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Q: I've been a dick. Mea culpa
I've just spent the last two weeks in Hunan. Hunan is a wonderful place compared with where I'm staying in Hebei, which could put in a really good run in the arsehole of the earth championhip.
I'd like to venture a proposition, and please feel free to rubbish it:
Many of us posters who write negative and critical things about Chinese manners, rusticity and selfishness are probably living in the places where the upwardly mobile people predominate. Upwardly mobile people from all societies tend to be crass, shallow, materialistic, vain, inauthentic, single digit, low-frequency blowhards.
Perhaps the reason so many of us come on here to let off steam is because we're living in the parts of China where the crass, shallow and ambitious predominate.
I'm not saying there aren't problems in the provinces and that the Chinese are corrupted noble savages by any means. I've never intended to be condescending toward another culture, although I have been rather harsh in my "critiques" - if you can call them that.
Yunnan, Hunan and Guangxi provinces, in my opinion are some of the most fantastic places I've been. I would gladly earn less money to lead a more pleasant lifestyle and be around people whose souls aren't destroyed by ambition.
If they could just drive properly and not constantly cut in line or stand around the stairwells when people are trying to get past there might just be a perfect province.
Seriously loved my time in Hunan. Your food culture and the vibrancy of your cities makes me feel so positive about China.
If I'm pissed off in the future, I will remember to say that it's the greedy, crass and selfish "Hebei" people. If you look at the landscape up here, you'd concur with me that it's the ecological holocaust of the GDP-hungry's killing fields. I'd better stop writing now, or I'll revert back to my standard negativity. I want to carry my pleasant time back here with me.
Who wants to cut me down for positing such balderdash?
when it comes to ignorance and shallowness, i don't think it can all be attributed to - as Billy Connolly would put it - the Volvo-driving cunts fucking things up for the rest of us. there is no delightfully eccentric upper class of professional tobogganists, there are no charmingly quirky peasants with strong and interesting culture. everyone has been influenced by confucian traditions and the oppressive regime. they all shun socially-relevant topics, they all copy, they're all obsessed with money and face. they're all crass and craven, they all drive Volvos so to speak.
laowaigentleman:
Haha! I hopw this topic's still floating around tomorrow. It's fun. Samsara was writing about Paradise Lost and liking Chinese complaisance and credulity to the heavenyl aspect of Milton's conception of the holy.
I am hoping to bait him to talk a little about Blake's Thel and some other aspects of romanticism, but I love the achetype of the tobogganist.
What do you do? Toboggan... Beats them all...
laowaigentleman:
Maybe it is the same piece of material but he was talking about how the working classes and the aristocracy just gel together nicely at community events and once the aspiration middle classes show up, it all turns to shit.
Billy is a god. I saw him live, front row, slightly off centre.
coineineagh:
Billy is in the newest Hobbit movie. I regognized his voice straight away. it was my favourite part of the movie, but there was nobody to share it with. it reminded me for a moment how alone you can be as the only westerner around. Even Dutch folk can half appreciate an appearance by a famous Scottish actor, but when i mentioned it to Chinese co-workers, i got a blank response.…
OK, so I'll not share your love with Hunan, but you do have a point. I find that as soon as you are in the smaller communities, although perhaps the novelty of a white face grows, so does the warmth with which the increased interest is showed. A simple over-generalization; In the big cities white face = let me rip of that guy, in the small communities white face = let me make a new friend.
It is pretty much everywhere. As soon as I'm 50km outside of Zhuhai, strange shit like people randomly inviting for tea, restaurant employees who may stare extra but certainly also do their best to make it a pleasant dining experience.
And yes. The majority of the Chinese people are good people. Some are rough around the edges, but cannot fault the individual for that. As I always say. It's the 1.2 billion Chinese that make the last 100 million look bad !
laowaigentleman:
I think they are mostly polite too. The real problem is their political and economic system which elevates what are actually the dirges of society.
This is universal, but more pronounced in China. In my youth I've had to put up with seeing some completely thick yobbos get certifications in fields related to commerce and earn (get) considerably more than people ten times more competent than them can get. China must be this multiplied by a factor of ten.
Imagine what it's like to grow up in a place which tells you that sycophancy is the ultimate virtue.
coineineagh:
@laowai: we all have a moment that gives us pause. that moment when you think: "hey, a Chinese person was really nice to me. maybe i've got things all wrong." but you comment just now is closer to the truth: sycophancy is the norm.
I agree with you mostly. I have always wondered where the negative thinking expats live who are always complaining about China and Chinese people. I suspected that they were living in places like Beijing, Shanghai, or other large cities.
In my experience, and this is only my experience, Chinese people who live in cities that are comprised of people who have grown up and continue to live there are better types of people. This is in contrast to the cities where the population is comprised of migrant Chinese. If a Chinese population of a city are mostly migrant, the people fail to have a sense of community. They have a difficult time finding friends. They are only there to work. Home is where they grew up. No matter how many years a Chinese person lives in a new city, it can never be home. That is why Spring Festival is so very important. It is a chance to go back to your roots.
If you doubt me, consider this...Chinese seldom make new, close friends once they graduate from college. They might have workmates. But, their friends are ususally considered real friends from when they are in school. And, even when finding a person to date and marry, they first look towards their old schoolmates. Workmates are merely a way to a means of prosperity. They are seldom trusted as a close schoolmate might be. That is not to say all Chinese are this way. Nor, does it say that things are not changing aong the younger generations. But, as a rule of thumb, it is still a major factor.
So, when you live in a place like Beijing, Suzhou, Hangzhou, these cities are filled with migrant workers looking for a better job and money. They are not there looking for a better life. The better life always seems to be from their hometown. They have a hard time adjusting to the new world that surrounds them. And, they often view the move as temporary, so what is the point of getting close to new people when you might leave soon.
Before this turns into a Chinese culture book, I will end with this one final piee of information. Companies in migrant cities began developing basketball teams and competitions to help migrant workers develop a sense of community. Not only did the players of the teams begin to feel closer to one another and bond, but so does the workforce of the company. in some cities, there are hundreds of these teams. And, during the matches against companies, you would see crowds in auditoriums as large as some small colleges in the USA. Basketball was one way for employers to keep migrant workers happy and committed to their positions.
Great comment you made there. I had a similar experience while traveling in remote Sichuan & Yunnan. My wife mentioned the same things on a road-trip she did alone in Ganxu. The people in those places might be a bit rough around the edges. However, the honesty, hospitality and mutual respect that is so thin in the East Coast cities is back to what I used to see as the human standard. They are not "good savages", they are people who have only human solidarity and common sense to keep themselves afloat. My first exposure to China were those places and those people, so I used to be far more positive than I am now.
I went to rural Hunan with a Chinese friend. We were visiting his family and I can honestly say I have never been made to feel more welcome anywhere.
I have just seen my fiends photo is his home on his wechat and I thought for a moment I should have gone with him. But then I remembered the traffic on the last trip there.
Behaviour in cities is possibly worse because there is nobody known to you that will moderate your behaviour. Just random people bumping into other random people. The countryside tends to be different.
laowaigentleman:
Haha, Alan, I am trying to elicit parallels between contemporary China and Britain during the industrial revolution. I was hoping guys like you would jump on this opportunity...
ScotsAlan:
Well, when I was there I visited a factory in the countryside. They made coat hangers, and it was almost like some from the industrial revolution era. Very interesting. And some really clever machines. Everyone seemed happy enough though. Especially after we had a big lunch and down a couple of bottles of Mao Tai.
The countryside itself was good. Not at all in the dark ages. Lots of rice harvesting machines about ( purchased by local communities under a Government subsidy). I saw lots of people just getting on with stuff and working together. My mate's family, for example, have more land than they can farm, so their neighbour farms it and gives a share of the crop. Another guy down the valley has a big pond with some very decent carp in it. No problem to fish it. Just ask. He even gave us bait.
Another pond we went to, the owners said no problem to fish it for free, but they said we could only take 1 fish each ( no problem.... they averaged 6kg).
On different nights of the week the local people all went to a different house to play cards and drink tea.
Lots of road building going on too, to get to the more remote houses. Narrow concrete roads winding their way between the low hills. Many of the roads are not free, but massively subsidized. A few thousand rmb per 100m or so.
A totally different place to the city. I would love to live in the countryside. But my wife says no. Too inconvienient.......
laowaigentleman:
See that! A man just outdid himself describing how men can outdo themselves! 
ScotsAlan:
You can only outdo yourself if you are going beyond your abilities.
I put forward George Bush number 2 as a prime example.
But wait... everyone thought he was dumb. But was he?
I think he was very very smart. He made a lot of money for his pals. He made a lot of money for them. I watched his cold bucket challange. Hundreds of thousands of dead and he poured cold water over his head. Was that his pennance?
laowaigentleman:
I think he was used by Rove, Rumsfeld and co.
He looked the part for a media age presidency and was simple enough to be fully controlled by his agenda-driven advisors.
Powell and Rice have always baffled me. I can't understand either of them.
Ok, mea culpa. I know there are plenty of good people here. I've met them. My wife's friends (who are either her work colleagues or her childhood mates) are my friends too. Lovely people and, I believe, genuine.
However....the masses.....aarrrrgghhhhhh.... and so on, like that. Aaaghh!
But yes, I know I am far too negative in, not only my writing on this platform, but, my day to day life here too.
Ok! So..... Goat Year Resolution coming up.......I must try to be more positive!
Thanks for this.
ScotsAlan:
I enjoy my BCD rants as well, but I would say you come out much more positive than negative Royce.
As for me, am perhaps a bit too positive. At least when it come to Government.
I do find it interesting that most of the foreigners I personally know see the current leadership of China in a positive light. Maybe the propaganda is working.
For the record, the foreigners I personally know who dismiss China out of hand are the people who would have no idea what the name of the current Prime Minister of the UK is. And they are Brits.
royceH:
Umm...Boris Someone, isn't it? Nah, only joking. I know who it is and, without being clued right up, I think his mob are doing jolly well. Suspect you might beg to differ, however.
I, for one, definitely do not think the current regime here are doing the right thing by the Chinese ppl. But then, you haven't yet met me personally.
Perhaps a conversation over any amount of cold beverages could be in our future?
Oh, I'm not a communist.
laowaigentleman:
Yes Alan, your views on the government of this county seem a little too naive, when you ought to know better,
I can tell you do and that you do too.
As I told you earlier, I am a socialist too. Unfortunately, it is your fellow socialist posts which provoke the most ire one occasion. It's nothing personal, I suppose the most galling aspect of them is that I always feel that you ought to know better and that your ideals are far nobler than what the dickheads here are pretending to aim toward.
Mauvais fois, Alan. Beware. haha
ScotsAlan:
Ah yes. To declare some as being naive. The bastion of the "I know better than you".
Care to declare why I am naive?
Or are you just so befuddled by my good arguements that you lower yourself to be a bully because you don't understand my words?
Go on, why am I naive?
I could counteract. You claim to know more. You claim to have studied my leftist posts. But yet I can't recall any of your your posts that have proclaimed your position as a communist. I can't recall any good spats with you.
Please correct me if I am wrong !!!!
All in fun dude
laowaigentleman:
I don't mean to impugn, mate, put it that way. You're a decent bloke who I have all of the time in the world for.
As for the naive baits; I can only say that they're intended as a compliment. There are plenty of fishermen about the lakes and shores of China who'll have you believe they're more adept to living life than you. Christ, they'll have me before you.
Hunan is beautiful. As for guangdong where all of the nouveau riche Chinnaminn and white trash pile up, no-one's impressed by your goldrush. In fact, we think you're quite sad...
laowaigentleman:
@scots, you're right. I'm not a proper communist but an anarcho-syndicalist.
I like reading what you say.
What ever leads to "men" like Mike having less power in their pocket, however late it takes their sexual partners to notice what douchebags they are.
laowaigentleman:
@scots.
Please excuse my later posts, I was three sheets to it last night.
I didn't mean to come across as a bully, I was just bored.
Enjoy your stay in hunan
meiduo:
you can always go back. Hupingshan in shimen is quite nice place,it's part of changde,people are very hospitable,you also can see some wild animals there in the mountain,and there's a nice temple in the mountain,i stayed there some days,i really want to go back again. I enjoyed quiet fenghuang last few days,i think there were less than 10 tourists at this time,its quite enjoyable!
laowaigentleman:
I think I will in the future. I'm in Hebei because of my girlfriend and I'll gladly move the Hunan tomorrow if she abruptly quit the school tomorrow.
Once she's done with study I'll marry her and possibly move to Changsha for good. It's much better with the MTR too.
There was a video onboard telling people not to take chickens on the train.
Hilarious
Oh yes the people who shit in the street are only in small pockets. The people cut in line are only a small percentage. Everyone of these types of people in every other country do the same exact things.
People in the countryside act nicer to your face. The percentage of people who are actually better maybe higher but...
laowaigentleman:
I was cut in front of on my way back to the fast train north at least seven times. Six times more than if I were boarding a train in Hebei.
I'm counting my blessings.
laowaigentleman:
Maybe a little, but I don't see just that alone as too big a deal.
Are you close to Zhuzhou, Hunan? Warning: 'This article is worrisome!'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/11416830/Inside-Chi...
icnif77:
I just came across the article, after I read your thread. New Chinese minister for environment is UK educated.
laowaigentleman:
Did his dad get him into Harrow using his guanxi?
Hopefully his mother doesn't poison their intermediary 
icnif77:
A month ago, I was getting Z visa in my home, counter person at Chinese Embassy asked me, if China is filthy, and what are the chances to clean it.
I suggested, China should get few NZealanders in every province, ('tie them down w/ chain' for 'escape prevention'), and listen 'how to clean the country'.
In Fuk., Xinjiang, they wash the roads twice a week, and in Jixian, Hebei, residents every evening drop household garbage on piles in few street corners. Morning crew sorts and burn all garbage next day.
Jixian residents never say 'bu zhi dao', but 'zhi bu dao'.
Apparently only city in China.
http://en.mercopress.com/2007/04/28/new-chinese-foreign-secretary-uk-educated-us-expert
when it comes to ignorance and shallowness, i don't think it can all be attributed to - as Billy Connolly would put it - the Volvo-driving cunts fucking things up for the rest of us. there is no delightfully eccentric upper class of professional tobogganists, there are no charmingly quirky peasants with strong and interesting culture. everyone has been influenced by confucian traditions and the oppressive regime. they all shun socially-relevant topics, they all copy, they're all obsessed with money and face. they're all crass and craven, they all drive Volvos so to speak.
laowaigentleman:
Haha! I hopw this topic's still floating around tomorrow. It's fun. Samsara was writing about Paradise Lost and liking Chinese complaisance and credulity to the heavenyl aspect of Milton's conception of the holy.
I am hoping to bait him to talk a little about Blake's Thel and some other aspects of romanticism, but I love the achetype of the tobogganist.
What do you do? Toboggan... Beats them all...
laowaigentleman:
Maybe it is the same piece of material but he was talking about how the working classes and the aristocracy just gel together nicely at community events and once the aspiration middle classes show up, it all turns to shit.
Billy is a god. I saw him live, front row, slightly off centre.
coineineagh:
Billy is in the newest Hobbit movie. I regognized his voice straight away. it was my favourite part of the movie, but there was nobody to share it with. it reminded me for a moment how alone you can be as the only westerner around. Even Dutch folk can half appreciate an appearance by a famous Scottish actor, but when i mentioned it to Chinese co-workers, i got a blank response.…
Hunan is a hell hole. If you thought Hunan was nice?? Your life must be even shittier than I thought. No wonder your so angry all the time.
Im not even trying to start shit. I officially pity you.
laowaigentleman:
There is a difference between ni shi and ni de shi.
This is what I find so fascinating about the Chinese in general. How they can elevate people above the level of the clearly retarded and still say that they're a civilization rather than a band of exploiters trying to take everyone else for a ride.
At least the rest of the world is waking up whilst you and your countertypes are trying to speculate on residential property, when the sensible result ought to say, "sorry sir, go home and get ready for your next hand, no-one else is impressed".
Now for the rest of you Chinese third parties, are you wondering why is it that the third parties of business are contracting? I can ask just as incredulously how on earth these kinds of people were able to expand in the first place.
Tragic.
I can;t wait to see you get replaced by a fifteen year old US drop out as whatever you say sure as hell ain't that compelling.
laowaigentleman:
Mike. You are Canadian. Canada is a developed country. Try to go home with your diction, syntax and collocation and I guarantee you'll be on the dole asap.
Don't talk too much Lucky Jim, the Chinese might see you for the cousin fucking wretch that you are.
mike695ca:
You have started your daily despair dive into the bottle i see.
ScotsAlan:
I would rather smile on the back of a bicyle in Hunan than cry in a BMW in Shenzhen...
ScotsAlan:
Same here. I am always inchoherant. With or without a bottle.
mike695ca:
Soooooo your saying that your incoherent all the time? Unlike me??? Thanks man!
laowaigentleman:
Idi Amin is wondering when his white monkey's ready to take him and Neil Heyward's kids over the border.
No-one with a mind is impressed by you, but we're pleased that you've given your kids the best they can look forward to, having inherited your shonky brain.
mike695ca:
Quick question. How old are you?? Either you make no sense or you are like 80. For realz, have you ever spoken to anyone before? Do they have people in NZ or just sheep?
laowaigentleman:
Mike doesn't need a bottle. He's simply a fucking idiot.
He is a business man
How many western fuckwits have turned out to be businessmen when their occupations have been requested.
C students work for B students, A students teach. As for D and E students, they came to China in the early 2000s talking bollocks like Mike.
As the place develops men like him will be seen for what they are, at least after some thick women get their lot out of the malls in Vancouver.
Thanks for keeping hope alive, you uneducated thick, braindead cunt.
ScotsAlan:
Why do you hate Hunan people mike?. They don't deserve it. Hunan people are the salt of the earth from the land of rice and fish.
mike695ca:
@Scots, because they suck. Guangdong could be damn near perfect but half the population is Hunan farmers crapping this place up to. The worst part is that Hunan is commonly regarded as the dump of China, yet they are proud of it. Like " yeah Hunan is awsome, totally better than Hubei". Good for you, your in the 6th step of hell instead of the 7th. Dont toot your own horn too much buddy. I think that all of the horrible things we hate about China boils down to Hunan people. ( In guangdong anyways) even when Cantonese do rude shit it can attributed to feeling like they have no choice. Theyll have to wait forever behind a row of Changsha grannies. At least Cantonese have an on/off switch. They can at least pretend to be polite.
laowaigentleman:
And Mike is the salt of what comes out of my arse when I take a shit on the western coastline where there aren't yet any toilets because people like Mike's relation's haven't got a monopoly over the shithouses when they're in the middle of their mutual stroking sessions.
mike695ca:
Just curious, what grades did you get? I didnt see " old ,drunk, angry New Zealander who never made anything of himself and hes not gonna take it anymore" on your little list.
laowaigentleman:
I can't wait to hear how your fellow Canadians would rank you having read your spelling and given consideration to the sentiments behind your supposed suffering.
I just hope you take the sheep to the edge of the cliff before penetrating it/them. It'll be waiting for its intellectual (you) to come home,
mike695ca:
Do you truly fail to see the humour in trying to call me low class while using language so crude your mother would beat you if she hadnt disowned you at birth already? Haha please tell me, at which vaulted institution did you learn such language?? Have you always spoken this way? Or did you pick it up trying to fit in with the other pan-handlers?? Yup in Canada i might" be on the dole" haha gramps. But the fact is im not. Im kinda rich. And you hate China because you cant make it work and they dont even offer you " the dole" . life isnt fair I guess. Or perhaps it is. Perhaps we are where we are for a reason.
ScotsAlan:
I can honestly say I have always found Hunan people to be ok. Compared to Cantonese they are polite. It must be a climate thing. I don't know. I can't figure out why you hate them so much. I am grasping at straws to understand.
mike695ca:
@scots, haha well i guess we must agree to disagree becausr I can not, for the life of me, understand how anyone could say Hunan people or more polite than the Cantonese. That sentence blew my mind. Your wifey is Cantonese!! Mind.Blown.
laowaigentleman:
Just nonsensical drivel. I hope all that all of the working people of Canada will carefully consider giving this guy any aid at all when he inevitably gets cancer from jumping around in East Asia acting like some kind of free spirit when he's just a piece of rubbish who should have never met the criteria to get in in the first place.
mike695ca:
How would I get cancer from travel?? If your referring to pollution, well sorry to tell ya pops, you are waaaay worse off then me. Haha and I speak drivel.
laowaigentleman:
Hunan people are infinitely better than inbred, cashed up Canadian fuckwits who can't spell and will do anything to feel superior despite their inability of even spell the most basic of words.
China must be filled with even more fuckwits who're living off their mums' and dad's back than you are to have any hope in this world.
Worthless, loud-speaking piece of trash.
ScotsAlan:
Yeah Mike. My wife, and family are Cantonese. But far west Cantonese.Their language is Cantonese, but, it's not. It's not GZ Cantonese. They are totally different from the Haka of SZ. I can't explain it. It's like describing me, a Scot, as a cockney, because I know what a dog and bone is. But I am not a cockney. GD is big. It's bigger than many Euro countries. So if even one provence has so many cultures and languages, how can you dismiss millions of people as being rubbish just because of their accident of birth? That's not fair dude.
mike695ca:
"China must be filled with even more fuckwits who're living off their mums' and dad's back than you are to have any hope in this world"- this makes zero sense. Please try again after you have finished beating off to my death.
mike695ca:
@scots, this hatred doesnt come from a singular encounter. It comes from nearly 8 years of coming across them. I have also been to many many towns and villages around Hunan. They are all poop. The common denominator? Hunan people. I am also aware that Guangdong is huge but I have never seen someone from say zhanjiang shit on the street. Or Shantou. Or meizhou. These places certainly arent Utopias. But the people are ten times better than Hunan none the less. Even more so once they move to say GZ or SZ. They all seem to have the ability to adapt. Where as Hunan people are totally oblivious and ignorant to the fact that they are not in the privacy of their own bathroom. I disagree with your other point as well. I think its totally fair to hate on a whole group. I acknowledge that there must be great Hunan people around. But when the numbers of garbage are so damn high, i think it becomes acceptable to refer to generalizations as truths. I try to treat everyone on a case by case basis. I havent come across a decent one yet.
laowaigentleman:
George Bernard Shaw said that you should never wrestle with a pig because you get dirty and the pig likes it.
He didn't live at the same time as The Situation.
Is your family name Sorentino by any chance?
laowaigentleman:
I guess in the future, I'm now justified in assuming that all Canadian people are vulgar, uneducated, thick, cashed-up inbreds, going by your reasoning about Hunan people.
mike695ca:
@laowai, congrats! That is the first time you have attempted to make a point. Yes if you want to hate on all Canadians because of me that is your prerogative. Doesnt effect me any. You are kind of missing the point. Just because I know you doesnt mean all New Zealanders are angry poor, lazy, worthless wastes of mass. I realize its just you. But its ok youll be dead soon. If im wrong, and your not a grandpa , well I see an aneurysm is your near future anyways, judging from how worked up you get.
laowaigentleman:
My prerogative now is to assume that Canadian logic professors are pretty shite too given how confident you are about being wise and knowledgeable when you're just a jumped up pleb.
mike695ca:
When have I ever claimed to be wise and knowledgeable??? The only thing I have evet claimed to know is that I am better than you. Hell everyone knows that.
laowaigentleman:
Sorry to burst your bubble but you aren't.
Try applying for ten different jobs in ten different countries and I think you'll find that in the majority of them, given your skill-set and education, you wind up well below the median income and you certainly won't be offered any positions of responsibility which require any skills.
The most pernicious invention in all of history was the spell checker. They need to be banned so men like you are exposed for what you are.
In a developed country with quality education, if you put out a memo without spending more time on checking it than writing it your employees would take the piss out of you.
mike695ca:
Ha! Funny how I keep getting high paying jobs while you toil away in mediocrity. That spelling has sure done you well! Life sure isnt fair huh?
laowaigentleman:
You only can only get them in China, which says everything about the Chinese commercial environment.
The amount of people I've seen yelling into Iphones and spitting out of the window of Mercedes at an intersection suggests that being "successful" in this place is a dubious honour to say the least.
I'm sure that if you went back to Canada you'd be filliting salmon or sweeping the road.
mike695ca:
And sorry to burst YOUR bubble my friend. But your entire existance has been a joke. Coming from someone who actually works for a living, with some of the largest companies in the world mind you, no one gives a flying fuck about spelling.Turns out the one thing going for you is useless! Real people care less about spelling and more about getting shit done. I have yet to read an email from customers about syntax haha. In fact the vast majority are from iphones while heading to a meeting. You have wasted your entire life. And its killing you now. Ive seen countless like you wasteing away convinced of your own greatness. Convinced you should be handed the presidency of a Fortune 500 company because your so damn smart yet when asked what you could actually bring any endeavor, your stuck on an overuse of the word "sycophant" and a "different perspective" haha. Your lot are endlessly enjoyable.
mike695ca:
If you could read you would know that my company is foreign owned. We just have a manufacturing plant here. It was these people back in North America that you are.convinced would laugh me out of the building that offered me this satisfying, high paid job. So yeah, theres that.
mike695ca:
Anyways, this is where I leave you my friend. I have to go check into my 5 star hotel now. You enjoy your 4th tier Hunan city!!!
laowaigentleman:
Pooh.
That's all I have to say about people like you. In fact, just going that far almost seems like I'm dignifying your drivel with a response.
I'll let your lot have all the rope you want.
laowaigentleman:
Just one last request.
Please tell me the names of these companies you're affiliated with? I am quite mesmerized by your brilliance and I would like to make a list so I can be reminded of how wonderful you and all the people who work at these places are.
dongbeiren:
Another round of you can't spell vs I have more money than you. I'm imagining Mike eating an overpriced hotel meal while Laowai plots Mike's death in a dark damp room in Hunan. Happy New Year folks. Oh I jest, cheers guys :).
icnif77:
I can never read long threads. Here, I need an assistant to separate all different characters.
royceH:
Oh....that's it?? Well....it looks like they've returned to their corners.... For the moment...
Anyone know what it was they were gabbing on about? Has there been a winner?
royceH:
Oh....that's it?? Well....it looks like they've returned to their corners.... For the moment...
Anyone know what it was they were gabbing on about? Has there been a winner?
royceH:
Oh....that's it?? Well....it looks like they've returned to their corners.... For the moment...
Anyone know what it was they were gabbing on about? Has there been a winner?
dongbeiren:
This round was a draw. The referee was distracted by fireworks.
laowaigentleman:
I broke my own promise replying to the guy.
I've got to drink less. Sorry for you unfortunate people who have to read it. He really pisses me off.
What a way to destroy the positive vibe on a New Year's day!
As I described him earlier: all the class of a superannuated whore stumbling into Buckingham Palace with a flagon of home brewed fortified wine under her arm.
I can't say I'm much better though. He really brings out the worst in people.
Robk:
@laowai - Hey now, let's not make this about nationalities. Mike is entitled to his opinion like anyone else. I personally haven't heard too many great things about Hunan people but then again... I haven't been there or personally met many for 8 years.
laowaigentleman:
I didn't mean to insult Canadian people, I was just using an argument of analogy to demonstrate the flaws in his reasoning.
My great uncle was a pilot in the Second World War. He was in the Canadian Airforce.
This is common with Kiwis. We all have family roots in an array of countries. It's part of the reason why nationalism has always seemed so absurd to me.
Nations are just psychological constructs drawn onto paper to me. - Omitting the idea of governance in my outlook, of course. 
And lets not forget it was a small village that voted an 8 year old out because he contracted AIDS
laowaigentleman:
I didn't go to a village. It was a fourth tier city.
Come on, man. I'm not that wet!
Sometimes going with the smaller cities is a better option. I live in a Tier 4-5 city and I have noticed some cool changes. People are getting used to foreigners more so that they stop staring and whispering quite as much BUT there is still enough of a novelty factor that you can get away with things.
You can get special treatment and you stand out. However, a dampening has also slightly occurred as quite a few foreigners exploit this and act like total shit heads. This one guy I know in the city can't figure out why Chinese parents won't leave their kids with him for more than a few lessons. Maybe it is because he smokes during classes, argues with his wife, dresses like he doesn't give a shit and doesn't want to make money. Guys like him are making it worse for other foreigners in China.
I try to give him advice but how do you convince an idiot that they are acting like an idiot?
This city is generally decent, people are kind of dumb and manners aren't too high but I see a positive change in many little things and I think foreigners have played a large part in that (either internally or externally).
I hear mixed reviews about Hunan and Hebei. I always hear bad things about Henan.
Anyway, go where ever makes you happier. Everyone has their priorities.
laowaigentleman:
I met an American guy who had taught in Wuhan. He was so negative whenever he spoke about the place. I haven't been to Wuhan, but I've passed through on the train numerous times. Last time I went through it looked quite nice.
The American guy was a chronic complainer. I might be opening my self up to charges of anti-semitism, but I'll say it anyway, this guy was a stereotype. He never had anything good to say about anything. Unfortunately as expats, our scope is limited to what people tell us about a place. The only way to really know is to see for yourself.
If people tell you negative things about Hunan, it is probably because they are sensitive to manners. I've learned to ignore the rudeness generally, but I did get the feeling bad behaviour was slightly less prevalent - perhaps due to the sense of community the people there had. It might have been improved by the fact that it was Chinese New Year too.
I've been to Changsha many times and had a blast drinking beer and eating their barbeque. I ate snake and lobster, both of which are very tasty.
You need to drink beer with it because nothing else puts out the fire adequately. The spices bring in this fantastic flavour which is quickly taken over by a wave of extreme hotness. Water definitely won't cover the taste, neither does cola even.
Here's a thought: there's definitely a generation gap in China. Cities like Changsha are filled with young people, unlike the tier one places. The younger people have much better manners than the older folks.
Changsha doesn't have the influence of foreigners that you've just described to me, in other words, they're pretty good (but by no means perfect) on their own. The difference is that Hunan has its own vibrant and authentic culture whereas the coastal cities have thrown it all away in the pursuit of growth and wealth. I think of Wordsworth: "we have given our hearts away, a sordid boon".
I've been reading a lot about the Industrial Revolution in England. I'd love to discuss parallels between China and the social and cultural upheavals of the industrialization of England in particular. There's plenty of literature on this obviously, but maybe not so much written on contemporary China.
I just moved out of Hebei, so I feel your pain at having had to live there.
