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Q: How risky is it helping old people who fall?
I ask because I was in the situation quite recently where I saw an old man fall. This has been bothering me since it happened.
I think he tripped on uneven sidewalk bricks or something and he went down pretty hard. Didn't manage to get his hands up or anything to protect himself. The poor old guy seemed to be hurting and was probably in minor shock from it but didn't seem to be seriously hurt. Nothing broken. He was with two older women at least who were trying to help him up but having trouble with it. They eventually got him up and they all walked away so I guess no major harm was done.
I'm ashamed to say I did nothing to help. I wanted to but have been told too many times, and seen too many news articles about how the elderly (well, anyone really but especially the elderly) will use any chance to extort people who try to help them. It wasn't just me, I watched about five people walk past and every one of them averted their eyes, pretended not to see and walked faster.
I asked Chinese people I work with and the consensus is you should keep walking. The chances are good I would end up being the victim. I think I did a financially prudent thing but not necessarily the right thing.
So my question is, what are the chances I'd be blamed and have to pay compensation and inflated medical expenses for something I didn't do? Does anyone have any idea how common this actually is?
I know Chinese will always say it's a near certainty but then the same people will tell you all dogs will bite you, Chinese bodies are different and a glass of cold water can be near lethal so I really don't know how much I can trust this advice.
And another sort of related question... does anyone else hate and resent the way living in this 'culture' can put you in the situation where you do (or don't do ) things you'd never do anywhere else and hate yourself for it?
I was trained in First Aid at home in a previous job, and taught how to deal with all sorts of emergency situations.
One thing that was made clear to us was that we were never to give First Aid in a situation that we thought could put us in danger of any sort. this was to protect yourself from possible harm.
My first instinct is to rush over and assess what aid i can give - and i have assisted a couple of times in minor situations on the street.
However in China, sorry to say, my first instinct is to see if there is someone with me who can record the situation so there is evidence that i was not involved in the accident.
For some reason there are Chinese people who think scamming foreign women is easy to do.
In fact once with a Chinese friend when witnessing an accident, i was steered away by my friend as quickly as she could, and when I protested, saying we should help, i was told there was nothing anyone could do.
I have to laugh at the military training at the start of every academic year that does not include something as basic and practical as First Aid, but then i suppose marching and singing songs is more important.
Sinobear:
In the Canadian military, you are trained to 1. announce to the victim (responsive or not) that you are a first-aider, 2. You are supposed to ask whether the victim requires first-aid or not, 3. If unconscious, then first-aid is a given necessity.
I would assume in China that you: 1. Announce that you want to help, but you are poor but still have to record the events on your i-Phone 6s. 2. You are supposed to analyze the English level of the "victim" and ask whether he/she prefers your analysis in terms of IELTS/TOEFL/TOEIC or CET. If CET, let them suffer.
3. If unconscious, say aloud that you saw someone of ethnic origin push them down and that you are attempting to revive the victim so that they may live another day to proclaim the greatness of the CCP and to give credence to the need to suppress and wipe-out the offending ethnic minority (whether they be Brits, Aussies, Kiwis or 'Mericans).
4. Declare your love of Mother China and list all of the territories, islands, and sand pebbles on the beaches of the world that historically belong to China. Massage the heart of the victim whilst simultaneously stroking the hearts of the Motherland.
5. Order someone to call 110 and Uber simultaneously. Have the victim put into the Uber car and sent to Shanghai (unless you're in Shanghai, in which case, send them to Guangzhou) whilst you take the ambulance to the nearest hospital complaining of a heart attack (stress), carpal tunnel syndrome (CPR), 'hurt feelings' (CCP Syndrome) or other ailments that cannot be medically proven but can be financially beneficial.
sorrel:
@Sino,
Yes, all that you were taught during your First Aid training applies to what I was taught.
In addition, i was taught that if someone refuses first aid, despite asking them numerous times when it is clear they need it, you can not give first aid. To do so would constitute assault.
The law surrounding First Aid is very clearly defined.
In China, and even online here on ECC, i have seen a lot of 'butt hurt'
I don't think first aid is sufficient for that 
Stiggs:
I haven't been trained in first aid, other than some fairly basic stuff,back in high school I think it was, so I don't consider myself to be very helpful in these situations and would generally try to stay out of them.
This was a matter of helping a guy stand up and maybe hail a taxi or or something for him.
My first thought though was how can this blow up in my face? Maybe I've been here too long but I just don't have a lot of faith in people here. I dunno, maybe I'm being overly cynical.
I'll go short: 'I would help, doesn't matter where I am!'
I'm not thinking, what are Chinese saying, and who could sue me.
I had matter not related to this, except for 'stupid' part, .... part-time mill wants me to do un-paid demo classes. They go: ''It's only 15'....'', despite they demand I'm there before 10am, have 15' class half an hour later, and leave place after 11am. Repeat at 4pm. Doesn't matter what are they thinking, I told them I won't argue about payments, but I'll stay in my bed instead.
I think there's only a tiny minority who would try to pull that falling over stunt. As in the west the media have proven very effective in blowing an otherwise minor concern way out of proportion. I would absolutely help someone I saw fall in the street. But if they tried to scam me I'd knock them on their arse and run.
I was trained in First Aid at home in a previous job, and taught how to deal with all sorts of emergency situations.
One thing that was made clear to us was that we were never to give First Aid in a situation that we thought could put us in danger of any sort. this was to protect yourself from possible harm.
My first instinct is to rush over and assess what aid i can give - and i have assisted a couple of times in minor situations on the street.
However in China, sorry to say, my first instinct is to see if there is someone with me who can record the situation so there is evidence that i was not involved in the accident.
For some reason there are Chinese people who think scamming foreign women is easy to do.
In fact once with a Chinese friend when witnessing an accident, i was steered away by my friend as quickly as she could, and when I protested, saying we should help, i was told there was nothing anyone could do.
I have to laugh at the military training at the start of every academic year that does not include something as basic and practical as First Aid, but then i suppose marching and singing songs is more important.
Sinobear:
In the Canadian military, you are trained to 1. announce to the victim (responsive or not) that you are a first-aider, 2. You are supposed to ask whether the victim requires first-aid or not, 3. If unconscious, then first-aid is a given necessity.
I would assume in China that you: 1. Announce that you want to help, but you are poor but still have to record the events on your i-Phone 6s. 2. You are supposed to analyze the English level of the "victim" and ask whether he/she prefers your analysis in terms of IELTS/TOEFL/TOEIC or CET. If CET, let them suffer.
3. If unconscious, say aloud that you saw someone of ethnic origin push them down and that you are attempting to revive the victim so that they may live another day to proclaim the greatness of the CCP and to give credence to the need to suppress and wipe-out the offending ethnic minority (whether they be Brits, Aussies, Kiwis or 'Mericans).
4. Declare your love of Mother China and list all of the territories, islands, and sand pebbles on the beaches of the world that historically belong to China. Massage the heart of the victim whilst simultaneously stroking the hearts of the Motherland.
5. Order someone to call 110 and Uber simultaneously. Have the victim put into the Uber car and sent to Shanghai (unless you're in Shanghai, in which case, send them to Guangzhou) whilst you take the ambulance to the nearest hospital complaining of a heart attack (stress), carpal tunnel syndrome (CPR), 'hurt feelings' (CCP Syndrome) or other ailments that cannot be medically proven but can be financially beneficial.
sorrel:
@Sino,
Yes, all that you were taught during your First Aid training applies to what I was taught.
In addition, i was taught that if someone refuses first aid, despite asking them numerous times when it is clear they need it, you can not give first aid. To do so would constitute assault.
The law surrounding First Aid is very clearly defined.
In China, and even online here on ECC, i have seen a lot of 'butt hurt'
I don't think first aid is sufficient for that
Stiggs:
I haven't been trained in first aid, other than some fairly basic stuff,back in high school I think it was, so I don't consider myself to be very helpful in these situations and would generally try to stay out of them.
This was a matter of helping a guy stand up and maybe hail a taxi or or something for him.
My first thought though was how can this blow up in my face? Maybe I've been here too long but I just don't have a lot of faith in people here. I dunno, maybe I'm being overly cynical.
sadly the military training is not worth much at all, all those dead passenger customer in kunming last year, not one tried to use their luggage to block the sword or knife attacks, i dont think self defense is even in the chinese dictionary.
Sinobear:
Or, were the "attackers" trained military themselves? Fast, selective, and the only evidence of "terrorism" came from the CCP itself.
No pronouncement of intent, no proclamation of 'down with this' or 'up with that'. Nothing.
The offenders were either killed outright (convenient) or captured (no open trials). The rest "disappeared" pretty convenient (again) if you ask me.
ambivalentmace:
that is a legitimate point, because the only video footage i saw was the luggage scattered all over the floor after the attack, but no video of the actual event or even them running away and being shot at various points 100 to 400 meters away. very troubling thoughts are starting to creep in my intoxicated end of the year gray matter, cheers sino bear.
There are good elderly and bad ones.
even animals would be thankful for your help let along humans.
But yes, it can get you into trouble.
Never tried, but heard a lot about it too.
"west the media have proven very effective in blowing an otherwise minor concern way out of proportion. "
You mean Chinese social media. And this is under reported. Many students have shared stories about someone they know being extorted themselves or threatened (by the police ) into making false statements against the good Samaritan. Add to the fact that you are a foreigner. Anyone who says that this is something created by "west" media is an idiot or living in a cave. Talk to Chinese people who have never read a news article from abroad. They'll tell you.
Stiggs:
I tend to agree. Every article I've seen has been via Chinese media and I'm sure that for every one that gets reported there are many more that don't. Just like a lot of things here.
Which makes it hard to really know just how common it is.
Firstly - the way I heard it, a judge in Nanjing was a moron, as when someone was extorted for something similar, the ruling was that "only someone who felt guilty after having done such a bad thing would actually stop and help afterwards".... hence, like in most other countries, once one moron makes a legal ruling, it becomes a precedent the others ignorantly follow - but not always!!! Others have also been cases where the judge has thrown this BS out!
If you're a certified (or at least, previously trained) I would suggest if this case went to court, then that could be used as evidence of the reason you helped, should such stupidity come up.
Thirdly, after the FeiFei incident down south a few years ago, China was bringing in those 'good samaritan' laws anyway, making it a legal requirement to stop and help.
Fourthly - the chances aren't really high that they'll try and scam you. In that respect, it's blown out of proportion. Unfortunately, if you are scammed, they'll really hit your pocket!
Filthily - the police are 'in' on it, because it means less paperwork for them. They'll try to 'negotiate' a payment fee, rather than having to do the long taxing work of their job. Also remember, that 'extra' work would require a translator... and we all know just how difficult that its! Much easier (for them) to say "Ni - laowai - gei ta qian!" and then get back to sitting on their arse doing nothing. Also remember, probably not unlikely that the Chinese person will offer up a percentage of the payment as a bribe to the police. For most people likely to pull this scam, the money they get out of you would be SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the amount you could pull out of them (if it was the other way around). Besides - you're a foreigner... This is what business with foreigners is all about - cheating out the foreigner! (even 1 kuai is sufficient for this! cos the face value will live on in memory for decades! "There was this one time, this stupid laowai came and helped me when I tripped over, and I scammed her out of 10 kuai... hahahahahahaaaa....")
icnif77:
I have one problem: 'how can they sue me, if I'm able to leave country at my whim?' 'add-it': Some with families in China might be scared to get sued.
Should I be scared I'll be sued, because I would always help, doesn't matter where I am?
I want to help caged animals-pets here, just by talking to owners. In English
. Lucky them (or me) I'm not fluent in Chinese.
Shining_brow:
Because, now legally, they can stop you from leaving the country. Chinese law was introduced a couple of years ago about that.
icnif77:
You're saying, Court will inform all Chinese border crossings that 'laowai' has pending 'si in ius' to appear in Court, and should be stopped to cross the border, before Court decides 'guilty or innocent'?
If you read that Law, it's against International Law norms.
I meant, 'leaving the country as soon as you receive Court subpoena', not later when you're convicted and in debt already.
Shining_brow:
"International Law norms".... Like, that's something new???
I'm only telling you that a law was introduced in China to stop foreigners leaving the country if there was a financial reason to keep them here (ie, money is owed).
icnif77:
OK I admit, I'm sneaky mastard and plan 
ahead (of the Law).
International Law norms matter, when your Embassy wants to protect you! However you look, it would be ridiculous one must run, because he/she helped person in need.
Stiggs:
I'm sure they can take your passport to stop you leaving if there is some sort of legal action going on.
icnif77:
We're going into scare ......, so I looked into the Chinese Law books very quick.
shenme:
http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cgvienna/eng/dbtyw/jdwt/crimelaw/t209043.htm
There're more articles, but all this warrant 'crime' was committed. Help person in need isn't crime, and I assume you could be liable, because Chinese 'person in need' would say you hurt her/him, and demanded fin. compensation. See term 'punitive damage'.
It's not that because you help somebody at fall, you'll have your passport confiscated and you'll go to jail.
Let's do IELTS/TOEFL prep. instead.
Stiggs:
Let's face it, the law would most likely be interpreted and applied as the local police saw fit, probably depending on who knows who, who gives the bigger red envelope and whatever prejudices the cops might hold.
We might or might not come out of it ok but to be honest I'd rather not have to go down that road at all. I don't want to have to quit my job and leave the country in a hurry because some greedy asshole with no morals decided to try to take advantage of me when I helped him.
icnif77:
I agree Stiggs, but still Chinese laws aren't that flexible, and there's your Embassy for help, too!
icnif77:
You can't get arrested in China unless you commit the crime. Your passport also can't be taken, if you didn't commit crime.
Being sued for punitive damage doesn't give right to Chinese authorities to prevent one's exit from China.
China is signatory under International law (norms).
Stiggs:
Icnif, that might be what the law is in theory but I really don't think it's that way in reality.
Any English teacher who has been here more that a couple of years would probably agree that rules depend on who you know and who you give nice hongbao to.
China is also signatory to international maritime law, IPR law and all the WTO rules but they choose to disregard those laws whenever it suits them. Hell, they have their own constitution that they disregard. Rules don't mean much here.
Shining_brow:
??? Icnif- really???
"Can't be arrested unless you've done a crime"... No, you get arrested because you're ACCUSED of committing a 'crime'! And yes, you're passport CAN be taken without your guilt having been proven (beyond a reasonable doubt) - we do that back home as well, to stop possible murders from escaping the country and 'justice'.
Is owing money a 'crime'? Not in and of itself.. but fraud is! So is 'obtaining money by deception'. So is 'theft'. If they wanted to, there's a number of other charges you could be arrested for if it suited them. And especially - China's favouriite - disrupting social harmony...
icnif77:
We're going into the lawyers stuff here. It's complicated to talk about it on assumptions.
My point was 'it's not so easy in China for laowai to get arrested'. One's Embassy stays behind foreigner, and must agree with Chinese procedure.
'Social disturbance' is one of the 'explanations' why one country doesn't want you here anymore. You're bound for exit, not to jail that much.
One's passport belong to State, which issued it. Chinese (or any other state authority) can't take one's passport unless there's a lot of proof one had committed crime, and one is required to remain in country for further Court procedure and jail eventually.
One of the reasons, why at accusation 'caused social disturbance' one isn't arrested, but must exit country. It's is difficult to prove 'caused social disturbance'. Mostly 'social disturbance' it's just an 'opinion', which in other countries (diff. regime) can be opposite-again-OPINION.
That's why French reporter wasn't arrested, but didn't have her Chinese visa renewed. She was also a diplomat (w/ immunity), who rarely get put in jail in host countries.
We're not in N. Horea, where one should be scared to get arrested, because Ill Snug 'didn't get right shoes this morning' or 'it was raining too long that morning'.
China signed International laws, and Court procedure (foreign passports and such) must be respected.
If I'd be diplomat at your country's Embassy in China, and I received memo from Chinese police about you're being arrested and passport confiscated, I'd never think, you helped person in need, but you committed something serious, for which Chinese are holding undeniable evidence. Rant you.....
Some good answers, thanks.
I still don't know what I'd do if I see something like it again. If I'm with a friend have them video it just in case I suppose.
What a ridiculous thing to have to worry about.
There was a Bull trying to screw a Cow.
Every time the Bull would try, the Cow would move forward and Bull was unsuccessful.
A Bee was watching this and thought of helping the Bull.
So, the Bee told the Bull, i will go near the back side of the Cow and she will be distracted, so you can quickly do your job.
The Bee did exactly what she had told and the moment Bull accomplished his mission, the Bee was also pushed in......
Moral of the story ....
Do not be a Bee.
Even if you record that you were not responsible for accident, you will be blamed for helping them in a wrong way and their injury was aggravated.
All men are guilty unless proved innocent.
When I arrived in Chengdu, 2012, I was ignorant of how things can turn out for foriegners. While long staying at a popular hostel, I got to know the staff pretty well. One evening, the female manager came to me stressed, and in broken English said there was an emergency in the toilet upstairs and to come help. I followed her, and lo and behold there was a male in his twenties slumped over in the corner. A needle and syringe was visible near his arm which had a small amount of blood on it. I assessed immediately one of two things: probable IV Drug user, overdose, or possible diabetic in shock.
I pulled him from the toilet and laid him on his side (just in case he was to vomit). I then checked for a pulse...it was weak, but steady. He appeared to be breathing. I tried to rouse him by slapping his cheeks a bit and taling loud in his ear... marginal response.
I stayed with him until the medics arrived. They put him on a stretcher and they needed my help getting him own the stairs. The manager was goinmg to the hospital with him as pleaded I go too. I did.
Come to find out he was an IV drug user, based on a call from the manager to his Aunt.
-------
Ive been in China 3 years, and have read too many horror stories about foreigners getting fleeced, fooked over, etc. If the same situation would come to pass, I would NOT help or assist in any way. I would say its a Chinese problem and Im not Chinese.
I feel bad to think this way, but I must protect myself first.
Your concern should be about if someone would help YOU. You should worry about that! Rather if you will help or not someone, cause one this im bloody sure: nobody will help YOU!
I beg to differ with many here. I would do exactly what I expect other passerby's to do when I fall down and become helpless (ok, quite some years to be 'elderly').
Stiggs:
What you expect them to do,or what you would hope they would do? From what I've heard and seen in the media most local people would expect people to keep walking. Obviously you'd hope they stop to help.
WhyHowWhen:
@Stiggs, when i am the victim, of course i'd expect (hope, in yr words) others to help/save!
Stiggs:
Well then, I really hope, if you find yourself in that situation, that people live up to your expectations.
WhyHowWhen:
@Stiggs, i hope so too, but no regrets if nobody comes forward.. in anycase, i would not allow that one swindler to stop 99 genuine victims from getting help..
Shining_brow:
There's not much stopping a 'genuine victim' from also trying to swindle someone. Which is how it all started in the first place!
WhyHowWhen:
I'd believe why let those who swindle, determine my actions and stop me from a basic duty of helping a elderly fellow human?
