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Shifu

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Q: "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - describe anywhere you know?

Well does it?

10 years 35 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."  Samuel Johnson 1775

happywanderer:

Ah good catch, I don't read gud.

10 years 35 weeks ago
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Agreed.  Patriotism is nothing more than another form of religious zealotry.  It causes people to do irrational and disastrous things.

happywanderer:

I often find myself thinking that these days.  People can really be united in their patriotism.  It can be used to excuse rude behavior, avoid blame or introspection, cloak aggression as defence.  There are just so many uses.

10 years 35 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Yes.  Patriotism is a government's "cross" and a very powerful unifying tool.   And when patriotism and religious zealotry join forces, heaven help us all!  World Wars have resulted from this unholy union.

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'When I am abroad, I always make it a rule never to criticize or attack the government of my own country. I make up for lost time when I come home.'

 

Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

happywanderer:

Oh I quite like that quote too.  Although I personally tend to criticize everything everywhere. Or at least, if I feel it deserves it.

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this made me think about all my favouite quotes on this topic.

“It is not always the same thing to be a good man and a good citizen.” Aristotle

happywanderer:

Wisdom of the ancients.

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happywanderer:

Haha - this comment probably won't make me any friends but does that mean in Aristotle's time women couldn't be citizens?

10 years 35 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

HW - yes, that is true.

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Excellent quote.

 

Nationalism in China is used to justify all manner of revolting (and violent, and dangerous) behaviour.

 

During the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands hostilities last year, one of my colleagues – in a state of obvious excitement – asked me what I thought about the anti-Japan demonstrations.

 

Me: You mean Chinese people attacking each other, smashing up cars, and looting each other's shops? I think it’s disgusting behaviour.

Him: What? No! It shows that Chinese people love their country.

Me:  Well I wouldn’t attack random people in my country. Because actually that would make my country a shit place. What do Chinese people hope to achieve by assaulting each other? This is a dispute between the Chinese and Japanese governments.

Him: Governments that were voted for by the people.

Me: You didn't vote for your government.

Him: You are biased.

Me: Against who? I didn't say I support either side.

Him: You said we don't vote.

Me: .... you don't.

Him: Democracy comes in many forms.  (ends conversation)

Me: ... ...

 

The CCP relies on Chinese citizens A) conflating personal pride with national pride*, and B) not recognising the difference between country and government**. Chinese people are extremely easy to manipulate when it comes to national perceptions and matters of "sovereignty".

 

*: Chinese people are not encouraged to have a sense of self-worth based on positive attributes. Instead of valuing personal qualities and achievements, they derive pride from national myths and nationalistic slogans (e.g. “5000 years of history”), which, if questioned, evoke irrational anger.

 

**: "Love your country" (a dodgy proposition at best) in China means "Love the Communist Party". The confusion between “country” and “CCP” is absolutely necessary when explaining why "China" should control Taiwan.

happywanderer:

Very nicely put.  And that conversation exactly reflects conversations I've had on any number of topics.  It seems that criticism about literally anything goes straight to the pre-programmed "China is great!" response.

10 years 35 weeks ago
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ohChina:

I'm replying your comment below here so you can get a notification.

 

I actually think many Chinese lack patriotism. Many people only care about their personal gains, even at the cost of putting the country and other people's welfare or security in danger.

 

A history fact that you might not know:

During the war between China and Japan from 1937-1945, the Chinese puppet army who surrendered to Japanese and then turned their guns at Chinese, outnumbered the Japanese army. (count in millions). Even the vice president of KMT and deputy commander of Chinese military Wang Jingwei  defected and became a puppet leader.  If they were a little bit more patriotic, that war wouldn't have been that hard.

 

And today's govt leaders, rich businessmen who get their grey money through bribe and corruption, I think they seriously lack patriotism too. Their gains are at the cost of this country's and its people's today's welfare and future.  For the skilled technicians, scholars, scientists , richer middle class who chose to move abroad, I understand their situations can be difficult and it's one's freedom of choice. But then again, they are the elites of the country. If they are patriotic enough and stand up ,lead and fight to make China move forward, that would be very nice. It's just many of them care so little about their homeland China.

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happywanderer:

I didn't know that about the war, thank you.  And yes I agree all of those examples are all unpatriotic.  But I think there are two points to consider here:

1.  Those that are manipulated, and

2.  Those that manipulate.

For those that are manipulated they may see themselves as genuine patriots without really thinking about what a good patriot is.  Your quote from Zinn is a good example about people needing to define patriotism in positive terms, such as justice, rather than submissive worship to flags.  My comment that you're addressing is really about this category of people - the ones that unthinkingly cling to their concept of patriotism as it was fed to them while growing up (even though it may not conform to true patriotism).

But you address that comment by referring to the second category of people - those that abuse the goodwill of others.  Many of the quotes on this Q&A are about how terrible (and often unpatriotic) acts are often carried out under the guise of being patriotic.  The trouble is not with those who just try to do good, but that patriotism can be used as a way of uniting people (those that are manipulated) behind a common cause, which is often unpatriotic.  So if we use the rich businessmen for an example, absolutely yes, corruption and dirty money are definitely not patriotic.  But aren't they exactly the people who claim they are doing good, patriotic work while they are in fact just abusing the system?

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GuilinRaf:

Chiang Kai Sheck decried Wang jiangweis treason as well.

And, the KMT did a lot to fight the Japanese.  Ever heard of the "Flying Tigers"? The KMT were the one's who broght them over.

Now, that was nearly 70 years ago, yet the old hatreds remain to absurd levels.

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Shifu

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Incidentally, if any locals are reading this Q&A I'd be very interested in your views as well.

happywanderer:

So let me get this right - this comment got a thumbs down because...  the views of Chinese people in China shouldn't be heard?  Mmmm

10 years 35 weeks ago
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ohChina:

That's the mentality of eChinacities. Many users here don't like Chinese to have patriotism. However I think, patriotism, just like many other things, has both a positive side and a negative side.  

10 years 35 weeks ago
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Samsara:

Would someone who down-voted this care to comment?

 

 

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Samsara:

ohChina - What are some of the positive manifestations of Chinese patriotism?

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GuilinRaf:

@OhChina

Speaking only for myself, It is not that I dont want Chinese to love their country. What I dont want is when my students treat another student like crap just because her mother is Japanese. Or when they destroy another persons car because it was made in Japan. Or when citizens of a particular country are treated like crap for a war that happened 70 years ago. That is not "patriotism".  That is being a short sighted and bigoted bully. When they work hard and make cleaner, safer streets and products, when they join the military, or the police. When they give first rate medical or business serivces to everyone. When they see someone in danger and help the person. When they cheer their teams who do well in sports, or their artists who acheive intenational recognition, that is different and that is something to be celebrated. EDIT: Just to add, when they (and I mean anyone form any country) see something wrong in their country or society and they take steps to correct it, rather than hide it or pretend it does not exist, THAT is patriotism.

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Shifu

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Local here.

10 years 35 weeks ago
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crimochina:

i hope you actually understand what that quote means

10 years 34 weeks ago
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Shifu

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There are some excellent quotes and examples here, and I'd like people to continue contributing if you feel there's anything you'd like to add.  

But I'd also like to broaden the scope a little - perhaps something for any (amateur or professional) psychologists out there.  Does anyone here have a good explanation of why patriotism so readily lends itself to this darker side of human nature?

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I always thought Patriotism was the day you were supposed to party and get high...

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10 years 35 weeks ago

There are cookies, bookies and too many rookies for me to sit here trying to be a hooky! Looky Looky don't call me a wooky. Touchy Touchy Feely Feely Spicy Spicy Nicey Nicey & that's what the doctor Ordered!!

 
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Could it be the basic need to belong to a group? "my group is better than yours".

Most people identify themselves with their country first, then their home town/city a so on down. To stand out from the group can be dangerous which is why is easy to manipulate people: “if you don’t believe/do this, you are not part of the group” which can be dangerous for some.

Who was it said: “if you are not with us, you are against us” – another-words no room for asking questions.

“First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.”

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984)

Just some thoughts .

happywanderer:

Haha, oh Sorrel, I think I'm seeing a new side to you.  And I quote "To stand out from the group can be dangerous which is why is easy to manipulate people" - is this from personal experience in manipulation?

But more seriously, a very good answer.  Yes I see things largely in those terms too. We all feel the need to belong.

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ohChina:

"my group is better than yours".

I don't think that's patriotism. That is more like ignorance, or prejudice.

Being patriotic to one's country , in my opinion, is just simply love his/her country. in Chinese, the word for patriotism is 爱国主义.   主义 =ism   爱国= love (one's) country. That's it.

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happywanderer:

Yes I think "my group is better than yours" is prejudiced as well.  I like your view of what patriotism is.  But many would disagree with you and go to great lengths to prove that their country is the best, and then call it patriotism.   

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At it's very core, patriotism is the worship of government, regardless of what the dictionary says.  A country is the land and it's people.  Loving your country simply entails taking care of nature and showing respect and honor to the citizens.  Patriotism as we know it today is no more than a word the government uses to provoke obedience.  

Love of country can be immediately seen by the condition of the environment and the attitudes of people.  "Patriotism" can be observed by blind fervor for an ideology.  If you truly love your country, it isn't too much of an effort to extend that love beyond the artificial boundaries of your nation.  But Patriotism guards those petty man-made lines on a map to the point of killing others who live opposite those lines and disagree with their government's ideology.

 

Patriotism is more damaging in China because the government here has only a few, diminishing choices in controlling their people.  Harmonized education has bred passive minds into the citizens and  totalitarian control has bred fear:  fertile ground for the destructive form of patriotism.

 

So in summary, patriotism often leads to tragedy because it is a tool of the government and governments are more about power and control than they are about real love for their respective countries.

happywanderer:

Yes, maps would be a lot prettier without lines.  I love lineless maps!

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Governor

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I've heard quite a few local people repeat a similar mantra of:

 

"I love my country, I am a patriot"

 

How can one love a country? Surely the phrase is an oxymoron?

happywanderer:

Yeah that's a fair point.  And to be honest hearing patriotic slogans makes me mentally switch off.  Although I admit to applying the word love to things that aren't female myself .e.g I love beer .

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I would suggest that the only significant difference between Chinese patriotism and any other patriotism is the degree, and method, to which the people have been manipulated from day dot. It happens in other countries, but due to different factors, the effects are a little different.

 

Most people would call themselves 'patriotic' (except Aussies, who don't give much of a shit, and don't know the words of the 2nd line to our national anthem Tongue), and for the most part, would think similarly... except, in many countries, we do differentiate between 'country' and 'government'. But, this goes the other way, too. When we think of bagging another nation, we're not thinking of the 'country', but usually of their government (and, sometimes, their people).

 

Who said "the best slave is the one who doesn't believe s/he is"??

happywanderer:

Good quote!  Kate Beckinsale?

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https://www.scmp.com/video/china/2169194/chinese-tv-drama-mothers-life-triggers-controversy-over-role-women

 

Obey your husband and in laws, great tv brainwashing with the bullshit virtue and patriotism agenda.

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