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Q: Have I just had good luck?
Iv been reading a lot of the posts here lately. I am a 33 year old white guy. In my 6 years in China I have never experienced any overt racism. Never been refused service at a business. I have never been told to get out of China, or that I will never be Chinese. In fact my Chinese co-workers often tell me I am easily approachable and they often forget Im a foreigner. I have never been insulted or challenged by drunken Chinese groups, but I have been invited to their tables and had my food paid for at night BBQ stands many times. I have never been treated unfairly by the cops, all my interactions have been nothing but positive, including a traffic accident where I was found not at fault. Me and my Chinese wife have never been insulted, at least openly.
However, according to most posts here we are hated, discriminated against, treated like slaves at work and looked down upon by everyone. My experience has been the complete opposite, have I just been lucky?
You still get foreigner prices wherever you shop. You might not think you do, you might even think you're good at bargaining, but if there's one thing you are 100% guaranteed to get here, it's racist prices.
Jesl:
I will not dispute that, which is why I let my wife do most of the shopping. However, several weeks ago I bought a roasted sweet potato from a street seller who always hangs around my office. The receptionist asked me how much I paid then got pissed off when my amount was lower than what she paid and declared "Im never buying from him again!" It was quite funny, but it is the exception, not the norm.
I'm with you! Been here a similar time to you and have had similar experiences. I think it's just down to how different people have different outlooks on life. I've had foreigners tell me I'm naive and just don't see what's really going on. There might be an element of truth to that, but I also think a lot of people are just very negative about the whole China experience and see racism where there is none. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Also I like to consider myself as happy and smiley, and think that makes me very difficult to abuse. Just think about it, if someone is friendly and cheerful it's very difficult to be anything but friendly and cheerful back. Some people let China got on top of them sometimes and walk around with a face like thunder , therefore making themselves much easier targets for abuse.
It may be regional...it seems southern Chinese are less confrontational than the North, or so I have heard. I didn't feel quite so special in Wenzhou as I did in rural Jilin.
Eorthisio:
Seems to be the case, here in Foshan Guangdong a second tier city people don't stare or talk about the foreigner and go on about their business, even the farmers could not give less of a damn about you. Whenever I am in the North, even in Beijing there are people staring and they are not waidiren but very local. There are definitely 2 major cultures in China, the Southern "Cantonese" culture (also most of Fujian) is more about business and money, more individualistic, while the Northern "Mandarin" culture is about drinking and eating and enjoying life, more group minded. And remember, to Cantonese people everything North of Qingyuan is the North, to the rest of China it's everything North to the Yangtze.
Well, congrats on your good luck, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem for others.
I've had black friends in the US who were never harassed by the police, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem for others. One person, or even several people, not experiencing racism doesn't mean it's not a problem for others.
Jesl:
Maybe it is partly a regional thing, I have lived in Guangdong most of my years. However, I also believe it is the way people carry themselves. I know several foreigners who have been here for years, can't speak a word of Chinese, only hang out with other foreigners and are convinced every Chinese is out to scam or cheat them. Then there is the, usually old and fat, loud obnoxious buffoon that sexually harasses every girl he meets and generally has a disrespectful attitude and considers himself "above" the locals. Last but not least is the guy who cannot handle alcohol and turns aggressive and loud after a couple pints, yet still insist on drinking like a fish even after several fights/incidents and even run ins with the cops. These types of people probably will not get a warm reception in China.
I don't really experience racism to the degree that someone has been out to get me or something. Most times, it is just stupid comments or stares.
But there is the other side of the coin where Chinese people want to buy you beer, food and chat with you to make you feel welcome. However, this can also get extremely annoying.
if you wear a 3 piece suit and don't work as teacher, people will not feel brave enough to show you disdain.
Eorthisio:
I saw that as well, they seem to automatically asociate suit with businessman and casual with teacher. OMG they couldn't be further from the actual truth, I know countless teachers wearing suits and the other way around.
You still get foreigner prices wherever you shop. You might not think you do, you might even think you're good at bargaining, but if there's one thing you are 100% guaranteed to get here, it's racist prices.
Jesl:
I will not dispute that, which is why I let my wife do most of the shopping. However, several weeks ago I bought a roasted sweet potato from a street seller who always hangs around my office. The receptionist asked me how much I paid then got pissed off when my amount was lower than what she paid and declared "Im never buying from him again!" It was quite funny, but it is the exception, not the norm.
It's not luck at all => those who complains are lying (with an agenda or not), or creating the bad situation that they perceive as imposed on them, to perpetuate the illusion of being a victim, because, hu... it's convenient.
It's luck => It might depends on various factors such as location and social environment ie. fancy job in fancy companies with highly educated-abroad people vs. grunting around in a sweatshop in a worker's area full of 1st gen. countryside migrant
Which is the most likely ? Which option meshes the best with what you would read from news, what you see and hear ? What mix of both options the reality is made of ? Nothing is real...
I feel like there are lots of situations that could go both ways depending on how you react to them - take a bunch of somewhat annoying but basically harmless guys approaching you at a bbq restaurant. When you're in a friendly, sociable frame of mind you'll probably toast and chat with them for a few minutes, they might buy you a beer or drink some of yours and you'll move on your respective ways with a positive social reaction. However, if you're already in a negative frame of mind and assume people are looking to start something with you, that might become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you give the guys at the bbq place some attitude, that friendly interraction could easily become a confrontation.9 times out of 10, if you smile and are nice to locals, you will basically be treated okay or better. There might be some ignorance displayed and annoying repetitive questions asked but overt hostility without provocation is unlikely (though not unheard of). But oh yes, there are plenty sort of annoying people that you just have to smile at and they will usually go away relatively quickly.
sorrel:
it could also be the case that some of the people you meet can not read body language (or don't want to understand).
Someone can be friendly and polite, but at the same time indicate that they are not inviting more interaction than just basic courtesies: (just exchanging a few words out of courtesy with no wish to engage further).
There are other times when you can be in the humour to join in with locals much more,
The number of times I have been with a couple of friends, and been polite in chatting to locals who want a chat, but they are still there after 15-20 mintues even after being told that we want to enjoy a private meal.
It happens that it is usually a young male who does not get the message that we want to be left alone, so remaining polite is a challenge.
on occasion it has got so creepy that we have had to leave a place to get rid of unwanted hangers-on, and i am not talking about in bars or clubs, but in coffee shops.
There was one place i began avoiding with friends because of one super-weird guy who latched onto the group - just sitting and watching us have coffee.
Unfortunately some local people mistake common politeness for much more.
dongbeiren:
@ sorrel, that's a really good point and I've also noticed that Chinese seem to have a lot of trouble picking up on subtlety, body language and hints. On several occasions I've had to deal with unwanted hangers on and followers who couldn't get my hints that I wanted to be left alone. That being said - those people are not racist or discriminatory, just annoying and socially inept.
sorrel:
it is a fine line between being upfront about not wanting company and appearing on weibo as the 'unfriendly foreigner'.
I am not joking when i remember a few people in their late 20's who wanted to walk with me on my way to meet a couple of other FT's for a meal.
they wanted to stay with me while walking which i had no problem with, but when i said:
"I'm sorry, but I'm meeting a couple of friends for dinner i have to leave you here"
the reply i got was
""can we watch?"
Eorthisio:
Haha sorrel the exact same thing often happens to a Russian female friend of mine who I admit is very attractive both by Western and Chinese standards. Sometimes weirdo will stalk her or stick to her just because she was polite and exchanged a few words with them. They are not dangerous but they tend to mistake politeness with "I am interested". It doesn't help that they have the stereotype of "Western women are easy" and "Russian women are hookers".
RachelDiD:
Eorthisio--it is a bit if a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If you are rude, people will get pissy about that. If you make polite small talk, people will get pushy about it.
I remember taking a bus a few stops to a coffee shop where I liked to study for online classes. Some guy started talking to me, and I politely made small talk. I get to my stop and am about to leave, and he invites himself to the coffee shop with me! As if I had no plans important enough to not sack to talk to some stranger from a bus ride.
I don't think he was a creeper, just painfully awkward...but it still boggles the mind how some people can act as though random laowai going about their lives exist for your ESL practice/observation of waiguode ways/mianzi games.
Some guy actually tried to grab my breasts earlier this week, while commenting to his friend about how open Western women are.
Clearly, I should reconsider my earlier ideas about the situation and wonder how I can reinterpret those events through a sunnier, more upbeat lens.
Mateusz:
Don't be so negative. You probably brought it on yourself by being too negative and not appreciating how lucky you are for being white/Western. Besides, someone said he was given a beer for being white, therefore, what you experienced doesn't matter.
. coineineagh:
it's your fault for having such interesting breasts! have some pity for the poor Chinese guys; it's so difficult to get a woman, even for a quick fondle. Joking. My experience has always been that the myth of westerners being open/honest/friendly, serves as an excuse for CHINESE to let their guard down and open up. Your touchy-feely friend was… ahem… "reaching out" to you.
earthizen:
Unless they are retarded it is extremely unlikely they are that naive.
I agree with Jesl. I do think that your treatment as a foreigner here in China does depend on a lot of things. I wouldn't call myself an optimist but rather an upbeat realist. I'm a happy guy. I think that a smile and a "Ni hao" goes a long way here in China. I don't cry if someone says "Hello laowai/waiguoren". I often respond with a "Ni hao zhonguoren!" or a "Dui. Wo shi waiguoren. Ni hen cong ming!" If someone pointing out that you're a foreigner deeply offends you then perhaps you shouldn't have left home. A thick skin, a smile and a sense of humour are three things that come in handy in China. My question to those that feel so aggrieved at the discrimination that they have been dealt in China is what are you going to do about it? Just whine about it on the internet? Sure you are raising awareness - for all the good that it does. Let me know when you've beaten discrimination in China. We could all wear a pink ribbon on our shirts or have a fun run to beat discrimination. Maybe after that you can return to your home country and do battle to it there.
Jesl:
Yes, I do not understand those people who get pissed off because people call them a foreigner........
Another thing is people always say the police will side with a local in any dispute. Actually if you ask a local they will tell you the police will always side with a foreigner. Case in point, drunk idiot in Wuhan pees on a taxi because it was reserved for someone else. What do the cops do? They insist the taxi driver drive the man home, never mind the customer who made the reservation. That embarrassment to the foreign community should have been arrested.
http://www.imqq.echinacities.com/news/European-Pees-on-Cab-that-Refuses-...
coineineagh:
never underestimate the police's ability to minimize paperwork.
ScotsAlan:
Unless the paper has the greatly missed Chairmans face on it coin :)
Mateusz:
So Chinese will say that the police take the side of "foreigners", and that the Chinese are once again the victims. Imagine that.
So when the police were called on "foreigners" who were smoking in a restaurant, and this was followed by comments on how badly behaved those people are (Chinese would never be so inconsiderate), that's also favoritism towards those privileged "foreigers"?
i understand that JESL is trying to say. life can be pretty decent if you take adversity with a pinch of salt. but JESL needs to understand that our online ranting is a release valve, and most of us are well-adjusted, functioning immigrants in China.
we are singled out by locals, and often the butt of ridicule and gossip, but there is no real harm done. the streets are safe enough for us.
conversely, we also want to talk about the things we see in China, but local Mainlanders are not robust enough to understand constructive criticism and would rather be silent about all those elephants in the room.
this can feel very restrictive and isolating for expats. we basically have 2 choices:
1) persist with locals even though they have made it clear they don't want to talk about anything socially relevant. this will quickly alienate the foreigner even further, and might end badly.
2) comiserate with other expats who are in the same boat. this will improve everyone's state of mind without burdening sensitive locals with dangerous seditious thoughts.
compared to locals gossiping and ridiculing us, ranting online should be even less offensive - usually, only other expats are interested in our comments anyway. a few wumaos and scammers notwithstanding.
compared to sitting at a bar talking smack about Mainlanders in public, online ranting again compares favourably.
in the end, i think all this talk on ECC alleviates more tension than it creates. and it can create some tension too, when expats all over China learn about the BCDs of many other expats all over China. but with greater knowledge comes greater responsibility. i don't accuse locals in my little city of shitting on the streets, because i never saw anything like it here.
Jesl:
Speaking of not being able to talk about certain topics, that is a bit annoying I will admit. I think Guangdong people may be a little different breed than northerns. Cantonese seem to have no trouble criticizing China. In fact there have even been a few times where I have found myself defending China against Chinese people's criticism lol. Several of my friends seem confused as to why I would not want to go back to the USA; constantly reminding me that the food is unsafe, internet restrictions, the air is dirty, everything is expensive etc. When I sit and think about it, its really not logical that I choose to live here, but truth be told, I am happier here and could not see myself returning to the USA anytime soon. Its a mystery to me as well I guess.
If playing ostrich works for you keep going.
nzteacher80:
Better to post your opinion on the internet. Everybody knows that the best way to affect major social change in this world is to talk about it on the internet. Fight the good fight, brother.
To be honest I didn't really notice most of the negative things about China and Chinese until I came on this forum and saw all the negativity. Some posts made me realize the bad things were there all along, but other posts have influenced my way of thinking about China and Chinese in a way I wish they hadn't.
