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Q: Is this our final hour?
I wanted to write about how great a city Chongqing is. If you can accept that Shanghai is a child of Western influence, then Chongqing is a Chinese Shanghai. In my few days there, I saw very few foreigners. What I did see delighted my senses. Chongqing appears to get it right - clean streets, polite and law abiding citzens, modern facilities, and great food - without the apparent drawbacks that we all so commonly encounter in China. I wanted to write about this, that is, until I got a closer look. Now, instead of an endorsement, I am writing a dirge.
To be fair, as a foreigner, our viewpoint of the Chinese world is very often skewed. As we all know, China isn't kind and open to outsiders. Those who do seek us out for friendship usually have some ulterior motive. English, though taught from middle school until graduation, is scantily understood or spoken. That's because spoken English isn't on the gaokao. Neither are life skills, like social interaction, problem solving, consideration of others, ethics and personal responsibility. These highly valued aspects of Western culture (and most of the rest of the world) are swept under the rug in Chinese society. Still, under the beautiful skin of Chongqing, I eventually saw the same ugly underbelly that is so obvious to foreign eyes.
It suddenly dawned on me: This is my graduation. My education in China has been completed. I came here to get a closer look at a "rising power". What I discovered is that China never took off. It was a sham, a mirage, a lie. The sad fact is China copied the shiny parts of Western society, but omitted the ideals and principles that made the glitter possible. And while the West is no longer a shining example of order and progress in this world (and perhaps it never was), at least it understood that greatness is based on principles and there are no shortcuts to that end.
Which brings me to the title of this post. As we stand at the feet of a crumbling giant that is the established order of things, I see no successor. On one hand, a decadent fading light. In the other, a soulless shadow of a society. Could this be our final hour? This isn't meant to be a condemnation of China. To the contrary, I am mourning her, because in China I see our future. I see a world that would rather appear to be strong than actually be strong. Why work hard, when we can copy or cheat others? Why bother with craftmanship, when it will be torn down in a decade or less? Why have principles, when it is much easier to keep up the appearances? And in the morning light after a drunken night full of deception, a question comes: Is this what we have become?
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I couldn't agree with you more.
But I think our downfall is not necessarily the cheaters, money chasers and shallow people, but rather the well meaning idiots who believe in the fallacy that all men are equal, thus dragging everyone down to the cesspit of the lowest common denominator, where mediocrity is encouraged to make everyone feel at home, and excellence is eschewed as white privilege.
kasuka91:
Get over this. Nearly every other comment you leave sooner or later zones in on race. From what I remember, you're from South Africa? I mean, looking at the history of that country I would think that it was quite obvious that white privilege existed there, that was the basis for the de juro apartheid system which existed from the mid to the late twentienth century and the de facto apartheid which was in place prior to that.
It just comes across as if you're implying that white privilege doesn't exist, which I find difficult to comprehend considering that you've probably spent a big part of your life in SA. Anyone who has been there just...can't deny its existence. Just seems crazy.
kasuka91:
"but rather the well meaning idiots who believe in the fallacy that all men are equal." Like...are you a white supremacist or sth? That paragraph could be read in that way?
yongge:
See what I mean? You probably haven't been to South Africa before and after the black government took over to see how a place can change when left to the stupid to govern. But is just a microcosm of what is happening to the world today. See what' s already happening in Europe.
As for white supremacist, I wouldn't call myself that, I actually have great tolerance for most people from most races. But I have lived and worked on four continents and have opinions about people, maybe you want to call it stereotypes, which are based on real life, not watching TV or reading articles on the internet. And no, I do not deny white privilege, neither am I ashamed by it. It was made possible by white people, for white people. Why can't other races do the same? Or are they not equal.
kasuka91:
Yes, I worked in South Africa three years ago on an internship. I was staying in Cape Town.
And yes, in many ways South Africa has gotten a lot worse for people of all races, poor Blacks in particular. I would put PART of this down to growing pains, in consideration of the fact that it's only been 21 years since apartheid ended. Also, things could be a lot worse, I definitely wouldn't say that the Black-run government has completely squandered the country's resources and potential.
You say that the white race in some ways earned this privilege. While I can see where you're coming from, it wasn't necessarily the white race as a collective per say. It was normally a bunch of rich, white, middle-class, typically protestant males who did all the work; that excludes alot of people. And that's the issue with white privilege, or western privilege or male privilege, it's a form of privilege that is bestowed upon people by accident of birth, it's not earned. You could have been born a different colour and have the same talents and abilities and still end up being in a very different place to where you are now, and it's this which needs to end.
silverbutton1:
" ...but rather the well meaning idiots who believe in the fallacy that all men are equal" I like to look at it this way. All humans are created equal, but are not born equal.
RiriRiri:
So how does white privilege work exactly? Is there a member card or something? I didn't receive mine so I just wondered.
Should people feel sorry their European ancestors collectively decided at some point in history to pull their fingers out of their asses and work towards questioning themselves, others, listen to worthy people, then evolve, create and ultimately transmit their legacy and the mindset that allowed it?
Should I feel sorry in, say, China if my life is easier than the nong next door at least on some aspects simply because when people see me they expect a civilized individual with self respect where locals struggle with spacial awareness and their kids' colon going loose?
And by the way, I have seen my share of true racists in my life, do you know what they had in common? None were white.
Yeah, sure, that's just some earned privilege. Right. So where's my membership card?
kasuka91:
"Should people feel sorry their European ancestors collectively decided at some point in history to pull their fingers out of their asses and work towards questioning themselves, others, listen to worthy people, then evolve, create and ultimately transmit their legacy and the mindset that allowed it?"
Two things:
- It was your European ancestors...not you. You're deriving benefits from sth you didn't really achieve on your own, kind of like how someone uses their inheritance money to get ahead by funding a venture, or travelling or whatever it may be. Noone's saying that there's anything wrong in that, you don't have to feel guilty about it, but at the same time, don't go around lecturing the rest of us penniless fools about how you got by on good ol' hard work and grit, that's not the entire story. Acknowledge your privilege and how it may have given you an advantage in life.
- History is a complex thing, there's no ultimate truth. So while your comment hits on some good points, it's only one out of the many perspectives regarding Western history and culture. It's not as simple as that.
Also, why does everyone get so defensive about this white privilege thing? As a Black male who was born to a lower-middle class (but not working class) family in England, I don't feel a way about acknowledging the fact that privileges in the form of me being born male, in a relatively wealthy country to a solid, closely knit family have helped me get by in many ways. Nevertheless, it's because I acknowledge this that I don't attempt to judge people who come from a different background to me and may have not had these privileges in accordance with my experiences and values. I don't think that it is healthy, with it being an approach deeply lacking in empathy and compassion.
yongge:
Silverbutton, there is your mistake, and this is what I am talking about. All men are not born equal, it is in the genes. Some are smarter than others. The less intelligent ones breed more and spread their genes to the point where those with the smarter genes are overwhelmed by those with lesser genes, it is simple maths. The problem is that they struggle to make it on their own, therefore have to blame everyone except themselves for their incompetence - racism, colonialism, white privilege, bla, bla, bla, bla, and play on the conscience of poor suckers who still believe in the noble savage and equality BS.
kasuka91:
@yongge Do you have any evidence at hand to support this assertion? Particularly with regards to the idea of intelligence (in what form?) being passed down by genes..
xinyuren:
yonge, rarely do I get to hear such rubbish outside th Chinese. Your belief in the fallacy that anyone, regardless of their intelligence or race, is qualified to govern has left you feeling too smug. Let me guess, you are a gene scientist, right? No? Well you must be some type of scientist. No? Ah, then the true answer is you're just some guy in China with some silly ideas without any science to back it up.
RiriRiri:
Really? My ancestor's inherited privilege?
You know, I'm a dad of a 3 months old daughter now.
Because I am trying to provide her with what she does need, which is a family with a structure and helping parents, I have significantly sacrificed on my own leisure time. My wife has put a pretty lucrative job on stand by too. We have organized our lifestyle so our daughter could get the best environment possible and we sure intend to keep doing that (and that's another ton of sacrifices ahead) because that's how a children can grow into a self-confident, mature adult capable of making their own choices. That's how my parents rose me and that's how my grandparents rose my parents.
We could have also chosen easier alternatives, like dump her at the grandparents. Sure would have been much easier and we would get to enjoy our evenings and weekends.
But we didn't, because I'd like her to eventually inherit my White Privilege membership card. That very one you get out of thin air.
Maybe some people may want to introvert on the way they prepare the future before calling in some deterministic bullshit. As I said, the only racist people I ever met were insecure non-whites. Time to cut the crap on that too.
yongge:
@ kasuka Have you ever heard about eugenics? Do a search and read up, there is plenty of information that might leave you shocked.
@xinyren, no, I am not a gene scientist, but I am not stupid either and do not accept everything the media and politicians spoon feed us. In the light of your original post I find your personal attack a bit strange and would have thought that you of all people would have understood better where I come from. I am not a twenty something graduate who found his first job in China and have idealistic views of the world. I am highly educated, no thanks to white privilege, but to hard work, and have been around the block and the world a few times. I think for myself, even if it means going against the stream.
Let me clarify my standpoint again. While I do believe in the inequality of people, and this comes from personal research and experience, I do firmly believe in the EQUALITY OF TREATMENT OF ALL. I treat ALL people with respect, until they prove they are not worthy of it., and I think I am more tolerant of and sensitive to cultural differences than most You do not need to believe people to be equal to treat them equally. BTW, if you look at all the humanitarian efforts in the world, isn't that an acceptance that some are less equal and can't fend for themselves? Isn't that born from a sense of superiority and responsibility to take care of the lesser ones? Isn't that what seperates us - the ability to have compassion and care for others less fortunate? Unfortunately this is being exploited by them, trying to make us feel guilty sorry to be white. Well, I am not.
kasuka91:
@yongge Eugenics? Ahhh, let the ramble into pseudo-science begin.
kasuka91:
@RiriRiri Read through my response again carefully, particularly with regards to the inheritance money example given. While I generally agree with the contents of alot of your posts, I feel that you get it wrong here, and throw up a strawman in the form of how you approach life's challenges vis-a-vis Chinese locals. Also, please refrain from tooting your own horn. At the end of the day, while it will give you a sense of superiority and make you feel better, it does nothing to actually help you in improving yourself. Just saying...
xinyuren:
yonge, I have a problem with your use of the term "inequality of people", as if you are in a position to determine a person's worth. People have different abilities, talents, tendacies and weaknesses. You apparently feel you have the ability to qualify them by your own standards. This really irks me. In the end, NOONE is qualified to wield power. We are all enept. Treating everyone equally and with dignity is not a concept that springs from feelings of superiority, but rather from acknowledgement that we all are painfully inadequate. Your comment about white people for white people and why cant other races do it takes the cake. Do what? Destroy the environment and invade their neighbors? The state of the world today is proof that all men are are inadequate to this task. I have no opinion about white privilege, but your posts reek of white supremacy. This is from the viewpoint of a black American.
yongge:
Those who are the most insecure are the ones who shout the most for equality, and it is easy to see who they are. You said it yourself that everyone is different, that means unequal. Some are just better at some things than others. Just accept it and get on with life. Don't let it become a stumbling block and something you can use to blame others instead of your own inadequacy Does being a Black American make you special? Why aren;t you just an American?.
kasuka91:
@yongge All I know is that you're a random foreigner living in China who doesn't believe in the full equality of human beings and is a proponent of the study of eugenics. This tells me enough..
xinyuren:
yonge, I doubt you even know the meaning of "unequal". In this context, it has nothing to do with different. Your argument is coming apart because you have a very weak basis. It gets even weaker when you try to bring genes into it. Put down your copy of Redneck Monthly. It doesn't constitute an education nor scientific research. And you were the first to bring one's race into the issue (while denigrating others). Does that make you special? I believe you would say yes. I agree with kasuka. You're just some random expat with some deluded ideas about science
yongge:
I agree with kasuka too. At least I have a viewpoint, deluded or not. Cheers mate
silverbutton1:
"" ...but rather the well meaning idiots who believe in the fallacy that all men are equal" I like to look at it this way. All humans are created equal, but are not born equal."" Let me expand my comment (Sorry I thought it was more or less understood). All humans are created equal in the eyes of God (according to many who study Biblical scripture, but also according to the US Declaration of Independence). All humans arent born equal, as it can clearly been seen in the socio-economic structure of civilization. Only a few are born with silver spoons in their mouths, while many are born poor.
yongge:
Silver, you are getting closer to my point. Yes, from a religious point all are equal, and from a socio-economical point there is great inequality, but it comes to the question why? Forget about those born in wealth, they have it made for them. Why can some of those born in poverty rise above their circumstances and not have to resort to crime or wait from handouts? Because they are smarter. They were born smarter, it is in their genes. So when I am saying men are not equal, I mean not equal in terms of intelligence, and those with higher intelligence will rise above their circumstances, no matter what, while those with lower intelligence will forever hold their hands out and blame everyone else except themselves for their situation. I hope we can end this discussion, as I do not want to be called a white supremacist again, which I am certainly not. Hell, I am in China and kind of like the fact that race isn't really a factor, because everyone is the same
kasuka91:
Financial, social and cultural capital are still all factors which have an influence on one's socio-economic prospects. These factors can operate and thrive regardless of whether everyone is the same in the racial sense.
So @yongge everyone is not the same here, China has one of the highest rates of income inequality in the world and is a country where close to 90% of the country's rich have a relative in government. Some people, whether it's race or family connections, or pure luck are just born with a head-start in life.
The world is capitalist and property is theft - intelligence and success through social mobility are not synonymous. To me, your thinking comes across as lazy and only scratches on the surface, masked in many different assumptions and ignorance. Ever heard of a book called "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell?
Furthermore, how many people do you actually know that were born poor (and by poor, I mean in the relative sense) but became rich? Or even middle class? I can't think of many..yongge:
kasuka,please stop the personal namecalling, or is this how you have a discussion when somebody do not agree with you?
Sorry, I should have said in China everyone is in the same boat. The smart ones are the ones that use their connections, be it right or not. I have met some pretty smart people in China, but also many more stupid ones. But rising from poverty is all relative, what is considered to be rich for one might be poor for another. There are smart genes in every race group, some just have it more than others, But the scary part is that the average intelligence of the world is decreasing, because the ones that can least afford it, have the most kids. Maybe the Chinese have seen this coming a long time ago.
As for knowing people who rose from poverty, in spite of socio-economic challenges, maybe our worlds and life experience are totally different. I know plenty, that's why I stand by my point of view that the smart will be successful, if not, some of their descendants will.
kasuka91:
@yongge I'm not name calling, I'm just criticizing your way of thinking and logic, which I backed up with my reasoning. A lot of your assertions are somewhat based on blanket statements.
I couldn't agree with you more.
But I think our downfall is not necessarily the cheaters, money chasers and shallow people, but rather the well meaning idiots who believe in the fallacy that all men are equal, thus dragging everyone down to the cesspit of the lowest common denominator, where mediocrity is encouraged to make everyone feel at home, and excellence is eschewed as white privilege.
kasuka91:
Get over this. Nearly every other comment you leave sooner or later zones in on race. From what I remember, you're from South Africa? I mean, looking at the history of that country I would think that it was quite obvious that white privilege existed there, that was the basis for the de juro apartheid system which existed from the mid to the late twentienth century and the de facto apartheid which was in place prior to that.
It just comes across as if you're implying that white privilege doesn't exist, which I find difficult to comprehend considering that you've probably spent a big part of your life in SA. Anyone who has been there just...can't deny its existence. Just seems crazy.
kasuka91:
"but rather the well meaning idiots who believe in the fallacy that all men are equal." Like...are you a white supremacist or sth? That paragraph could be read in that way?
yongge:
See what I mean? You probably haven't been to South Africa before and after the black government took over to see how a place can change when left to the stupid to govern. But is just a microcosm of what is happening to the world today. See what' s already happening in Europe.
As for white supremacist, I wouldn't call myself that, I actually have great tolerance for most people from most races. But I have lived and worked on four continents and have opinions about people, maybe you want to call it stereotypes, which are based on real life, not watching TV or reading articles on the internet. And no, I do not deny white privilege, neither am I ashamed by it. It was made possible by white people, for white people. Why can't other races do the same? Or are they not equal.
kasuka91:
Yes, I worked in South Africa three years ago on an internship. I was staying in Cape Town.
And yes, in many ways South Africa has gotten a lot worse for people of all races, poor Blacks in particular. I would put PART of this down to growing pains, in consideration of the fact that it's only been 21 years since apartheid ended. Also, things could be a lot worse, I definitely wouldn't say that the Black-run government has completely squandered the country's resources and potential.
You say that the white race in some ways earned this privilege. While I can see where you're coming from, it wasn't necessarily the white race as a collective per say. It was normally a bunch of rich, white, middle-class, typically protestant males who did all the work; that excludes alot of people. And that's the issue with white privilege, or western privilege or male privilege, it's a form of privilege that is bestowed upon people by accident of birth, it's not earned. You could have been born a different colour and have the same talents and abilities and still end up being in a very different place to where you are now, and it's this which needs to end.
silverbutton1:
" ...but rather the well meaning idiots who believe in the fallacy that all men are equal" I like to look at it this way. All humans are created equal, but are not born equal.
RiriRiri:
So how does white privilege work exactly? Is there a member card or something? I didn't receive mine so I just wondered.
Should people feel sorry their European ancestors collectively decided at some point in history to pull their fingers out of their asses and work towards questioning themselves, others, listen to worthy people, then evolve, create and ultimately transmit their legacy and the mindset that allowed it?
Should I feel sorry in, say, China if my life is easier than the nong next door at least on some aspects simply because when people see me they expect a civilized individual with self respect where locals struggle with spacial awareness and their kids' colon going loose?
And by the way, I have seen my share of true racists in my life, do you know what they had in common? None were white.
Yeah, sure, that's just some earned privilege. Right. So where's my membership card?
kasuka91:
"Should people feel sorry their European ancestors collectively decided at some point in history to pull their fingers out of their asses and work towards questioning themselves, others, listen to worthy people, then evolve, create and ultimately transmit their legacy and the mindset that allowed it?"
Two things:
- It was your European ancestors...not you. You're deriving benefits from sth you didn't really achieve on your own, kind of like how someone uses their inheritance money to get ahead by funding a venture, or travelling or whatever it may be. Noone's saying that there's anything wrong in that, you don't have to feel guilty about it, but at the same time, don't go around lecturing the rest of us penniless fools about how you got by on good ol' hard work and grit, that's not the entire story. Acknowledge your privilege and how it may have given you an advantage in life.
- History is a complex thing, there's no ultimate truth. So while your comment hits on some good points, it's only one out of the many perspectives regarding Western history and culture. It's not as simple as that.
Also, why does everyone get so defensive about this white privilege thing? As a Black male who was born to a lower-middle class (but not working class) family in England, I don't feel a way about acknowledging the fact that privileges in the form of me being born male, in a relatively wealthy country to a solid, closely knit family have helped me get by in many ways. Nevertheless, it's because I acknowledge this that I don't attempt to judge people who come from a different background to me and may have not had these privileges in accordance with my experiences and values. I don't think that it is healthy, with it being an approach deeply lacking in empathy and compassion.
yongge:
Silverbutton, there is your mistake, and this is what I am talking about. All men are not born equal, it is in the genes. Some are smarter than others. The less intelligent ones breed more and spread their genes to the point where those with the smarter genes are overwhelmed by those with lesser genes, it is simple maths. The problem is that they struggle to make it on their own, therefore have to blame everyone except themselves for their incompetence - racism, colonialism, white privilege, bla, bla, bla, bla, and play on the conscience of poor suckers who still believe in the noble savage and equality BS.
kasuka91:
@yongge Do you have any evidence at hand to support this assertion? Particularly with regards to the idea of intelligence (in what form?) being passed down by genes..
xinyuren:
yonge, rarely do I get to hear such rubbish outside th Chinese. Your belief in the fallacy that anyone, regardless of their intelligence or race, is qualified to govern has left you feeling too smug. Let me guess, you are a gene scientist, right? No? Well you must be some type of scientist. No? Ah, then the true answer is you're just some guy in China with some silly ideas without any science to back it up.
RiriRiri:
Really? My ancestor's inherited privilege?
You know, I'm a dad of a 3 months old daughter now.
Because I am trying to provide her with what she does need, which is a family with a structure and helping parents, I have significantly sacrificed on my own leisure time. My wife has put a pretty lucrative job on stand by too. We have organized our lifestyle so our daughter could get the best environment possible and we sure intend to keep doing that (and that's another ton of sacrifices ahead) because that's how a children can grow into a self-confident, mature adult capable of making their own choices. That's how my parents rose me and that's how my grandparents rose my parents.
We could have also chosen easier alternatives, like dump her at the grandparents. Sure would have been much easier and we would get to enjoy our evenings and weekends.
But we didn't, because I'd like her to eventually inherit my White Privilege membership card. That very one you get out of thin air.
Maybe some people may want to introvert on the way they prepare the future before calling in some deterministic bullshit. As I said, the only racist people I ever met were insecure non-whites. Time to cut the crap on that too.
yongge:
@ kasuka Have you ever heard about eugenics? Do a search and read up, there is plenty of information that might leave you shocked.
@xinyren, no, I am not a gene scientist, but I am not stupid either and do not accept everything the media and politicians spoon feed us. In the light of your original post I find your personal attack a bit strange and would have thought that you of all people would have understood better where I come from. I am not a twenty something graduate who found his first job in China and have idealistic views of the world. I am highly educated, no thanks to white privilege, but to hard work, and have been around the block and the world a few times. I think for myself, even if it means going against the stream.
Let me clarify my standpoint again. While I do believe in the inequality of people, and this comes from personal research and experience, I do firmly believe in the EQUALITY OF TREATMENT OF ALL. I treat ALL people with respect, until they prove they are not worthy of it., and I think I am more tolerant of and sensitive to cultural differences than most You do not need to believe people to be equal to treat them equally. BTW, if you look at all the humanitarian efforts in the world, isn't that an acceptance that some are less equal and can't fend for themselves? Isn't that born from a sense of superiority and responsibility to take care of the lesser ones? Isn't that what seperates us - the ability to have compassion and care for others less fortunate? Unfortunately this is being exploited by them, trying to make us feel guilty sorry to be white. Well, I am not.
kasuka91:
@yongge Eugenics? Ahhh, let the ramble into pseudo-science begin.
kasuka91:
@RiriRiri Read through my response again carefully, particularly with regards to the inheritance money example given. While I generally agree with the contents of alot of your posts, I feel that you get it wrong here, and throw up a strawman in the form of how you approach life's challenges vis-a-vis Chinese locals. Also, please refrain from tooting your own horn. At the end of the day, while it will give you a sense of superiority and make you feel better, it does nothing to actually help you in improving yourself. Just saying...
xinyuren:
yonge, I have a problem with your use of the term "inequality of people", as if you are in a position to determine a person's worth. People have different abilities, talents, tendacies and weaknesses. You apparently feel you have the ability to qualify them by your own standards. This really irks me. In the end, NOONE is qualified to wield power. We are all enept. Treating everyone equally and with dignity is not a concept that springs from feelings of superiority, but rather from acknowledgement that we all are painfully inadequate. Your comment about white people for white people and why cant other races do it takes the cake. Do what? Destroy the environment and invade their neighbors? The state of the world today is proof that all men are are inadequate to this task. I have no opinion about white privilege, but your posts reek of white supremacy. This is from the viewpoint of a black American.
yongge:
Those who are the most insecure are the ones who shout the most for equality, and it is easy to see who they are. You said it yourself that everyone is different, that means unequal. Some are just better at some things than others. Just accept it and get on with life. Don't let it become a stumbling block and something you can use to blame others instead of your own inadequacy Does being a Black American make you special? Why aren;t you just an American?.
kasuka91:
@yongge All I know is that you're a random foreigner living in China who doesn't believe in the full equality of human beings and is a proponent of the study of eugenics. This tells me enough..
xinyuren:
yonge, I doubt you even know the meaning of "unequal". In this context, it has nothing to do with different. Your argument is coming apart because you have a very weak basis. It gets even weaker when you try to bring genes into it. Put down your copy of Redneck Monthly. It doesn't constitute an education nor scientific research. And you were the first to bring one's race into the issue (while denigrating others). Does that make you special? I believe you would say yes. I agree with kasuka. You're just some random expat with some deluded ideas about science
yongge:
I agree with kasuka too. At least I have a viewpoint, deluded or not. Cheers mate
silverbutton1:
"" ...but rather the well meaning idiots who believe in the fallacy that all men are equal" I like to look at it this way. All humans are created equal, but are not born equal."" Let me expand my comment (Sorry I thought it was more or less understood). All humans are created equal in the eyes of God (according to many who study Biblical scripture, but also according to the US Declaration of Independence). All humans arent born equal, as it can clearly been seen in the socio-economic structure of civilization. Only a few are born with silver spoons in their mouths, while many are born poor.
yongge:
Silver, you are getting closer to my point. Yes, from a religious point all are equal, and from a socio-economical point there is great inequality, but it comes to the question why? Forget about those born in wealth, they have it made for them. Why can some of those born in poverty rise above their circumstances and not have to resort to crime or wait from handouts? Because they are smarter. They were born smarter, it is in their genes. So when I am saying men are not equal, I mean not equal in terms of intelligence, and those with higher intelligence will rise above their circumstances, no matter what, while those with lower intelligence will forever hold their hands out and blame everyone else except themselves for their situation. I hope we can end this discussion, as I do not want to be called a white supremacist again, which I am certainly not. Hell, I am in China and kind of like the fact that race isn't really a factor, because everyone is the same
kasuka91:
Financial, social and cultural capital are still all factors which have an influence on one's socio-economic prospects. These factors can operate and thrive regardless of whether everyone is the same in the racial sense.
So @yongge everyone is not the same here, China has one of the highest rates of income inequality in the world and is a country where close to 90% of the country's rich have a relative in government. Some people, whether it's race or family connections, or pure luck are just born with a head-start in life.
The world is capitalist and property is theft - intelligence and success through social mobility are not synonymous. To me, your thinking comes across as lazy and only scratches on the surface, masked in many different assumptions and ignorance. Ever heard of a book called "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell?
Furthermore, how many people do you actually know that were born poor (and by poor, I mean in the relative sense) but became rich? Or even middle class? I can't think of many..yongge:
kasuka,please stop the personal namecalling, or is this how you have a discussion when somebody do not agree with you?
Sorry, I should have said in China everyone is in the same boat. The smart ones are the ones that use their connections, be it right or not. I have met some pretty smart people in China, but also many more stupid ones. But rising from poverty is all relative, what is considered to be rich for one might be poor for another. There are smart genes in every race group, some just have it more than others, But the scary part is that the average intelligence of the world is decreasing, because the ones that can least afford it, have the most kids. Maybe the Chinese have seen this coming a long time ago.
As for knowing people who rose from poverty, in spite of socio-economic challenges, maybe our worlds and life experience are totally different. I know plenty, that's why I stand by my point of view that the smart will be successful, if not, some of their descendants will.
kasuka91:
@yongge I'm not name calling, I'm just criticizing your way of thinking and logic, which I backed up with my reasoning. A lot of your assertions are somewhat based on blanket statements.
Because of Nixon and Kissinger bringing China onto the world stage and the continued massaging of it's rise to power by American corporate interests, the influence that shaped the rise of China has only solidified the moral and ethical degradation that we witness today by the ultra rich around the world.
America's morals, integrity and promise of hope has been sold off to the soulless CCP for cheap consumer goods that have helped drive corporate profits and to influence the material selfish global society we have now.
It will only get worse...China has no moral compass...never has...and the US sold theirs for cheap labor and higher corporate profits.
The .01% control the planet now and the take over is almost complete.
The final hour began in 1972.
silverbutton1:
couldnt have said it any better. You nailed it precisely.
Congratulations, you see through the smokescreen finally, and experience first hand not all that glitters is gold. Graduation time, you are right. I laugh when I see some Polyannas or rookies living in denial because they are mad at whatever political or social systems they come from, wanting to believe what they are mad at, in their home country cannot be found in PRC. Pitiful souls indeed, refuse to tell it as it is.
There seems to be two quotes on China from Napoleon. The first one is attributed to him in 1803 (ie before he became emperor), he is said to have pointed to a map, on china and said (more or less, there are many versions of the quote) "Ici repose un géant endormi, laissez le dormir, car quand il s'éveillera, il étonnera le monde" - "here lies a sleeping giant (lion in other versions), let him sleep, for when he wakes up, he will shock the world"
And then, there is a second, more famous one, which is supposed to have been said in St Helena (in which case, it might be in Las Cases Memorial of St Helena): "quand la chine s'éveillera, le monde tremblera" (when China wakes up, the world will shake).
http://wanderingchina.blogspot.hk/2008/08/napoleon-and-his-view-on-china...
1. Napoleon was being diplomatic with his choice of words.
2. He didn't watch the movie Alien. I believe he would use some other words if he did, if he was honest.
China never was and certainly isn't a lion. "Lions" don't steal copyrights, manufactures fakes, gutter oil, shit and spit everywhere, locally and abroad, throw boiling noodles at flight attendants, use fake tickets to get into the Lourve, urinate into hotels' water flasks, corrupt billions and flee to developed countries, are responsible for the majority of academic fake research papers......etc. Heck, Chinese themselves never called themselves descendants of lions. They called them descendants of dragons. Dragons are in essence 'flying serpents'...... We all know what the commonly accepted personality traits of serpents are. I am not sure about 'shaking the world', but surely China is sh*tting the world, both figuratively and literally. Shock the world, thumbs up to you dude, Napoleon.
Most of human history has been one of despotism and tyranny. Perhaps things are simply getting back to normal.
Chinese want to mastermind their way to success, but they are too clueless to succeed. They measure success by comparing with others. they derive satisfaction from face but only want to receive, not give respect. the economy is rated by the social/environmental damage created. problems are not solved because they are scarcity market opportunities.
the systems they use, be it communist or commercial, are in essence western, but "ruined" by Chinese characteristics.
So, what are Chinese characteristics? I think insecurity and low confidence in self and others is a given. Irresponsible behaviour is not unique to China, but this particular type stems from an unwillingness to own one's actions. People prefer to explore the moment like a child, rather than committing to building a future. Making sacrifices for the family is commendable when put into practice, but… "When do i get to play with an iPhone, or a KTV girl, or win at mahjong?" The impulse wins most of the time, so the people reach for the short-term gain and to hell with the consequences.
I believe this is the cause of corruption, pollution, scams, abuse and all those problems in China. It's systemic and indigenous.
But there are also commendable qualities, like non-violence. Chinese do not choose physical violence easily, and only if they are in large numbers. They value education and social ties, though the present culture twists it all in an ugly way. These people are not hopeless, and if sociology and related sciences were more advanced, we'd know the right cues to turn them in the right direction.
But my own country is hardly a paradise of righteousness either. A million refugees are walking this way to seek asylum. The reason they will be let in is sinister. They are intended to scare middle class Europeans into consuming. Insurances, cars, houses, security alarms, whatever makes people feel safe again. For this, the asylum seekers will undergo several months of bad treatment in refugee centers, before being unleashed into the country, disgruntled and belligerent. Without the refugees, Europe's middle class would just sit on their savings, content with what they have. The economy can't survive a slowdown of sales, so extreme measures like regugees are employed. The unsuspecting refugees don't even know what their ignorance is being used for.
All societies have good and bad qualities. But if there is no drive to maintain stability, scarcity must be generated through any means necessary.
I think what you said can apply to Qingdao. Looks nice on the surface but then you see the trash and all the hookers,etc and odd behavior . Seriously what is up with Shandong Province ? Parents parading their hooker daughters everywhere ? Some looked like they were in middle school. I bet the parents don't even work just rent out their daughters for the night . The education must be very poor in this area.
Great post, honest, deep and so unfortunately sad by the facts that you've put on the table.
I was supposed to head back to China. I still seek for this chance, but that is because I am so sentimental, ill sentimental and I forgive...sooooo much. Now you've opened up past wounds that once, a few years ago, not many, I have suffered in my heart because of similar facts such as yours, already mentioned in your post.
It does scare me the idea of returning to China. It is very scary, indeed.
I knew it once and I know it again. Reading through your post, it unfortunately confirms fears I wish I have forgotten already. I believe these are to remain at the back of my consciousness going deep down and beyond the unconsciousness. This much,living in China, reshapes the perception about everything and about himself. Memories in China are to never be wiped away, ever. Although efforts are so much endeavored for optimism, for hopes for better, they come back to confirm that not only things did not improve rather changed for worse.
I am sorry that you experience this much about China and I am sure, sooner or later, if I return to China, I will again experience similar disappointments.
I almost believed that Chongquin is such a great place until you described through the lenses of Western expat guy. I did see it as if I were there, the same way you saw and felt about that place. Disappointment, such disappointing disappointment.
xinyuren:
It sounds like your heart is bringing you back to China? Is love the reason? In that case, it might be worth it. Good luck with your decision.
PulSartre:
It's about people and their life. I went through so much cultural shocks that I realize after this long time that China operates changes so deep inside one's self that it changes the cultural DNA to extents you realize afterwards. It mutates you inside without noticing and makes you become something you were never before nor thought you will become.
Thus, knowing how aggressive those changes are perceived inside myself and how I understood the evil that goes off many cultural endeavors, I determined to never get in love with a Chinese girl, ever. No matter what. I did find one, however, very human, actually two great women. One of them was so closed to my senses yet I never gave up on prudence and more prudence. I believe I've done well to be so.
After all, it's about people. It is a very tempting country, its people and its culture. However, as one of the thread of an American guy in love with a Chinese girl, I found recently on this forum, a love affair with China needs a one or years break up after spending a one or two years inside. Once you're set up and contaminated by the touch of reality with what China is, prudence seems to never be enough for another love affair with it.
And I call it love. Chinese will call it opportunity and entitlement. While we give, they believe they deserve it. Maybe love affair it's not the best to describe it but in the way they use us and miss use us, love as well is not the same as we understand it.
Yet, I hope soon to be there again.
Why is there a discussion about white minority rule in SA in ths topic?
yongge:
No, just got sidetracked into a deluded discussion on equality. BTW, SA has a black majority government/p>
rasklnik:
The comments in the long OT thread seem to be saying SA was better before...
kasuka91:
Of the 16 or so comments in that thread, I think that about three of them were about South Africa.
The majority of the comments were dedicated to discussing white privilege, whether it's fair or not, and...the credibility of the field of eugenics lol
