemagne to the high middle ages. i'm basically playing a dynasty, starting with just one member, chieftain of a county in scotland. the game is about growing the influence of your dynasty through marriages and successions over the generations. basically like in Game of Thrones - there's even a mod version where you can play Westeros instead of Europe. anyway, your landed titles, possessions and alliances are valuable things that should be taken seriously, so, marriages are arranged with this in mind. love was something that was considered unimportant, or a feeling that would grow in time.
Chinese, whether they have lots or little, still consider this dynastic shit to be vital. after having divorced a girl who basically bled me dry and left for greener pastures, i can see both the positive and negative of traditionalism. chinese take marriage vows seriously.
foreigners coming to marry in China are basically "in their court", so a daugher's parents feel they can force a matrilineal marriage(MIL moves in), where the children are of the mother's dynasty. if the husband's family contributes nothing, that's probably seen as being lowborn, major prestige loss for the girl's parents, so the foreigner should shut up and be happy his kids will be upper class.
when it comes to providing for kids, traditionally there's a strict agnatic gavelkind succession, where assets are passed on to sons only, and daughters are married off to other "dynasties". chinese who only have a daughter are sad, as it means the end of their dynastic branch. unless a foreigner submits to a matrilineal marriage, that is.
attitudes are changing, but i feel people are still trying to game the new/old system to their advantage.
Sinobear:
That's why I always say if it benefits them - it's tradition. If it benefits you - it's passé.
Sinobear:
No, Shogun Warlord is the best game ever! Fight, fight, fight!!!
coineineagh:
It took me a while to get used to the complexity. I've played Europa Universalis 1 through 4, but I passed on CK1. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, and I had to get used to the idea of delegating, and just accepting that you can't control everything. I guess I gave CK2 a proper try because EU4 allows you to convert your CK2 endgame save file, so you can go into the colonial & renaissance eras. After that, I wouldn't be surprised if Victoria 2 allows conversion from EU4 saves too.
I have adapted. Here are a few examples:
I used to give to charities, because I was told since my childhood that charity is good. Now I never give to any in China, because it will either end up in some official's pockets or the celebrity that sponsors the campaign will use it for personal expenses unrelated to charity.
Back home (or in most other countries) I will run to help if someone falls down, get hit by a vehicle or is in urgent need for a good samaritan. In China I won't even bat an eyelid since there is a good 90% chances that it's either a scam, the person will walk away after you put yourself in danger (to help them) and are still in it, or they will claim compensation from you even if it wasn't a scam at first. But back home I would still help even after so many years in China.
These are only 2 cases among countless.
Basic rules of politeness too:
I used to hold the door for people, because I was always told it's basic politeness, and the next person should logically hold it after you, here they walked by without even looking at me and with an attitude, now I slam doors into Chinese people's faces without even looking at them.
I used to hold the elevator when I heard people walking in from the front door in my building, but no one ever held it for me even when they saw me coming right in front of it. Now I always press the button to close the door, especially when I can hear or see someone coming in.
And so on...
Lord_hanson:
I agree with some of that. I lost a few values whilst in China. The basic politeness though, I keep this for myself. It is the only thing that seperates us from animals. You will find a lot of tge younger generation are starting to be a little polite. In my building where I live I hold the door open at first people didn't do it for me. After a while they remember that you helped them and they start doing it to.
gouxiong:
Dear Eorthisio,
So you say that you became, in your own words, 'uneducated peasant' and you are still accusing Chinese from the same?
What a hypocrisy ... :)
