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Q: Home owners/70 year box leasers, this one's for you...

How liquid is a house? Christ, even in the west they're notoriously illiquid.

 

If you've read any of my earlier opinions about economics and politics without shooting yourself, you'll note that I don't have a particularly high opinion of humans when they come together en masse to trade and try to obtain commodities. Capitalism is bloody ugly, horrendously wasteful and completely stupid when its participants lack class and education. Coming to China has helped me to reinforce these prejudices...

 

The value of homes in New Zealand is overinflated due to the babyboomer generation thinking a load of bricks and mortar on a piece of grass is a kind of retirement fund which they can draw on even though in practice they can't and end up having to sell it and downsize when they can't afford to pay the land rates with their national superannuation and then drop the difference into some finance company which inevitably goes bust about 6 or 7 years later. Most home buyers in NZ still think like this. Obviously when you sell up, you've got to buy a new place, and that new place will be in the same market. Of course, if there are fluctuations in price, you can get in low, sell high and then rent as you wait for the market to crash. In theory of course, though no-one can do this. The one key difference between my own country and China is that you can actually sell up. I'm starting to think that you probably can't do this here.

 

And this is why: in China everyone wants everything new. How many old cars do you see floating around?

 

Houses in China (and by that I mean a percentage of a building rather than actual land) are in abundant supply. If you owned a house here, how likely are you to find a buyer who wants your sloppy seconds when he could have a nice new box which had no previous occupants?

 

I can't understand why you'd want to buy a house here because I can't see how you can sell it again. What do people get out of "owning" one rather than just renting? To me a 70 year lease and a one year tenancy agreement are the same thing except the tenancy agreement can be cancelled with a month's notice and you can easily move into a new abode. If your Chinese built house starts to fall apart... well...

 

Help me understand the mindset behind the great human folly that is the property game.

9 years 2 weeks ago in  Housing - China

 
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I am retired ...steady income to death and 100% carries on after my death for 10 years to my wife. after the 10 years she will get 60%. 

I see absolutely zero reason to buy a home in China. 15-20 year mortgage to own what? A dilapidated old concrete box. 

I rent and can change locales whenever I damned well please. I can get a nice "new" box every couple years if I so desire.

I've said this here before, "if you don't own the land, you don't own nothing".

How long can these boxes survive? 70 years, maybe... lucky grand kids. Imagine the issues in 70 years, or more likely, imagine the issues in 10 years. not just with your long term lease property, but with the whole neighborhood. re-finance, I don't think so.

Even in Canada, my home country, unless you inherit property or you get into the market  young, mid 20's, early 30's there is no hope in hell of  ever owning a decent mortgage free property for any length of time.....  again, lucky kids/grandkids.

Good luck with the down payment in your 20's.

They are not making more property. skyscrapers come and go!!!

BHGAL:

boxes here were +/- 3500sq.m, 5 years ago ...  last year they got to 9000sq.m ...  today those  9000/sq.m place is struggling to sell at  7500. And they are still knocking down old ones and building new, taller ones.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

My thoughts exactly concerning the land. In Wellington, NZ the value of the land itself makes up 70% of the value of the property with 30% being the value of the bricks and mortar.

 

The prices are ridiculous in NZ, but there are opportunities in. My plan is to train as a rural accountant - I'm learning this online and then buy a place in the South Island or possibly the East Coast so long as it's away from the Maori Mongrel Mob gangs.

 

I was considering buying a house in China if the values dropped low enough because I know they'll go low and they will actually go up again, but when I consider how many of them there are, I don't think I'd be able to sell up and move on very easily.

 

Presumably a lot of Chinese use their houses as collateral for loans for the purchase of face commodities like German sports cars which they can't drive properly.

 

I'm a younger fella, but I'm at the point where I've got to make some plans to ensure my life is secure and comfortable when I'm older. I need to balance this with the danger of selling my soul though.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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ironman510:

If you"re too old, yeah buying a house doesn't sound like the right choice for a retired guy here in China. I'd suggest moving to Philippines and buy a house in Makati City, the Condo will be yours forever and my mates got wonderful retirement benefits there..

9 years 2 weeks ago
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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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It has made sense for many years from a Chinese perspective, with limited access to real data and with no experience of what's a real up and down economic cycle looks like.

The place you're from probably has experienced like what, 3, 4 prosperity/depression dynamics, yet I'm sure you can still find morons who will buy the "Stone Can Only Get Higher" bullshit.

China was built from scratch thirty years ago. So far, it has only gotten higher, and from the perspective of people who still feel very insecure about their future, 70 years is better than nothing, and sure as hell better than renting.

 

Also, remember one very important thing: ownership if often the key to get access to a Hukou*, meaning access to local perks like social security, scholarship and also side advantages like better access to visas to whatever country. Those perks are VERY different from city to city and obviously get better by the tier, which also explains the crazy inflation in top cities. Some people might chose to eat noodles everyday knowing they're covered for healthcare and they're kids school.

Which also means that part of what makes going rates lies in the government's hands in a very indirect manner.

 

Not only quality matters.

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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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The way I see it, for myself here, is that I'd buy if the location & price were okay as I feel settled here. The advantage of buying a box (on the 70 year lease) is that I'm not stuck with the vagaries of the rental market where the landlord increase the rent every year & can sell the place from under me (if,as you say, he can find a buyer). Buying somewhere on a 10, 15 or 20 year loan means I'd have a constant outgoing for those years & at the end of it then zero outgoings for however much longer I have left before I die. During that time I'd expect my income to rise until retirement. At that point I'd have a home that is paid for so I could deal better with the drop in income when I get my low pension. 

 

So so I see home ownership as security for my older years. I've never looked at it as a way to make money. 

 

 

laowaigentleman:

Are you worried about being stuck in the province though?

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

No, as Guangdong is home. I'm settled in Guangzhou though would consider buying in Zhongshan or Shunde as prices are cheaper. The weather is generally good here, air quality better than most parts of China, better developed cities & still developing. Easy transport links to get out of here for holidays. 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

I've gotta get down there, man.

 

I've been in China three years and guangdong is far and away the part I feel most at home in.

 

When my girl is done with her study I will run south. I look at jobs in the place all the time. I have an English degree, I'm a native speaker and beside the empty credentials like degrees which it seems virtually anyone can get ahold of these days, I can actually teach well and assist students in improving their speaking and writing.

 

I've been teaching two boys and their writing skills are way above their classmates'. But up here no-one cares. Edutainment. They might try to move me to another division and replace me with a Brazilian or Indian.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

Loads of teaching & tutoring jobs down here, especially if you've got the qualifications & experience.  Even better if a fully qualified teacher as the real international schools pay very well. 

 

If if you ever get to GZ give me a shout. I disagree with a lot of your views but also share some of them so I'd love a decent conversation over a few beers. 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

We'd have a blast. I tend to get characterized as some kind of snobbish elitist - fuck knows why, I'm as vulgar as they come.

 

We would get along like a house on fire.

 

When I think of most of my childhood mates, I'm of the impression I disagree with almost everything they value, but I'd never think of considering them as lesser than me.

 

Even just writing that last paragraph makes me feel like a dick. I affected an online persona to barrage Chinese people with a re-iteration of what it is they can never buy.

 

The values of this country make me angry, so consider that whenever I write something that you might dislike it is because I am trying to fuck off one vulgar Chinese millionaire while I describe a particular social phenomenon. wink

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

It's not your views of vulgar tuhao Chinese millionaires that bother me! I enjoy your rants against vulgar capitalism! You come across at times as rather self-opinionated but also well-read!

 

Interesting when you mention old friends. I'm still in touch with friends I hung around with as a young kid/teenager & even though our lives & views have diverged big style over the decades I always make a point of catching up with them when back in my hometown. Conversations on immigration/emigration can be rather interesting as most of them have never left the town apart from Spanish holidays (eating fish & chips!) so we have rather different views there. At the end of the day there is still that old friendship there & I'd never disparage them in our different lives, just take the piss a bit where we differ & they do the same back. 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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I am retired ...steady income to death and 100% carries on after my death for 10 years to my wife. after the 10 years she will get 60%. 

I see absolutely zero reason to buy a home in China. 15-20 year mortgage to own what? A dilapidated old concrete box. 

I rent and can change locales whenever I damned well please. I can get a nice "new" box every couple years if I so desire.

I've said this here before, "if you don't own the land, you don't own nothing".

How long can these boxes survive? 70 years, maybe... lucky grand kids. Imagine the issues in 70 years, or more likely, imagine the issues in 10 years. not just with your long term lease property, but with the whole neighborhood. re-finance, I don't think so.

Even in Canada, my home country, unless you inherit property or you get into the market  young, mid 20's, early 30's there is no hope in hell of  ever owning a decent mortgage free property for any length of time.....  again, lucky kids/grandkids.

Good luck with the down payment in your 20's.

They are not making more property. skyscrapers come and go!!!

BHGAL:

boxes here were +/- 3500sq.m, 5 years ago ...  last year they got to 9000sq.m ...  today those  9000/sq.m place is struggling to sell at  7500. And they are still knocking down old ones and building new, taller ones.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

My thoughts exactly concerning the land. In Wellington, NZ the value of the land itself makes up 70% of the value of the property with 30% being the value of the bricks and mortar.

 

The prices are ridiculous in NZ, but there are opportunities in. My plan is to train as a rural accountant - I'm learning this online and then buy a place in the South Island or possibly the East Coast so long as it's away from the Maori Mongrel Mob gangs.

 

I was considering buying a house in China if the values dropped low enough because I know they'll go low and they will actually go up again, but when I consider how many of them there are, I don't think I'd be able to sell up and move on very easily.

 

Presumably a lot of Chinese use their houses as collateral for loans for the purchase of face commodities like German sports cars which they can't drive properly.

 

I'm a younger fella, but I'm at the point where I've got to make some plans to ensure my life is secure and comfortable when I'm older. I need to balance this with the danger of selling my soul though.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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ironman510:

If you"re too old, yeah buying a house doesn't sound like the right choice for a retired guy here in China. I'd suggest moving to Philippines and buy a house in Makati City, the Condo will be yours forever and my mates got wonderful retirement benefits there..

9 years 2 weeks ago
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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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The only real benefit that I can see to buying in China is the lack of property taxes - once a home is renovated and designed there are very few carrying costs. Heating oil is heavily subsidized by the government so it is quite cheap. The absence of property taxes encourages investors to sit on vacant properties as there is no financial penalty for doing so. The investors can wait for prices to go up as prices always have over the course of the brief history of China's real estate market. So there is a certain sense of safety in buying a place - you're basically guaranteed to have a place to live (assuming you don't get driven away by developers) without any carrying costs. 

 

On the other hand, my parents live in a US state that heavily relies on property taxes to fund local services. They fork over almost 2% of the value of their property per year in property taxes. Imagine that those people sitting on 2 million kuai apartments all of the suddenly had to pay 30,000 rmb per year in taxes just for owning the apartments. The real estate market would crash as investors would be forced to either rent out or sell their excess units. So for a Chinese family in a stable situation that plans on staying in the same city for 15-20 years it does make sense to buy. Even if the property value stays the same, the family doesn't have to pay rent that whole time and can get their money back (assuming the property is liquid enought o sell). Of course the value is actually likely to rise over such a long time horizon whether or not there is a short term bubble. 

ironman510:

Im from the U.S, Colorado to be exact. Y30,000 $4879 is very cheap and a well laid plan would make it easy to payoff. It's all about planning ahead. 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

I know you justify your views about China's long term future trending upwards based on just that, trends.

 

Having lived in different parts of China and dealt with various people here, I'm of the opinion that this place has peaked. Just as Japan did, but China has gone as far as its political and ethical values will take it.

 

It's clear to me that the next generation will not change. They spend all day in school rote learning and chanting and even if they get terrible scores in the gaokao, are sent to some degree mill to get a commerce diploma. After an average of two years wait for a job after graduating, they get some kind of lowly position where paperwork is dropped on them and they're treated like some kind of errand boy at British public school for the inbred aristocracy that the Chinese inbred aristocracy are so desperate to buy their way into.

 

The cycle perpetuates from there. How likely is it that you'd have heard of all these Chinese tech companies if China let foreign investors and entrepreneurs in without making them partner with Chinese people?

 

They might master creating a ping pong game on a green screen, but if it came to putting together a display for a tech show, the demo pieces probably wouldn't arrive in time because the administrator who only got her job because of guanxi didn't order them because one of her friends posted a picture of herself posing in front of an Italian handbag and she got so excited that she clean forgot to arrange a consignment.

 

China is due for a big correction which will be like karma for me to experience.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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I bought a house here because I didn't want to waste money on the same monthly payment that I would have on rent payments, next it opens the chance to getting a green card (D Visa), My friend got one in Wuhan last month, so the deal is real for married folks. Next I don't care if I sell it or not because if I leave it for my oldest son he'd be 81 years old by the time the Gov would replace it or give him some cash to walk away and I will be dead by that time, or if he's in another country, rent it out.

 

All I can say is I and other guys here in China got the job, the relationship and the money to buy a house here and in my home country, my house will be paid off after a few years and I'll be 38 by than, So what should I do with all that saves? Of course reinvest it..

 

So @laowaigentleman if you're complaining about the 70 year deal it's because your not rich enough to do anything else about it, you don't have a good paying job, Sorry but it's the truth man.

 

@laowaigentleman, I'll give you one more example, lets say a factory worker saved his money for 7 months to buy an iPhone 6 Plus, than a few weeks later he drops it and its broken beyond repair, his life got hit hard because something he couldn't afford everyday in life is gone, he worked so hard for it, he'll be sad for weeks ( I feel you are this man BTW.) But lets say that you're a worker in a good field or a good business with a great career going for you and your family, money isn't an issues, and let's say you survived a crashed car wreck, well this is only an inconvenience because you can buy another one tomorrow or even today. 

So my point is a lot of us are "well off" and tons of rich Chinese guys are laughing at you, bye bye house, just buy a new one, it's that easy, especially if you know how to invest.  

 

Thanks for the good laugh, I needed it.

ironman510:

BTW My heart is in China, as many might be able to tell. Been here 12 years, loved it, for things people don't like here, well I could say the same for people in my own country... So no matter where you find you happiness, be proud of it, if others don't like it, get out! Love Shenzhen baby!

9 years 2 weeks ago
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dongbeiren:

The second half of your post is basically an incoherent brag. If you're in a stable situation with a good career than yea, it might make sense to buy a house here (see my post above) but I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about in the second half of your post except for the fact that you're mocking someone for being less rich than you. 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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ironman510:

That's what I'm doing, I'm basically giving a honest example of what it's  like for those of us that are in 70 year housing gig or those who could be and what it's like for those who can afford it. Don't worry you'll understand the second part once you reach that level. I promise. I was once in those days too, but I put all my money into stocks in the Shanghai index 600556 and 600227 and after that I was at the next level. But it's not enough, gotta keep moving up. 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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ironman510:

Dongbeiren, I really think you can study stock investments, it really works if you do your research and history checks on stocks, and did you know I did all of this by working at Wall Street English.. It's not about the salary people get, it's about how you save and invest.. It's just that a lot of people and young guys today don't know how, like tax forms for example it's a whole different language and so is investment. You gotta study it to make it longterm for the better in this world. 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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icnif77:

'My hearth is in China!' that was all you need to know! I didn't come to China to bash, because my (your) own country is so good! 

Go foking  back home, if its that good! 

Don't bash my 'host' country, 'cause despite you step on the Moon first, you are still resident of  the 'dirtbags' country! IMFokingOpinion .....U-SS-A! U can use chopsticks for this 'rice pudding'!

Not you personally, (please understand me!), but don't bash my 'temp. residence', because your own country isn't much foking different. You kill people there! YOU ARE BAD! USA passport, caucasan person is racist by birth! I tested you/posters of the eChina board! Now, fok off! please! 

Are Chinese racists? Lets have a longer talk about it! Americans simply don't qualify to A my Q!

'BuTT..your Englo isn't proper! We don't understand!'

Call 'J. Leno you are', despite all of your lengthy proper Englo replies.

Americans on that thread should only post 'i pass', not giving me BS proper English lectures about how Chinese are racist. Sorry, but it makes me reply: 'You foking US scum!' Is my statement out of line? see Ferguson, and ridiculous Gov. replies! In EU, Holder would be put in jail for the last statement! I'm not having much against USA. I miss it, in real!

Now, again Iron's problem is because he's got  money, and my 'problem' is 'my English isn't comprehensible'! Fok off with that drive!

We don't know each other! Tell me in my face, and I'll change my world!

I don't see Iron is playing 'I have it' card, same as everybody else out of this Board could understand my written Englo.

NOW, FUCK OFF! Call for help!

I miss my US beaches forever! just for the record, I'm not really 'Putinski'!

I've never been to Russia, despite I visited more than 900 cities around the world!

I just read your reply Iron! DD (due diligence) is all you need for booming/less manipulated stock market in China. Do research on Co. you want to buy. L,R, up, down, and never ever say 'I won't listen to the posters on public thread.' Collect your info from everywhere, see what US traders think about Chinese stock, and....Imagine, you're like a kid who's learning to walk. Will kid fall? Of course, but she/he'll learn too, how to avoid the next fall. All the wind to you Iron!

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

Thanks for your classy reply.

 

I can afford a house here, like you said, $40,000US or whatever is a drop in a bucket, but remember, it's still a bad investment. I've been renting a new place for one year and the concrete around the doors is starting to flake, the fixtures are poorly designed and the place is basically a concrete bunker with no insulation. It isn't worth $40,000.

 

If you're talking about owning multiple properties in China and leaving them to your son, then fine, is there a chance he might lose out in the future if some kind of capital gains tax or property taxes are introduced? It must look like a pretty juicy source of revenue to the CCP.

 

I am here to teach, so obviously I'm not in a good enough paying job. I don't want to open up another argument about how maybe I'm superior to you because I can spell and maybe you're superior to me because you have more printed paper and can get along with thick, vain and shallow people better than me because for some reason the mob tend to side with your ilk. Funny that...

 

It sounds like the property market's working well for you and your answer is welcome despite the abuse you somehow felt the need to hurl at me. You're in the right country, Mr Gecko. Obviously I'll never be as valuable to society as you by living off a percentage of people who actually contribute to society in return for granting them the right to take shelter inside one of your draughty concrete bunkers, so I need to consider which job opportunities are available at which time. The klepto-gerontocrats at the local levels are beginning to pass some pretty daft legislation, so if I'm affected, I've got to up stakes.

 

So for many of us, it's best not to have a stake, especially if the stake isn't even driven into some actual land.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@dongbeiren

 

This should summarize the second part of what he was saying quite nicely:

 

http://my.tv.sohu.com/us/63261971/59049920.shtml

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@icniff

 

You are the real king of wall street.

 

Do you know why? Because you didn't learn English at Wall Street English. Ironman did. That shit school's sure as hell crossed off my list.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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9 years 2 weeks ago
 
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Well, after reading these posts, one can tell new money to old money.

 

Yawn.

icnif77:

Did you go to school to post this?

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

How about the no money?

 

Some people are so money-centric, and in China of all places too!

 

You can't buy brains or class. All you can look forward to being is Britney Spears in a tank top or Donald Trump saying "uge"

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Agreed, I will never buy a home in China even with the means to do so.

 

The residence where I live is 8 years old, it looks like it's 30 years old, the cladding on the outside walls is falling apart, there is a serious amount of rust on the iron parts of the buildings, in some buildings there is always one or two elevators out of service, the pavement outside is slowly sinking, ... the overall place looks much older than it really is, probably due to poor construction standards and low quality materials.

 

Oh and BTW, it's the top of the bucket in the area, other residences look much worse, and the area is one of the nicest in Foshan.

 

Buying a home in China? No way, I doubt any will last for 70 years, also reselling prospects are low considering the over-supply of homes in the country.

 

Homes in China are seen as investments, they are not made to last but to generate quick profits and inflate the national GDP thus the shaky egos of Chinese people.

 

I will rather buy some solid house back home or something nice in a Southeast Asian country, maybe a Pacific island.

laowaigentleman:

Quick question.

 

Investments for whom exactly? Surely not the house buyer?

 

Lots of social services and household registry deals are tied to home ownership. That's basically an expensive way of "selling" those perks rather than an actual investment isn't it?

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

For the developers, they basically sell empty concrete boxes with no need to respect any standard, they can sell crap for the price of gold. Also there are people who manage to sell their apartment if it's well located, you should have no problem to sell anything next to a MTR station no matter how decrepit it is, as for places that are far from the mass transit... don't even think about it.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

It can only happen because Chinese men are bitches and don't fight back.

 

A Chinese friend of mine said that he thought the best way to get rich in China was to buy some demolition equipment and take the governor out to lunch.

 

My girlfriend is worth marrying and her folks are traditional people. Nice though. They seem to respect the hell out of me. God knows why.

 

I am worried about making sure we can provide for them and they, like most Chinese are always thinking houses are a necessity. I've been working for the last half year on winning them over the reason on the housing issue.

 

They own some rather nice land near a river and a lake, but still in the arse end of nowhere so I told my girlfriend we will contribute towards making sure a nice home is developed on it. They genuinely don't expect anything from us and are just following the herd with their subtle claims that I ought to to buy a house. I think I am winning. About time I won something!

 

Long term, I want to go back to NZ or Australia so I know if I buy a place I'm probably not going to be able to sell it when the building its in has something like 5 empty apartments to every 1.

It all comes from the men here being bitches. That's my summation, if they had some balls, China would really be something wink

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

Oh yes, I totally forgot about the "no apartment, no marriage" thingy, my girlfriend and her family never required this from me since they are already well off and own a few places in Guangdong, we plan to get married in 2016, her family knows this and they didn't ask anything from me, no apartment, no car, no foreign passport, nothing.

 

You are totally right, Chinese men are wimps, they have no respect for themselves so how can we expect them to have respect for their homeland. China could become one of the best country in the world, but the culture and their cowardice hold them back.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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ironman510:

I love being a home owner here, you're wrong on a lot of things.. People trying to sound like they know what they're talking about because they can't afford to do anything about it or afford to invest.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

2016! Congratulations.

 

From what you've said of her, you've really found yourself someone great.

 

And she's from a good background too.

 

Good work, my friend. All the best to you. 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

ironman -> Wrong, I can afford it, but I won't buy a home in China.

 

laowaigentleman -> Thanks mate!

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

Double post.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

Triple post

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Well, I was against the idea at first but I bought a place in China in a lower Tier city were there is still room for growth. I just came back from Xian on a business trip and there are rows and rows of empty buildings and buildings under construction... I would NEVER buy there but I talked to a taxi cab driver and he says young people are still moving in from the city.

Why did I buy it?

- To have a place to customize myself, I can't buy the things that I want in someone else's place. If I don't own it, then buying nice stuff to put inside doesn't make sense to me.

- It's in a lower Tier city, and in an excellent location. About 10 minutes to the speed train, airport and large department stores. So I know it will at least maintain its value (or hopefully rise).

- The residential complex is very nice, man made lake, underground parking, not all flat (they made hills and lots of greenery). So it met my standards, however...it's China.

- You need an apartment in the city for your children to be allowed into certain schools and your wife to maintain her Hukou. It also makes it easier for me to get a visa and it builds trust (if the house is under your name too, which mine is) if you want collateral for a business loan or a car... whatever.

- Having a goal. It was a good motivational factor to get out of bed, work harder and just achieve something. A lot of foreigners in China kind of do a lot of nothing...

- You also gain a lot more respect as a foreigner in China (I didn't know this at first). They know your parents didn't buy you the apartment and you got it yourself. That says a lot and buying the apartment says you have a permanent base in China. Many Chinese will start to see you in a drastically different light.

I didn't buy it as an investment. I would like to think life doesn't revolve only around money. We spent about 1mil+ on it but I can make more and I enjoy what I do so its not like I had to grind to get the house and will be a house slave or something.

I can understand why others don't want buy a house here. Most residential areas turn into total junk in about 10 years. But recently some real estate companies know that Chinese are starting to learn about quality and have made drastic changes. Lakes and gardens instead of all concrete, hallways, stairwells are actually being decorated instead of grey concrete, good underground parking. Residents are fighting back against crappy conditions, they make WeChat groups and send each other photos and then go to the company in droves to demand better. It works.

Anyway, I made my choice. And I don't regret it as I really don't like this part of the city I am in now and I love the part of the city I will be moving to and the xiao qu itself.

We will see how that goes when I move in early Summer.

laowaigentleman:

I don't mean to demean you despite the nature of the language I've used to describe the situation here, but I can't help but feel the deal is very shitty.

 

The main reason for me is that I can't sell it, take the money, move it out of the country and buy actual land. Hence my emphasis on the liquidity aspect of it.

 

I didn't expect some kind of universal response to such a subject, but I know most of the posters here are male, itinerant teachers who might have met someone worth settling down with here.

 

Don't take it as an insult if from my perspective your choice seems odd, because the biggest priority to me if I buy a house is being able to liquidate and move the capital offshore. I mean, come on, I live in China! Don't you feel so much better knowing you can take it all away with you and not leave the seatbelt covers behind for a bunch of pygmys to steal and use as wedding and baptism gifts?

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Robk:

I don't really plan on selling it. It could rent very easily due to the location, but selling is probably very unlikely...

 

The plan is to live in it for another 5 years or so, get a place in Canada and move over there if we start a family and the child is ready for elementary school. The apartment would be used for visits and and storage if not rented.

 

I am planning on another place in Coron, Philippines. I have been on the developer for years to build condos so foreigners can have 100% ownership. They can't own land there unless it is under a company/or Filipino wife's name( then you can build a villa). So, he finally caved in due to demand and will start to build them in 2016.

 

I mention that because I feel it is a much better financial investment. Why? Cause I can rent it out easily during the tourist seasons, I can easily sell it and Filipino quality is overall better. This is the website if anyone is interested:

 

www.fernvalecoron.com (one of the best pools I have seen or swam in)

 

I would NOT even consider buying a place in China if I didn't have a Chinese wife. And it took quite a few years of living in China to even entertain the idea. I definitely know ALL of the pros and cons but if I am going to continue living in China comfortably for now, I need to feel like someplace is China is truly my own space.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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When my Chinese family was bent on getting a mortgage to buy a house for 330k, I was terrified about exactly this. The more I knew about China's preference for 'shiny new' and ridiculous housing bubble, the worse my fears became. I was slowly coming to accept I'd be stuck here.

The only redeeming quality, is that the house is relatively nice, in a quiet side street of the central market street, in a wealthy town. Slap bang in the middle of 3 major tourist attractions: The Panda reservation in Ya'An, the Leshan Buddha, and Mt. Emei. Mt. Wawu is another holy buddhist mountain even closer by.

Then my wife's import business took off, and she decided it's time to go abroad to cut out the middle men. For a long time, we didn't want to sell the house valued at about 500k. We put it up for 490, and refused to accept any offer not beginning with a 4.

But time passed, all viewers started their offers with a very low 3, and I told my wife to be realistic about getting all the value. A lot of it is an illusion anyway. We accepted an offer of a high 3 paid in cash, furniture included. So I'm out of the cauldron. My goose is no longer cooked.

And soon I'll be out of the country! Off to rebuild a life in the west, with some decent profits for a 3-year ride on China's housing bubble. All loans are paid off, and we can focus entirely on immigration now.

laowaigentleman:

Man, seriously, you're lucky as hell!

 

I don't think we call all hope to replicate your luck though can we?

 

I'm thinking solely of the house as a commodity? Can you sell it or will people take the new place next door to you which no-one could afford?

 

I'm getting ready to dig in my heels and make sure I'm not pushed into buying some box. Obviously you didn't want to hold such a thing in perpetuity, huh?

 

I've a feeling I'd be doomed if I bought one.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Robk:

That's awesome and pretty much how I plan to proceed in a few years IF we decide to sell. There is a positive point to selling your home... many Chinese don't want to self decorate these days... they find it WAY TOO ma fan, especially for people that buy an apartment in a city but live in a village. Also, a lot of construction companies are huge crooks and do a crappy job...

 

So if your home is already nicely decorated in an excellent location close to transport hubs, tourist destinations and good schools... you got a good chance to sell... which it seems you did.

 

ANOTHER bonus, is if a foreigner sells it a Chinese will trust the sale further... why?

 

Because we take better care of things than Chinese, we are more trustworthy and the reason makes better sense to a Chinese person in terms of sale. "We are selling because we are moving to Germany." A Chinese person can better handle that reason without question.

 

Good to hear of your experience and good luck to you finding your way in Germany.

 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

Some farmers have tremendous savings and little sense what to spend it on. As RobK mentioned, they need a house in the town to be eligible for certain "good schools" (that's rich - don't get me started). Also, the issue of formaldehyde usage in furniture paint to cut costs is a serious one. So, some people see the value of buying a pre-painted house and slightly older furniture, for reduced health effects. Our furniture really dressed up the place. We had buyers for the furniture, but the house buyers insisted on getting most of it.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Robk:

@coin - How much did you spend on the furniture?

 

That's the next step after the current one we are almost done with... picking out tiles, doors, counters, etc.

 

My wife is handling it because she enjoys it and it just drives me mad. But the furniture and electronics part... I am going to be all over that.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

i think it was about 40-50k for new furniture. we had a buyer for 25k, so that's basically money spent on selling the place.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Did anyone ever hear the phrase: People complain about things that they can't have or afford? So it's normal human nature to find the bad in something or someone because you can't get it, have it, or afford it. So to rest your mind you look for something negative about it.

 

So find all the reasons you can for not owning a home or leasing a home in China for 70 years, I'd bet if you could afford it you'd see if with a positive view, you'd be proud and investing your money into something better than rent. A wise man once said: "rent is a 90% waste of life".

 

Again, if your here just to work and leave someday, than that's different, if you're like me and a hand full of other guys here in China, than you know why you need a home, you know the benefits it gives you for legal stuff and for your Chinese family. Owning a home here is apart of the business and the long-term requirement to make it in China the correct way. Again that's if you plan to stay. You will get older, you won't be able to work as much as you'd like, a lot of guys won't get retirement benefits out here, so why risk your old age with paying worthless rent? You're in China for the long run because you love it here and your family. 

 

Why pay for rent guys? China is your home now, just like me. Buy your home and invest..I know a public school teacher here, he made 11,000 + part-time Y7000, he saved what he could for 5 years and got himself a wonderful apartment in Zhuhai.. If an ESL teacher can work hard and do this for his family, than why can't you?

 

Don't give me any of your excuses guys. Because you can't, it's impossible to argue that a lifer in China is wasting money for paying rent. How could you do that to your kids? Most of you guys could afford a 10 year housing loan.. After that your salary is free to invest into retirement, education for your kids and while you can walkout on any given day and buy what you want because you're not paying rent to an owner.

laowaigentleman:

It all depends on people BELIEVING houses are worth so much though doesn't it?

 

In the past we all believed in druids and the divine right of kings. I know the idea of property being so important seems to make a lot of sense on the face of it, certainly more so than the first two examples I offered, but if you really analyze it, it has so many things it's dependent on.

 

The main one is that someone will be stupid enough to keep offering more money for the same thing even as things get tougher.

 

Many people keep offering, but they have to stop only when they have to. These "have to" times are healthy.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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jetfire9000:

Any neighbors raising chickens?

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Robk:

Yeah, I agree. It isn't about the monetary benefits to me. I don't hope to gain anything from selling. I just want a proper place to hang my hat and customize the condo the way I want it done.

 

Many Chinese copy each other with boring interiors. I am going for the mini-bar, the hot tub, a large aquarium and crazy entertainment center... that's why I can't rent. I can't do this kind of thing in a rented place.

 

Chinese put low expectations on foreigners from the moment you land here. They figure you can't speak Chinese. For ESL teachers (and I was one), they figure you don't have any other skills. They are impressed when you can do simple things like using chopsticks, driving a car or riding a motorcycle in China.

 

For each little thing you accomplish, you gain respect. If you plan on staying in China long-term... it is definitely worth it.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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ironman510:

@laowaigentleman, it has nothing about believing. It's about setting up the best possible security in China for your family and paying rent as a life in China is not the correct thing to do.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Let me guess.  You're a friend of mike's, right?  I recognize the same pompous attitude.  New money tends to do that to a person so I won't blame you for that, but I will call you out for being plain wrong.  Buying a house anywhere is a subjective choice.  Whether it is wise or not depends on a family's situation.  If you do so for so-called security, then you're kidding yourself.  Security in this world, and especially as a foreigner in China, is a fallacy.  If ignorance gives you peace of mind, then more power to you but there is more than one way to skin a cat. I live in a luxury development on a top floor overlooking beautiful scenery and was able to design my own interior.  I don't own it, but I can live here for as long as I want.  If conditions change in China for foreigners or when I want a change in locale, I simply move out.  It didn't cost me an arm and a leg and as long as I stay at least 4 years, it's a relative bargain.  You seem flush from your newfound financial status, but even if you have the money, buying isn't always the best deal.  Maybe once you get used to having money, you will see the difference.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Shifu

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i gonna buy a house in germany and rent it out till it is paid off thats litterally in 5 years.

 

not gonna buy an apartment in china, too scared that it will fall apart after 10 years.

 

BTW the deal is that i don't waste anything for rent, as my company pays that but I guess they wouldn't pay my mortgage LOL

laowaigentleman:

You're addressing precisely my concerns about buying, those two things being quality and liquidity.

 

They are the most important to me, so buying isn't for me.

 

Whereabouts in Germany are you from? My second cousin who my father's family is very close to married a German lady and I learned the language in school I kept up my reading although my spoken German probably sounds ridiculous. My teacher was a bavarian guy too, so he had a strong southern accent. I find myself speaking like this too and it sounds a bit affected. Perhaps I think about it too much...

 

Don't buy land in a country without democracy and rule of law. Simple, huh?

 

wink

9 years 2 weeks ago
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dom87:

I am from west germany, somewhat around dortmund

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Scandinavian:

if you are not paying off a mortgage then you are trowing away money every month, sure the money is out of your employers pocket, but had your bought in China and gotten a housing allowance to cover the mortgage then you'd be a lot better off. (here not thinking about you being stuck with an unsellable craphole) 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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dom87:

you are only throwing money away if you expect you will

a) live there forever

b) the house stands forever the rest of your live

 

for a) I can already say that I won't. Since I can't package my house and take it somewhere else, it would be a huge waste. Rent it out to chinese morons? yeah guess what, you will find a ruin afterwards.

It is different in china, if I change my job it might take me 1000-5000 km somewhere else. It is very very unlikely to find another job near my home let alone in the same city. You see the issue here - probably would consider it if I thought I will stay in this job forever

 

for b), well don't fool yourself...

9 years 1 week ago
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When i finally decided to stay here for more than five years, I thought long and hard about buying a house.  Pros:  Stability.  Cons: Poor Quality, overpriced, poor quality, 70 year lease, poor quality.  I chose not to pay such a high price for "stability".  Stability and security are really just illusions anyway. My solution?  A long term rental lease.  I imagine these are getting easier and easier to work out.   I negotiated a 5 year lease in a premier location by a river and mountains.  This is as much security as I need and when I'm done, I can walk away from the place.  Most new houses in China have about a 5 year life before it starts to crumble anyways.  I will never buy a house here because I could never bring myself to accept such shoddy workmanship for the cash outlay.  It's the principle, I guess.  I would always feel like I was cheated.

laowaigentleman:

That's why I can't understand why Chinese people buy them either,

Do you think they have an exit strategy?

 

I doubt they do.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

I had a conversation with a young student about this topic.  Her reply (as are most replies I hear on any such topic)  was "mei ban fa".  Bottom line is the typical Chinese person feels they have no choice in the matter.  This is China, we must buy a house.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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dom87:

i think it is just pressure... no house no wife, so what would you do? :D

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Scandinavian:

"stabillity" might be an illusion, but the instabillity of renting in China is a daily concern. In our hood, all apartments that are for rent are apartments who are bought by someone who has no clear plan for it. E.g. the first place we rented, for an amazing 3,5 years, was destined to be given to the landlady's son when he turned 18, then, as we were kicked out, well before the kid turned even teen, the apartment was sold to the landladys sister. At very short warning. The sister didn't actually need the place to live, but had it renovated (was in pristine condition) and kept it empty for half a year as she jacked up the rent to be well above the area average. 

The simplemindedness of the Chinese landlord makes renting such a horrible experience. Even though buying might be a bad idea, it does buy some stabillity. 

 

I do agree with you though. 

9 years 2 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

@Scandy - your point is well taken. Chinese business people are clearly insane and clueless.  But the market is rapidly changing into the advantage for the renter.  With houses devaluating, rents prices will decrease and landlords will be more acceptable to long term leases with locked in rates.  But of course, this is China and rational business sense has no place here.

9 years 2 weeks ago
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Shifu

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Just to follow-up on what I'm reading:

 

I hardly can conceive how buying a place gives anyone any sense of stability, at least in the way I see things. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but most residences I've lived in have been nice for 3 or 4 years on average before being swarmed and destroyed, not mentioning the usual shitty standards wear.

 

You are completely at the mercy of how the property management intends to do things. And usually you just have to compare the base facilities with their current exploitation status.

My last residence (and actually all the ones before it): half the lights running at night, AC installed in common spaces never used ("it's broken can't fix it"), nice leisure space converted to garbage storage, lazy gardening helped by swarms of unattended kids, lots of stuff never replaced, or replaced by cheap material, elevator maintenance contracted to a shitty local company in lieu of Hitachi... the list goes on, without anyone giving a shit. And I just imagine how perfect the residence probably was when the developer (a HK franchise) was still trying to sell his boxes at max price.

Point is: you have a 70 years guarantee on your private space, and zero guarantee on its surroundings including for safety matters. And we didn't even scratch the district situation, like what do you do when a shit-puking factory or a construction site invades your landscape, etc...

 

So from the standpoint of a foreignlander who isn't even entitled to any of the local social perks, what is the point (yeah, permanent residency but I don't give a damn about it personnaly). I'd much rather be mobile in this unstable place.

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