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Q: How many Chinese people do you know?
I mean actually know, are friends with, have meaningful conversations with, have fun with and have experienced life with. I'm dating a Chinese guy and I have a group of close Chinese friends, some of whom I have lived with over the past three years. I sent one of them a link to an article on this website to see what they think and they came on the forum to check it out and were so astonished at what people were saying on here. I genuinely felt really bad that I exposed them to the overt hatred that so many users here have for Chinese people.
So do any of you have Chinese people you care about? Would you say the things that you say on here about them, or to them? Have you thought about how it would make them feel if they heard their people being spoken about like that?
There is only one person in China I could call a "true friend", he is working as a hairdresser, a normal young Chinese, not some boss or manager, we often go out together, he is helping me to learn Cantonese as I already speak nearly fluent Mandarin, we have interests in common such as live music or electronics' hardware.
Other than that I have been the closest to girls because well... I am a guy, but overall people here are arses and tend to see you as a mean for personal benefits.
Hatred of Chinese people, or severe rejection of Chinese society ? It's very different...
Chinese people I know : my wife, her friends & colleagues, the in-laws, the work colleagues I interact with, one friend (who's abroad now), friends I meet when I was a student. A constellation of people with whom I interacted to various degrees.
My wife reads this forum, and it does not give her a great feeling, that's for sure. She thinks it fuels my ...difficult relationship with society with Chinese characteristics.... She thinks that on this forum, we are just encouraging each other to spit venom. She's aware that things are not all rosy here, but where I see a poor education, sloppy standard, mild xenophobia, slave mentality and dysfunctional society bordering on psychopathy, she sees something different. I can't help thinking that I can piece together things she doesn't, like many people here, because she's protecting herself. I respect her intelligence and her freedom, so I can't force my vision on her. So there's that gap in our vision, hanging like the proverbial elephant in the room.
RiriRiri:
Very interesting.
Same here, I feel no hate for any group of people on the planet, Chinese are no exception. But I won't close my eyes on the objectively dysfunctional society I see everyday and I will certainly not let it get to me, nor will I accept any part of it. And I will not miss a chance to call bullshit on it every time I get a chance.
We are merely stating facts and observations here. Sometimes harshly, we're humans, we need to chill. But I rarely see true hate. True hate doesn't look like that, it is irrational and assertive.
Though I wonder if I would be thinking the same thing should I not have access to the Internet. Good question.
gouxiong:
DrMonkey, I find your comment very interesting and to certain level also surprising. Surprising because to the big extent I share your wife point of view even though I am not Chinese. No, I do not think that people here just encourage each other to 'hate' China or Chinese - I think that is your wife misunderstanding. But I do think that we, Westerners, are frequently lacking the understadning of the Chinese people behaviour reasoning. I have many Chinese friends, some of hem very good one, and few Chinese people I really do care about. Sometimes I am also full of disbilief why certain peopel behaviour, or the whay how they handle the problem, can be so 'unbeliavable'. But sometimes, when discussing such topic in quiet moment, I am absolutelly astonished by my friends explanation which, if you accept the original axioms, absolutelly makes sense. I think it's partly on the account of the cultural difference. There was some other article here about the ethic where somebody mentioned something in the sense that ethic is one and not following it will bring negative consequences. Actually I disagree with it. 'Traditional' European countries have the ethics developped from ancient Greek - Roman civilization with subsequent influence of Jewish/Christian religions (latelly affected by last two centuries happenings). But already Christian and Greek or Roman ethic differs in certain cases dramatically. When you then try to apply this ethic on the civilization which developped totally differently and where the people are sharing (or are forced to share) totally different values then it can quite easily result in a lot misunderstandings. China and Chinese are of course not perfect (exactly in the same way as no other country or nation is) and there are a lot of real problems here. But I still believe that we, Westerners, should try to understand Chinese people behaviour mtoivations better. The benefit is mainly for us. And what concerns of hatred on the forum so there are many Chinese forums about 'trash' - the meaning of thrash are foreigners in China :). But so far my experience is that it's quite small Chinese population percentage who represents this standpoint. And using this analogy there certainly are foreigners that hate China and Chinese, but they are absolute minority - majority of people are here because they want to and usually also like it.
DrMonkey:
@gouxiong So you too, you see things you can't believe (we can make a long list of those, it's mentioned here ad nauseam) , and you try to somehow make sense of it. So far, what input I got from the Chinese people I know is, roughly
- Don't look at it, don't care so much about it
- You think too much about it
- *feelings being hurt*
- It's because <generic explanation like population size>, and when asking the relation of cause & effect, I got the trademark blank look.
And it never goes farther, and all attempt to connect various separated phenomenon with some analysis is met with hostility or just boredom. Where I did something wrong ? Does trying to understand why things are the way they are, regardless of personal feelings, is against Chinese values ? If respecting Chinese values is to shun yourself from what you see and avoiding any explanation (to avoid face loss for others) ... am I the obtuse person ? I have the deep impression that a genuine effort of comprehension is putting yourself against people's feelings. For me, it's a dillema, I don't like making people unhappy, but I refuse to blind myself either.
xinyuren:
@gouxing - I too believe it's necessary to try and understand why they do the things we find so puzzling. But, like DrMonkey, I too often find that the answers are not even explainable by the Chinese themselves. Chinese logic is a circular spiral into oblivion. Please give us some real examples. Although I find it very helpful to try and understand how Chinese reason and how their history brought them to this point, I have also come to the conclusion that much of their inexplicable behavior has no rhyme or reason. It just is. But they are political victims and should not be the target of hate.
You want hatred of Chinese People?
Lu Xun refused the Noble Prize in Literature on the grounds that the Chinese weren't ready for it...
humbug:
What's your point? and does this justify being rude and generalising Chinese people?
DrMonkey:
@rasklnik Would you mind citing your source regarding Lu Xun's motivations ? I spend a few minutes reading about this. The way I understood it : Lu Xun was worried that a Nobel Prize might be used for propaganda purpose by a regime he despised (it was the KMT back then), he was very deceived by what came after 1911 revolution.
rasklnik:
to Dr. Monkey...I feel that Lu Xun felt that if he accepted the Nobel Prize People would start saying, "Ah look what we have achieved! China is great!" Lu Xun advocated a healthy relationship between China and the West " All to often foreigners have been either barbarians or gods" he understood that foreigners are people too, often great people, therefore he refused to study TCM but studied medicine in JAPAN! Yeah!
-He was a critic of the KMT which did not become as terribly abusive in his lifetime as it would become in the 30's...
-Honestly, the issue I have it is mainly foreigners who can have cnversations about Republican China, or a Taiwanese, HK and so on. Those who live in the mainland resist thought far too much...
All my friends in China are Chinese, and I have quite a few, although only a few I am very close with. I'm not against having foreign friends, but I don't seek them out seeing as most are transient and I plan on staying in China long term.
Just my chinese girlfriend, and one friend sometimes we gather to have dinner etc. I think most of chinese just want to hang out with you because some benefit.
I have a few close Chinese friends and many Chinese acquaintances.
my experience is that their definition of friendship is different from that of a foreigner: hence the often scary stalkerish people who meet me and demand to be my friend immediately.
They are aware of what goes on online - sure there are many Chinese websites that we would not visit that as just as anti-foreigner - as my friends tell me.
it is nonsensical for anyone to have hurt feelings about what total strangers say on a forum they don't read, or if they do read them, not engage with other posters to try and communicate on issues.
Sure there have even been chinese people who will make offensive, racist and sexist comments to my face.
Should I take these comments quietly "because I am a guest" in the country?
Eorthisio:
According to Chinese beliefs you should even "offer yourself" to a local man, not because he is caring and a good man no no, but in order to thank them for welcoming you in their country, and because "foreign girls are easy". On the other hand they will spit their hate on any Chinese woman who willingly decides to date a foreign man.
Another moronic post "if you critique the behaviors of Chinese people or the problems in 'their' country, you hate China and all Chinese people.'
I talk to my friends about the shit I see here more than I do on this forum. Hell they are the fucking victims, they talk to me about the garbage they have to deal with (forced abortions, cheating employers, teachers that make them go to hotel restaurants to drink, gutter oil, begging me to bring back baby milk when I go to the states). Hell in class I don't talk about politics but many students often want to use my class to vent about something. Last week some students brought up the protests in HK and their anger about their own government and their support for the protesters.
I'm gonna ask you, do you have any real friends? Real friends feel comfortable around you to talk about anything.
hunana:
Yes, I would consider them real friends and we discuss issues that they have and that I have with China as a whole, but I do it in a respectful way. I only see a huge lack of respect on this forum.
Englteachted:
The next time someone tells me they left their job because they didn't pay them for 3 or 4 months and there is absolutely nothing they could do about because of Chinese society I will be very respectful of Chinese society.
You know, the people in China I know would freak out, roil to the ground and start crying if I told them "I think the presidents farts smell bad", the average Chinese ability to handle criticism of their country is very poor. Living in a place with no self criticism, a one sided media, means people don't know the concept of healthy debate.
That doesn't mean critique is not done without love. I pretty much constantly bitch about how people drive in China (not just on this site) Why? To make people aware that what they are doing is dangerous. I never tell people they are idiots for not being better drivers (although they are for not wearing seatbelts)
I have quite a few Chinese friends - Old girlfriends who are still in contact, my wife's student's parents, and my wife as my closest friend. She was actually already disconnected from Chinese "culture" before we met. A broken home and a stupid boyfriend did the damage before I came into her life. I often tell her of of the topics raised by foreigners on this site. She laughs and is mostly in agreement. Most of my other friends are uncomfortable talking about controversial topics, but recently I have acquired a good friend from a surprising place. A high school.
There is a middle school/high school near my house and a student there found me on Wechat by searching nearby people. We have since developed regular chatting sessions when she isn't studying. Even though she is just a 17 year old girl, I pull no punches when discussing controversial topics. When she asks my opinions about China, I give them to her undiluted. At first, she is shocked by my answers and I expect her to get angry or withdraw from the conversation. But after some thought, she actually acknowledges the logic and continues probing. It is an unlikely bond between a teenage girl and a man who could easily be her father but she has given me great insight on the thinking of Chinese youth, and in her words, our chats have brought her "great joy". It has caused her to think about many things.
So to answer your question: If I care about someone, they will know what I am thinking. I will not hold back. If they care about me, they will accept that. Whether they be Chinese or otherwise.
Englteachted:
No No No! You are supposed to treat Chinese people like 5 year olds that still believe in Santa. Because that is not racist.
Oh boo hoo cry me a river. Today I went out for lunch some people yelled out hey black foreigner. Later on kids getting out for lunch tried to throw something at me, for the umphteenth time. Adults and parents around them laughed because this is how they are taught to regard foreigners.
In china they believe they can treat others in any disrespectful way but others should never point this out.
If I call the ass holes who mistreat me dogs and retards am I attacking all chinese?
Tell your friends and yourself that chinese are people too. They are not exempt from criticism especially when others treat them with respect and they treat everyone else like crap
I know loads of Chinese people, I get on really well with them. In fact I think the Chinese are the nicest, most pleasant people i've ever wanted to punch in the face.
You can't take what you read on here so seriously.
hunana:
Ah, the failsafe response of an internet troll: 'don't take things so seriously', 'it's not my fault that you chose to get offended at what I said'.
mArtiAn:
Hey, I agree with you, I think people say a lot of shitty things on here. I gave you the thumbs up. But everyone's entitled to their opinion. Mine is to not take it so seriously. Also I don't actually believe in trolls. I believe in arseholes, but then we've all got one of them.
I only have one Chinese friend who he's much better than any foreigner or Chinese person I ever know.Actually I met foreigners who are cheaters and make use of others.I classify those people as ( the lowest of the lowest) less than animals.So no matter if you are Chineseor where you come from ,you can't make use of me or others.
I wonder about this myself. The Chinese I know are fairly bland and uninteresting, inept, biased, petty, but not otherwise offensive. Since I live in a tier IV, I just assume that the worst of the cruelty and filthiness happens in bigger cities. But I can confirm how irritating the slack-jawed gawking is.
I'm usually polite to people who say more than 2 words to me, and will only discuss politics with people who have expressly asked my opinion. Discussing socially relevant topics doesn't make me friends in China, though Chinese seem to have an indoctrinated aversion to it. one or two people will acknowledge that I'm not as inexperienced with Chinese culture as they assumed.
Does ECC make me more cynical? No. China made me cynical. If there were no problems, my opinions would be more moderate.
