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Q: Mass exodus at training schools?
So, as some of you may know, I do some side work as a recruiter. Since early July, I've been SWAMPED with requests begging me to find teachers for the schools. Schools who once had 3 or more teachers are down to ZERO. Many are getting insanely desperate.
Have the July 1st laws caused this exodus? Anyone see anything similar? Looks like salaries may end up rising for qualified individuals.
10 years 41 weeks ago in Business & Jobs - China
WOuldn't have guessed you to be a recruiter. I thought recruiters would be more.....you know. 
I'm broke .... Mr. recruiter.... need a job........ need 10,000RMB , I have 20 hours available/week and I am willing to walk for a maximum of 30 minutes from my current residence........... please investigate my options for me....... willing to give you a full month of my salary once you have found me a job that meets my requirements.
If there are no positions available...... I understand and will send you a cheque from my bank in Nigeria for your efforts ..... how much do you want for your efforts?
how many zeroes?
icnif77:
Today, there is Nigerian president on offical visit to China.
Hulk:
Ha. I don't take salary from the foreign teacher. The school pays me a one-time fee. 
one great thing about the new visa laws, less racism. i actually got a job offer from a uni in beijing. and i'm gonna grab a gas mask and take it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hulk:
Go for it, man! I noticed more schools are more open to darker shades of humans now. Gives me some hope...
Hopefully this will cause salary offerings to rise. That is if the schools can into capitalism.
My understanding (and I don't like online rumors about Visas) but quite seriously the sudden dip in numbers is:
- Processing.
As we all know, if there are new rules this brings the offices to a near halt as nobody wants to stamp anything until hours and days of debate ensue and ... well most of you know already.
So while most foreign teachers might already be approved by now - or even on their way to China - they are waiting.
I'm not sure about the darkie-factor you guys are on about but presumably the new standards apply to all skin tones.
BTW: I don't know but Ive been told that there was already an 'exodus' (just declining numbers) BEFORE any new Visa rules?
JayKnox:
Carl,
Do you suppose the declining numbers of foreign english teachers (prior to 2013) might be due to a little slowdown in China's growth combined with a slight upturn in English speaking countries (itself a combo of slight economic recovery from 2008's crashes + a retiring 'baby boomer' demo).
Of course those haven't been dramatic differences but it seems like enough in combination to make a difference of maybe 5 or 8%
(someone told me that was the rough decline last year?)
I'm also agreeing there must be some factor in higher standards eliminating some number of foreign english teachers who foresaw some problems and decided to bail.
But did they even know standards were changing? I only caught a rumor around March.
(not that I'm paying big attention) but it seems like it was 2012 we saw the decline?
a lot of schools are trying to teach english without a foreigner but the parents are not buying the sales pitch.
No kidding amb, have you guys seen the resent job post, NON NATIVE SPEAKERS NEEDED, IF YOU LOOK LIKE A WESTERNER WITHOUT MUCH OF AN ACCENT WE CAN HELP YOU, or something like that, desperate times when you go from racist, to pucking racist
The problems have to do with both the E.S.L. culture and the new laws in general. I have met many teachers who are tired of being lied to, scammed and cheated, and they are bailing out. South Africans especially who are surprised that they are not considered native speakers now.
My previous employer contacted me twice early in the morning to ask me to teach their summer camp. They had promised the parents that they would have an American teacher; the problem was that they made the promise before getting the teacher. They could not find one until I helped them out.
Mind you this is the same school that refused to hire me again instead opting to first hire a younger American guy and then a British guy- both who fit the foreign teacher stereotype better than me. They left after one-year. I happen to look Portuguese/Italian, so I am not as high in the desirable range. After being at my present school for over two years now, they keep asking me to go back. Why did you get rid of me in the first place If I was such "a great teacher?"
Hulk:
Side note... Many people from Portugal seem to have a native-level command of English.
JayKnox:
Nobody is asking for 'The Queens English' but South African English is a peculiar dialect sometimes incomprehensible to most native English speakers. So, from that perspective I wouldn't pay as much to have children speaking a difficult dialect of English.
Now.. you could see it this way - suppose I was an ESL student who's planning to do business with South Africa? Then I'd pay MORE to ensure I had a proper South African English Dialect Teacher!
Obviously, I'd pay less for an American or Canadian since I wouldn't be learning proper South African.
Duly note: The Sushi Restaurant here hired Filipino chefs and realized they were not nearly as popular as the Chinese chefs that the customers thought were Japanese.
How can they implement those new laws, when China actually needs 400.000 English-teachers per year ? They must be crazy...... but that's their surreal approach probably.
No wonder there is an Exodus of teachers since the 1st-of-July hangman arrived, and subsequently, an "EXODUS" of English language skills will follow..... welcome back to stone-age, China 
China is now building universities in other countries for its students, the first being in Malaysia, the second in England. Two others are just starting development in New York and Australia. They figure it is better to have the students learn in foreign countries than in China.
China is also cutting out English as a requirement in Chinese universities. They are concentrating more on skills than English within China's borders.
JayKnox:
So this would increase demand for foreign english teachers in China right?
Traveler:
Jay: No. The idea is to have far less foreign English teachers in China, and a hybrid western-Chinese education system at Chinese universities outside China.
Universities outside China would attract properly qualified teachers, and cut out most of the corruption that occurs with western education programs in China. Theoretically, the students will get an internationally recognised qualification from a Chinese university.
University of Xiamen is in Malaysia, University of Zhejiang in England, and University of Sichuan is about to start sending students to Australia. These universities will also be available to local students, with English language instruction, and operating (hopefully) under local laws.
JayKnox:
I'm not trying to dump on your points but I'd predict this much..
- Chinese Universities overseas are for relatively privileged families, many of whom can already send their kids overseas.
- Take the current situation here. Chinese students arrived at our college. They can take English classes. There are probably thousands of Colleges and Universities around the world who take Chinese students today.
- Many of the students who arrive here had made a point of taking lessons from (specifically) foreign English teachers in China. For the obvious reason they wanted to be prepared w/ English AND Foreigners.
- Interestingly, the Chinese students who arrive at our college make almost no progression in English. In fact, I will swear they LOSE their English skills. Which sounds strange until you realize they dorm together (share apartments) attend together, stay together, sleep together.
- Although this is just a single example - it turned out there was a massive corruption scandal with our Chinese students that somehow involves the head of the school in China pocketing somewhere around 200,000 still unaccounted for dollars. (maybe a million RMB).
- It becomes MORE EXPENSIVE to hire English teachers overseas. A proper English teacher in England is going to be looking for something nearing 60-80 thousand dollars a year - with all manner of benefits, pensions, insurance etc whatnot.
Compare that to lets say 24 thousand dollars (and probably little or no benefit packages) for a Foreign English Teacher in China.
And then I suppose just in scale - 3 Universities (even huge ones) becomes a drop in a bucket with 1.4 Billion people.
And for that matter - all those kids who cannot go overseas may very well decide they need a good school at home with low prices so they can compete.
Anyways, not being a dick. Just saying that the result ends up with the same or - if anything - more demand for foreign English teachers in China.
Traveler:
China has realised that the foreign programs it is running in China are not worth anything, and the students know that as well. Many of the "foreign degrees" earned in China are not recognised in western countries, because of the rampant corruption and unqualified teachers presenting the courses.
China allows no transparency in the way the course are run, so western governments just refuse to recognise the diplomas and degrees. In fact, Australia has forced the closure of over 500 private schools in Australia that were in such joint ventures with China, based on the corruption and unqualified teachers. Other countries are doing the same.
At present, universities in western countries cannot satisfy all the Chinese students that want to study in the west, so China's intention to simply build more is welcome internationally.
You fail to look at the big picture. I have named three universities that have pioneered this program, and you see the entire program as simply three universities. In fact, there are dozens planned, each with capacities of 5-10,000 students, or more. China hopes that at least 50% of the students in each will be Chinese. With regards to the Australian one, they already have the initial 500 Chinese students selected, with little problem, before construction is even complete.
As China moves away from an export economy to domestic consumption (it hopes), the need for English language and foreign trade will be significantly reduced. Therefore, the need for English teachers will become a fraction of what it was in the "old" economy. This will also be the case as China enters recession or economic collapse.
Just as other countries have previously opened campuses of their universities in China and elsewhere, China sees it as an important sign of recognition that they can open more universities in other countries than any other country on earth. It is important to China to always be the biggest and best (even if only in their own minds).
As with all of China's overly ambitious plans, which have all caused disaster for the country, there is skepticism about these foreign universities as well. However, with western management and standards, they might possibly have a chance to succeed. So long as China doesn't try to change the rules in other countries.
JayKnox:
Okay but all of my points still stand and mainly:
- Opening Universities overseas would (if anything) increase demand for foreign English teachers inside China to prepare the students for.. well going overseas where they will need some English to get started (or should in theory).
But even if that doesn't happen - we need to have a mass exodus of students going overseas and so go the English teachers overseas as well.
We'd need to see a significant number here and I think we are talking about what .. 350,000 students going overseas?
Increasing by 50,000?
And just another issue but I would suppose the new overseas mega-Unis are attended by the same students now in all the other colleges and Unis?
In other words, if there are 500 PRC students at (some example) The University of Toronto - they are the same students who go to (example) PRC University next door?
Anyways, there has to be other explanations for that 8% drop in 2012 (before these new visa rules were unveiled) and I'd strongly suggest:
- Slight dip in Chinas economy
- Slight upturn in Australia, Canada, USA
In Canada we have an interesting situation - for years now its been very very difficult for young people to get teaching.
(you'd prepare for a decade as an on-call sub),
however,
a big demo shift is happening starting about now and for 5 years - a large block of the 'Baby Boomers' are retiring from teaching.
Like a dam breaking - all of a sudden it's entirely possible for a young guy or gal with a fresh bachelors paper in hand to get an actual job. With actual potential to make a living and even be full-time before they're 35!
Anyways, I'm not even sure why anyone cares so much about this. Seems like a few on these forums are excited about the idea that 'they got theirs first' and somehow now they will enjoy.. what I don't know?
esl teachers needed in the us arab countries the price is rising while americans go elsewhere south africans are actually excepted as native speakers eastern europeans say their from the us its comical
JayKnox:
Good point and I've been hearing about that - I think the guy from MiddleKingdomLife has actually left China for some Arab country (where he boasts higher pay, respect etc) and I've also been hearing the Philippines, Vietnam (other SE Asian) are now emerging and asking for foreign English teachers more and more.
sam239:
Not in the Phillippines, they have plenty of domestic fluent speakers. In fact they are very commonly employed by Thai schools, who typically have Thai English teachers, Filipino teachers, and a few western teachers (for the status/image that gives). I hear Myanmar and Vietnam are both opening up and demand for foreign English teachers will only grow in those places.
icnif77:
I met FT from 'USA' at New Oriental Summer Camp in Nanjing.
Me: 'I am Non-native teacher. I hold EU passport. Where do you come from?'
FT: 'USA.'
Few days later, I spoke to the Camp's manager at the NO office, and I couldn't remember FT's name, so I said: '...you know, teacher from USA'.
Manager: 'Who? We don't have American teacher at the Camp!'
Me: 'Black dude????'
Manager: 'He's from Gana, Africa!'
I understand, FT's lying to the students, but we are coworkers, we share teaching ideas, and lies.
Not just English teachers. People in industry are leaving in droves too.
i dont understand why these people leave anyway, you can get a masters degree in computer science from georgia tech online , the 3rd best engineering school in america, for 7000 dollars, and the course is all online.
the internet will kill these universities just when everybody wants to build more, some one is late to the party again.
sam239:
No, the good universities will thrive, the internet will only put the bad universities out of business (hopefully, but when billions of dollars are at stake they're going to fight internet education). Employers are already realizing that many degrees are worth less than if the person had spent the time gaining actual skills, hence enrollment in many subjects such as MBA are steadily on the decline in the US.
bill8899:
Tryin to figure why this got 2 thumbs down ...
anyway yes I take classes online - prereqs for a masters, so like you say why go abroad?
I think the key here is many Chinese people want their children to go overseas (aka GTFO of China) and education is the obvious path. If they could get work overseas they would do that. Education is the ticket out of the country.
every country is now looking for esl teachers including the us many universities are hiring and esl schools are popping up paying 20 to 25 an hour to meet the demand of foreign students
Traveler:
In Australia, ESL teachers get A$50-90 (RMB 280-510) an hour, but the schools have unreasonable conditions. They insist a teacher must be qualified, and must be a native or near-native speaker.
Ok after clearing up that mess, I'm now writing a notice about this issue. Please stay tuned...
