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Posts: 52

Governor

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Q: Is it acceptable to unexpectedly do a phone and online interview at 10 at night?

(Backstory: I'm looking for a summer camp position)

 

Tonight, while I was outside running (after 10 pm), this woman from the Shantou Education Bureau, Li Hua, calls me and wants to do a phone and then online interview immediately! My phone is low on power: Furthermore I am tired, sweating, and then.. an unexpected interview. Although I told the woman where I was and what I was doing, and that it was very late, she derided me for not being at home and on my computer for her call. I was further told that for Chinese people that is a perfectly acceptable time to call. 

 

Am I losing my mind? Is that acceptable because she's the one hiring and I'm looking for a summer position? I got a serious case of the BCD's and told the woman in Chinese how rude she is acting. Should I have said:

 

"I'm sorry m'am, I should have expected that you would have unexpectedly call me so late at night. I should have stayed home and waited for your unexpected late-night interview. I apologize for being outside with a slowly dying phone power cell. And 'oh yes' I apologize because I still need to run another 45 minutes to get home."

 

Should I have said that? I'm tripping out here. Anybody else had something similar happen to them? I don't know what to tell the agent that introduced me.

8 years 38 weeks ago in  Business & Jobs - China

 
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Emperor

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Perhaps this is an example of the way in which this camp will be run? Ad hoc at the whim of the benevolent leader. Caveat emptor.

yogsothoth:

Yeah, I was thinking that too. A lot of interviewers never consider they are being interviewed too. If someone is doing a late-night power trip on the phone, I can only guess what working for them would be like.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Emperor

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Usual presumptuousness...I have nothing planned therefore you have nothing planned.

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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
Posts: 702

Shifu

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she already wanted to hire you.. interview was just a formality

yogsothoth:

It was an exhausting formality. Questions after question after question; being told she's not sure whether I can do the job correctly or not. The job was teaching Chinese English teachers how-to make spoken and listening classes more interesting. The interviewer was actually very intense.. for a formality,

8 years 38 weeks ago
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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Perhaps this is an example of the way in which this camp will be run? Ad hoc at the whim of the benevolent leader. Caveat emptor.

yogsothoth:

Yeah, I was thinking that too. A lot of interviewers never consider they are being interviewed too. If someone is doing a late-night power trip on the phone, I can only guess what working for them would be like.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
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your part of the community, commune, communism, how dare you think your life is more important than the collective goals of china.

yogsothoth:

your comments shed light on the dark empty abyss that is me.. I realize I have failed China... gotta call grandpa Mao in hell and apologize.. thanks Mace!

8 years 38 weeks ago
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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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Seems you dodged a bullet there, buddy.

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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
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I wouldn't care how high-end the job would have been, I'd have told them the same thing - get off!

 

If they're not willing to treat you with respect, then don't do it! She obviously wasn't.

 

I've only needed to do a couple of skype interviews, and they were arranged in advance, with times acceptable to both of us.

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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
Posts: 458

Shifu

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I wouldn't work for them...she disrespected your time, was arrogant and rude, and expected you to say 'thank you.' That is an indication of what you will be tolerating if you work for her company. The fact that this is a summer camp gig makes me want to tell you to run twice as fast--if this woman is pulling her power-play bs on you now, imagine how much it will suck to work for these people, in the middle of nowhere, with a truckload of children.

In ESL, particularly in China, and particularly if you have any qualifications whatsoever and plan to come to your job sober, they will always need you more than you need them. I am not saying that to encourage acting like a douche in the office...but if the potential employer is already abusing you to build his/her little ego (a common practice with Chinese management), it will be their loss if you punt them. You could always replace them in a few hours.

I have never had an interview go that terribly...the closest that I can think of is a time I interviewed for a part-time job at a school that happened to be in a tower outside the mall. I was going to meet my interviewer (who chose the time of the interview, I will add) at the front of the mall, and then go to the school with her.

I got a Wechat message, about 5 minutes before the interview was to start, saying that she would be late...as she had a meeting in another school right before the meeting (again, she chose the time of the interview). I brushed it off, played a few GRE practice games on my phone, and waited. 25 minutes later, I got a WeChat message that she was in the school, and that I could just come to the tower. The whole reason that we were to meet at the front was because I did not know how to get to the tower...I ended up going into the wrong one before finding the school.

The interviewers were rude, stupid, and arrogant the entire time. Things like asking me to tell them how I structure my plans, and then dismissing it by saying, 'you should do role-plays.' Also, that I had to bring all my materials, and that they didn't even have a book (something that I think just makes them a bunch of idiots who bought some office space and decided to call it a school...). It ended with the prissy little snot looking me dead in the eye and actually saying, "I suggest that you come to your classes 15 minutes early. That way, if you get lost, you will still be on time." To me, the person who waited half an hour for her to not even show me the way.

I later got a condescending WeChat message from the princess telling me that I had to call out from classes 25 hours in advance, and it was (of course!) unaccepatable to not show up for a class. I made a point of waiting until about 10 minutes before my class was supposed to start to remind her that I actually had never agreed to work for her company. I don't know if she checked her messages in time, and I don't care.

yogsothoth:

Good story. Thank you for telling it. If people don't show you respect from the start, there will never be a start.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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hunny797:

so she gave you a class without signing any contract??

8 years 38 weeks ago
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yogsothoth:

hey 'hunny' are you a wumao? i just get that wumao feeling when i read your posts... maybe i'm wrong

8 years 38 weeks ago
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RachelDiD:

hunny--it was a PT gig, like I said. Why would there be a contract?

8 years 38 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

A wumao or a CFTUnuch

8 years 38 weeks ago
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hunny797:

OP: I did miss that part..my bad..

expatty: you re out of your mind.. and you know that

8 years 38 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

Yeah im messing with you, youve been around a while not a wumao

8 years 38 weeks ago
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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
Posts: 2878

Shifu

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Not for nothing I don't mean this to put anybody down specifically, cause I don't know any of your stories.

 

But i see the people I meet in real life in China who are the most vocal about their "I would NEVER take any shit from MY employer!" kinda attitudes are the ones with the lowest paying jobs.

 

Like the people making 6K a month at some college or private school and complain that everything nice costs too much. "40 RMB ($6.50) for a cheeseburger and fries! Extorting the foreigners with that kinda robbery!!!" Or whining their free apartment is really crappy.

 

And i'm not saying those are bad jobs or anything. If you like that and know the limits of what you'll get from it more power to you, I just mean that it feels like that person is screaming "i have zero ambition in life, but I also still expect to be respected in the job market like i'm gods gift to employers" And that would be really nice, but that's not the world we live in. Especially not in China. 

 

You can not take any shit and end up homeless because you can't get along with people and act the victim all the time. Or you can learn to get along with difficult people because it's in your best interests.

 

Take that for what it's worth.

expatlife26:

then you got the people in education with their shit together who manage to schedule themselves in 27K/mth in classes. 

 

The people making $55K+ USD a year take home with a humanities degree in a place where you don't need a car and nice apartments are reasonable so they have tons of disposable income.

 

You don't hear those types whining about their free apartments or how their schools fuck with them. All those guys do is earn. 

8 years 38 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

You pissed people off with the truth on that one. Hahaha They aint gonna take shit from their employers and they aint gonna take shit from you either expat!

8 years 38 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

haha yeah totally saw that coming.

 

Not trying to be a dick I wouldnt say that if i didnt think it was true.

 

sounds like youre of the same mind.

 

You really do meet these people doing pretty solid as teachers and you just dont hear them whining about shit you know? They bust their ass and then enjoy what life has to offer same as any other middle class person.

 

It's always the guy bragging about working 12 hrs a week bitching about how awful his life is. You dont care about money...thats fine. But if you're pissed off all the time you probably do care just have no initiative.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Hotwater:

You can have an upvote for that rant! Spot on. 

8 years 38 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

I'm as polite as it gets with intolerable Chinese employers; I made a dismal job teaching countryside nongs work for years, for the sake of my kids. Despite this, I also had a run-in with a recruiter, questioning my professionalism when I told her she called at a bad time. It's not a sign that I'm expecting too much in life; it's a sign that a person has such contempt for you that they are offended over a triviality. In both cases, the caller ruined their chance to hire a reliable employee due to their bad attitude. Do you honestly think teachers miss out on career advancement opportunities by not letting employers walk all over them? Of course not. The points you made were valid, but this situation is in no way indicative of the things you talk about. Uncalled for value judgements. I'll give you an upvote, but only to keep my own response visible.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

whenever I post something that gets a bunch of downvotes I never get a well-thought out rebuttal. just meaningless clicks

 

I dont say shit like this to stir the pot or something i'm not mean spirited but I really think what i said is true.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

I think you changed the subject slightly. This phone encounter doesn't characterize yogsothoth in the way you portray him at all. There are indeed a lot of difficult foreign employees who can't climb the ladder because they are too high maintenance. But there was no ladder to climb here, just a rude caller. I think Chinese simply don't pick up the phone if it's a bad time, while we consider that disrespectful, and simply communicate that fact after picking up. The unexpected backlash from the caller may be a culture clash - we expect more decency from people in interaction, which is our mistake.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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dokken:

I think you're a bit rude and arrogant. you change the subject, divert it to the subject of what unambitious losers esl teachers are, then compare yourself, stating how great you are. You assume things about the writer that he has not given information on.  Perhaps he earns 18 000 a month in Shanghai. Is that respectable enough for you, or is he still a whiney teacher?The truth is if you did not get sent over by a company you don't earn that much. This is an anonymous forum and any gimp can say they are earning lots of money. If you're lucky you earn more than an esl teacher in Shanghai. But probably you do not.

 

People who teach in universities, because they do not earn enough money do not have the right to complain if an employer treats you badly.mthis is the statement of an asshole. Lots of these people are just graduates looking to travel. They will go home and earn more money than you. Unless headhunted by a top Chinese company, all Chinese employers regardless of level, can potentially treat you like shit. 

8 years 38 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

I don't think I did talk about myself at all there.

 

The point is that there are tons of people who teach who completely have their shit together no matter what salary they are making. Hell one of my best friends here until he went back to the US to get his masters couple years ago really cleaned up. Worked a uni job for the legit visa then scheduled in tons of extra hours at training schools and private lessons to where he was taking home 27K.

 

You're right it WAS more than I was making at the time after taxes. Moved back with enough in the bank to pay for another degree outta pocket. Good on him.

 

Im not shitting on teachers at all in general. 

 

But then you get the type that always is having problems and its usually a combo of bad judgement and a shitty attitude. Some things are legit out of our control, but a lot of it isn't. If somebody wants ESL to work for them, whatever their goals are. It WILL work for them. Just so long as the real problem isnt that they either hate teaching or just don't like working in general

 

One of the nice things about China is that as a westerner especailly white there is no reason to be stuck in poverty. Tons of good situations out there.

 

I dont know the OPs deal, but I know from this comment that it seems like he threw a tantrum when a school asked him to interview at a shitty team. Yeah it's aggravating but do you want the job or not? It's a quick buck from a 5 day program who cares if they're rude to you?

 

I dunno I just feel like theres this big group of people here that act like nothings good enough for them and act like it's not their own fault. Colleges pay is low! Language Mills expect you to work a lot of hours! Private lessons always cancel!  Yeah colleges don't pay much but there are low hours. Trade off. Language schools make you work at inconvenient times because that's their business model providing lessons to people who work or are in school during regular hours. Private lessons are gonna cancel I guess. 

 

 

i see so many people make it work that it's frustrating when people act like China is just this hopeless land of misery. 

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I will also disagree with you, Expat.

 

Yes, there are the chronic whingers. Quite often they are towards the bottom of the barrel, and they also tend to be lesser qualified, and usually they did the 'career change' (made redundant, perhaps?)

 

However, there are also a goodly bunch of us (yes, I'm including myself) who won't put up with so much of the BS that happens here, such as the OP's post. Currently, I might be on about 6K/month (but, it's a new gig, and I haven't been given many classes). And I'll also turn down classes if/when I feel like it (turn down the offer - not just cancel a class!!) But I can also charge (and get) 500RMB for a 30 min 'evaluation and recommendation' session.

 

Life is NOT about money! And I firmly believe that someone should work with/to what they're happy with. And one of those things, for some, is the people we work with.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Robk:

@expatlife26 - I knew there was going to be a barrage of feedback on that one but the truth is the truth.

 

You got to give action to get action. Can't just whine about it and expect everyone to take the time to get to know you and the limits of your potential.

 

Some people will cry, point fingers and get mighty defensive when you call people out... while some people will take a look in the mirror, take a deep breath, stop moaning and make something happen. Your post was kind of off-track though as the OP was talking about rude recruiters blowing up his phone. And running into rude people is not dependent on your salary or willingness to put up with bullshit. To put it in perspective. If a client calls me up at 10pm, that's cool because they get mixed up with the timezones. I can usually tell them that it is late here and would be better to speak to them another time. 90-95% will say something like, "Oh sorry, I didn't know. When would be a good time to call?" However, there are those self-centered pricks that will say stuff like, "Well this is the only time I can talk, so go to a quiet place and let's talk about the project." You have to deal with scumbags in every profession at every pay grade. If people are rude to me, it affects me work relationship with them and I would prefer to give those people a pass... not worth the money or the stress.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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dongbeiren:

I have to agree with expatlife26 here - the truth sometimes hurts and can hit people in a sore spot but the fact is that it's impossible to get ahead in ESL or any other field without being willing to take some crap - not that people should jump at the first offer from a seemingly incompetent employer but it's never going to be that easy unless you're satisfied with the minimum. There are so man ESL teachers in China who stay year after year at crappy schools with minimal salaries who do not even try to find a better situation. Maybe the schools they're in are basically honest and not the worst places to work but there are better jobs and opportunities out there. I know teachers who've been in China for 5 years and still make 10k rmb a month and others who've been here less than 5 years and make 40k rmb a month. Sure, the latter group has to work harder and put up with more BS but the reward is the better job, lifestyle and savings. I don't necessarily think the OP should jump at working for a camp that conducts itself that way but expat's overall point is on the money and the fact that it elicited so many negative reactions shows that it the truth can hit some people hard - very few people are willing to blame themselves for their inability to get ahead and are more likely to make excuses and look towards external factors. 

 

It's also interesting that aside from me, it's the non-teachers who all agree with expat (whereas I'm one of those teachers making 27k or thereabouts per month and it was not easy at all getting there and I had to deal with some horrible people along the way). 

8 years 38 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

I think a lot of people got hung up that this wasn't 100% on topic...and I tried to be up front with that I don't know the OP situation. I just think what I said is true and didnt want to make a new thread. 

 

Dongbeiren, that's awesome youre doing good and thank you for not thinking this was some kinda dig at every teacher. When I said 27K i was talking about a buddy of mine. Worked at a college teaching minimal hours, low pay no housing but gave a legit visa. (they knew the deal, the agreement was minimal hours and a visa in exchange for a low salary and not bothering him...like 4K in a big city low) All his classes early AM. Then off to work at a training school, filling out with private classes. Everybodies incentives line up. College gets a required teacher for next to nothing, dude got a visa keep everything legal, training school has no power to fuck him around cause they don't own his visa, and the tutor customers are just gravy.

 

tough scheudle no question but lived well and saved enough to go home and get another degree.  You can't look at a guy like that like "oh ur scumbag teacher haha!"  And theres a lot of people like that out there. Sounds like youre one of them.

 

So i read posts by these guys who just have problem after problem and think why does it work so well for some people almost right away and others nothing but trouble. I dunno maybe they aren't vetting jobs before they take them, 

 

I got into it with Icnif on some other thread cause he's saying that the 5 schools he's had to call SAFEA on that there was nothing he coulda done differently. Everything just outside his control. And I just don't believe that. Bad luck once maybe twice I understand but I can name a few people just off the top of my head that I see regularly who NEVER have these employment issues. They just somehow manage go to work every day and live their lives. And I believe in my heart that if these problem people acted like them they'd be fine too.

 

I'm not saying let yourself get exploited either. It's just this attitude of where anything doesnt go somebodies way they flip out and that's a fast lane ticket to losertown. No you shouldn't be working more hours than you're contracted for, but I know so many people who just don't have that problem. Or maybe it happened ONCE when they first got here before they figure out how to get in a good situation. Gotta focus on doing things which are in your best interest instead of your pride. Doesn't mean your taking it up the ass either. But it means that you can say "ok this job sucks, so i'm going to make sure the next one doesn't" 

8 years 38 weeks ago
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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
Posts: 724

Shifu

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I wouldn't consider this position myself. This HR sounds very unprofessional. Good luck if you are hired. 

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I wouldn't mind being called about business at 10pm, but if it's a bad time, the caller should simply accept that. Employers in China expect complete submissiveness from employees, which includes foreign devil job seekers. Perhaps the situation was a lucky glimpse into how you would be treated by this self-important bossu.

expatlife26:

yeah but the OP said it's just some 5 day summer camp.

 

Theres no setting the tone for that. 

 

you either want the money or you dont.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

Any decent teacher has his pick of summer camps. Even in the small city I worked, an American mentioned having 3 offers, and regretting signing up with the 1st one (my boss) because of low pay and bad attitude. My boss payed me quite well incidentally (or I'd have left sooner), but I wasn't a summer camp teacher. 5 days can still be an eternity if the staff show their contempt for you, and the amount of compensation matters too.

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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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To some people, there are more important things than money (such as self-respect).

 

For some, groveling and sucking up to their "social betters" is totally acceptable if it gets them a high salary. Others would gladly tell self-entiteld pricks to take their job and shove it if they get treated with disrespect.

 

There's a wide gap between "getting along with difficult people" and obsequies kowtowing ("Yes, ma'am! I'm just the dumb foreigner, and should be grateful you would deign to allow me to work for you!"). I can deal with difficult people. I don't need to put up with arrogant employers who assume that because they have the money and power, I'll be their dancing monkey. I would prefer a job for less pay (not talking homeless, just less pay) if I get treated right. Self respect is more important to me than a paycheck.

 

The OP wasn't claiming to be "gods gift to employers"(sic), but complaining that the prospective employer was a self-entiteled egotist, with an air of superiority, and attitude of "I expect you to be ready at all times, since I will call you whenever I feel like it".

ambivalentmace:

i always embarrass people like this, if they call at 10 pm, tell them you have one more private lesson and you will be free at 10:30 pm for an hour before writing lesson plans for your 12 classes at 3 schools tomorrow.

if they expect you to be on call, make them think your a workaholic that is working them into your schedule.

the crazy thing is they want give up on you, if 3 schools want this teacher, i better get him to work for me, crazy thinking but TIC, it works here.

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a word of advise, make sure you do summer camps for reputable companies like new oriental that will pay you 60 days after the camp is over or get the cash weekly or daily to avoid a financial hit, these summer camper wonders seem to wander off with all the money and leave you hanging, unless you know the people involved through other foreigners, if they did not do the camp last summer, just run like hell away.

Shining_brow:

"New Oriental". "Reputable"??? Reputation is the ONLY thing they have! And it's based on lies and advertising.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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ambivalentmace:

chinese do not have a good reputation for anything really, i should have been more specific, reputable enough to get paid only, nothing else matters when everything is bad, at least you should get your money.

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8 years 38 weeks ago
 
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Here is a mindset I will NEVER EVER accept:

 

"I am your (poential) employer so I can command more respect than you, my employee. We are not equals."

 

This happens frequently, all over the world but is much worse in China. An employer in China thinks they literally own you, or are giving you a favor by giving you a job. They think they can get you to do any task they wish (this is especially true for Chinese employees) and you don't have the right to complain.

 

They can make you wait but you can NEVER make them wait. They can call at 10pm and tell you "You should have been ready for my call." with absolutely NO WARNING... but if you did the same... "Why are you calling me at this time?! I am busy... don't bother me now."

 

I can't work with these types of people. They drive me insane because usually they take on these attitudes to over-compensate for their lack of intelligence, integrity and innovation. They are control freaks simply because they can't control themselves and instead want to take advantage of other people's talents. I know cause I was in the ESL world and this would happen consistently.

 

Now, I work for myself and my clients show mutual respect. We work together rather than under some sort of stupid hierarchical structure. With the recent addition of English speaking examinations to the gao kao, foreigners are more in demand than EVER. So don't take any guff from these fucking swine!

 

 

Shining_brow:

"recent addition of English to the Gaokao"??? It's been in the gaokao for years! And only just recently (last year??) had it's percentage reduced.

8 years 38 weeks ago
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Robk:

To my knowledge, the gao kao has of course had English but mainly only examined in the form of grammar, reading comprehension and writing.

 

I have never heard of formal oral English examinations give to pass the gao kao.

 

This is being recently added following the reduction of the English scores grade weight within the gao kao.

8 years 37 weeks ago
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A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77