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Q: Pay differential between foreign teachers and local teachers, is it "fair"?
A comment by Nicebrice and a recent thread inspired me to start a new thread on this topic as I think it has the potential to stimulate an interesting discussion (and interesting discussion has been sort of lacking lately on ECC imo).
We all know that foreign teachers typically earn a lot more than local teachers. In terms of monthly salary differential it's often about four times more from my observations but I'm sure it could be more or less in different situations. Local teachers understandably get upset over this - after all they are all bilingual (at least to a certain extent) and pretty much all have degrees that are in some way related to English or teaching whereas a lot of foreign teachers can simply show up with their foreign looking face and passport, little or no teaching experience, may or may not have a degree (they legally have to but I know many who don't) and a wide range of teaching abilities. This situation upsets people like Nicebrice and is likely a source of tension between local and foreign teachers.
I have to say I agree with this point of view to a certain extent, at least on the surface. It doesn't seem right for a random recent college graduate from Australia to show up and earn a higher monthly salary than a Chinese teacher with years of experience and a teaching related master's degree. This is compounded by the fact that a lot of foreign teachers in China have little teaching ability or interest in teaching for that matter. So it really pisses me off when I see some drunken lazy clown who doesn't have a clue making a lot more than a hard working Chinese teacher who developed years of skills to be able to do her job. It doesn't seem right and I could see why it generates resentment.
Now, in spite of the above the situation is not so black and white. First of all, the income differential is not nearly as great as it might seem on the surface. Most Chinese teachers enjoy social welfare benefits including pensions, health insurance and other insurance benefits that make getting a mortgage easier just to name a few. At public schools, they also enjoy significant job security and will likely have their jobs for life (although they might have had to pay someone or call in a favor to get the job in the first place). Some public school teachers (especially those in international programs or those with leadership roles) can enjoy hong baos that might cause them to earn significantly more than a a basic FT salary. Training school teachers and TA's can often increase their income by tutoring their students on the side. So FT's don't really earn THAT much more than locals when you look at the big picture.
Furthermore, there is a small but substantial minority of Chinese English teachers who make the big bucks. These are NOT the people that you will encounter as your TA in a training school. I'm talking highly experienced TOEFL/IELTS/SAT/Gaokao prep teachers with years of experience and a good reputation. They can often charge 300+ per hour for one to one teaching and have students lining up to take their class. I know a Chinese guy who gets 400 an hour and he has plenty of students.
It's also kind of silly to discuss whether something is "fair" or "unfair" when it is dictated by market forces. The fact is that public schools and training centers know that having a FT is good business for them so they're willing to pay a certain rate to attract them. The benefits far outweigh the costs as long as the FT is not a complete dickhead. Even a solid Chinese teacher with a degree and experience won't attract students the same way that a foreign face will, the market is the market.
Furthermore, for there to be FT's in China in the first place salaries have to be competitive enough to entice people to move across the world to a country with a reputation for pollution, shady business practices and poor sanitation. How many people in native English speaking countries would be willing to put their lives on hold and come teach in China for a local salary of 3,000 rmb per month? Maybe a few recent college grads or adventurers but there would be no hope of attracting anyone decent and reliable at those rates. Schools have to pay enough that at minimum FT's can enjoy more spending power than they would at a low wage job back home.
So, what do you think?
8 years 27 weeks ago in Business & Jobs - China
I know it's been said before but it's simple supply and demand. You just couldn't get a foreigner to do it for much less money than schools are offering now. Chinese teachers on the other hand are plentiful. It's a cozy job with good benefits and lots of time off and opportunities to make extra money on the side. Lots of chinese graduates would love to be a teacher and the competition is tough. Another thing that strikes me as odd is someobody saying that foreign teachers are making 3.5 to 8,000 a month. Maybe in some forgotten backwater village. The going rate to start in tier one cities like SH and BJ is 10 and I wouldn't personally work for less than 16. Another thing you have to consider is that the parents drive the demand. They want a white face teaching their kids. That's what sells. It sucks but it's true. If you really want to have a discussion about teaching you should talk about how it's much harder for a black teacher or ABC to get a job teaching English. That's unfair in my opinion but it all goes back to what the parents want. So until the parents expectations change it will just keep going on like it has been.
expatlife26:
I was confused by that 3.5-8 comment too. But I think what they meant was that the base salary for the local teacher was 3.5 compared to the 8 base salary for the internationally recruited one, but then explaining the fringe benefits available to the local teacher erase much of that gap.
dongbeiren:
What expatlife26 said..... yea I've never heard of a foreign teacher on 3.5.... I've heard of some unis paying as low as 4.5 but not many training schools would be paying less than 8 even in smaller cities.
Here's my experience from a "top-tier" college in GZ:
The base salaries for Chinese teachers compared to foreigners is 3.5K to 8K per mo. That's all the foreigners get. The Chinese teachers get full medical and dental plans, a free apartment with a 10 year contract, a house (yes, a house) with a 25-year contract.
The foreign teachers are paid 10 months per year, the Chinese, 13.
The Chinese teachers receive bonuses at each holiday ranging from 500RMB to 3500RMB (except Spring Festival when they receive a full month or more salary).
The Chinese teachers receive "gifts," be it cash or vouchers for merchandise from student's parents. The Chinese teachers can implement "extra classes" for failing students at a rate of their own choosing for as long as they think the child requires it at anywhere from 50-250 RMB per hour.
Chinese teachers can tutor and work outside of their normal contracts and schools, and most that I know of do.
Most of the Chinese teachers that I know (my MIL and wife's uncle included) have several apartments, cars and a comfy lifestyle on their 3500RMB/mo.
Now, there certainly are "dedicated" teachers who live and work in the poorest of poor regions who cannot hope to attain this, but it is not to say that they cannot exceed our "net" salary if they so choose.
Hell, my students in GZ were told by their Chinese teachers that their tuition was so high because of the foreign teachers. I said, "Look at the teacher's parking lot. What do you see there that I don't even have?" Mercedes, BMW, Range Rovers, Land Rovers, the newest Japanese models, etc.
It's all about who you know and who you'll blow...
dongbeiren:
Interesting - it sounds like the Chinese teachers are actually somewhat better off on 3.5k than the foreigners at 8k. But there are plenty of opportunities for foreigners with China savvy to work the system too - just read some of the posts from Eorthisio/ RandomGuy.
Chhris:
You should not consider yourself a teacher if you are working at a university in China. You are teaching oral-English, meaning all you do is talk to students and let them talk too. The Chinese teachers have to grade a shitload of tests after the mid and end-terms, do research and have office hours every week. Of course they get more benefits.
dongbeiren:
Chhris, that's not necessarily true. Most of my uni. classes are not oral English and I've had to grade over 200 final exams in the past, including essays.
On the flip side of this. I was helping an American company running Chinese machines negotiate to have Chinese technicians go over for half a year or so. I happen to know for a fact that these people made at the very most 6K a month. These are not engineers. No degrees. Just factory worker/ technicians. Knew how to troubleshoot poop Chinese machines.
Anyways they all got between 20 and 25K a month.Plus housing. Same job, but in a different country now. And they will get a fair amount more than the local factory workers.
If you have something the local market doesnt have then you get more. Thems the breaks.
I have a friend who is a public school teacher (She's Chinese) and I have worked in public schools.
From what I've heard and seen, the salary is the tip of the iceberg, it's pretty much as Sinobear describes it. Believe me, those 'extra makeup classes' , and holiday classes that are of course 'voluntary' are money makers.
I have students now who complain to me about how they have to attend these 'voluntary classes' , otherwise they'll surely fail. Everyone knows why they will fail.
Back to the topic though... Is the base salary difference fair? Well it's like Dongbei said, fair or unfair doesn't come into it, it's simple market forces and I don't think it's unreasonable. A foreign teacher, especially a decent one, is not going to come here for what the Chinese teachers make (as a base salary) when there are so many other options available. Why would they? The market has determined what a foreign teacher is worth here.
If your gripe is about unqualified, inexperienced kids coming to China and earning more than Chinese teachers, it is because the system for vetting them is poor. I consider myself a professional with high standards, certainly in a league way beyond the local Chinese teachers, but I had to jump through many stupid and unreasonable hoops to get a job in Jiangsu, probably the most difficult province to get into. My point is, if the system works like it should, China should get teachers deserving of their salaries.
RandomGuy:
So long you don't hit your students and have a minimum level of interaction with them instead of doing a lecture, you can consider yourself better than local Chinese teachers.
Pay levels are and have never been fair. It just goes back to the demand and supply of labour in different trades and professions. This isn't only the case for foreign teachers and Chinese teachers, you could say the same for a banker vs a lab researcher, or a programmer vs a social worker etc.
Agree with everything you are saying dongbei. I understand why the pay isn't equal.
What I don't understand is the hostility towards Chinese teachers. When I asked "What's the stupidest thing you've seen a teacher do?" I expected a lot of dumb foreign teacher storeis. Instead, everyone immediately when after the local teachers who, and I'm sorry but you can't even debate this, are much more professional and qualified.
NiceBrice:
It's just the underlying "us against them" attitude that a lot of users on here have that raises my blood pressure.
kasuka91:
It wasn't everyone, it seemed more 50-50 last time I checked. But I see what you mean about the "them and us" mindset which seems to exist on this site.
Stiggs:
Are you really sure sure they're more professional and qualified though? This is a place where qualifications are bought and sold, where jobs are sold or given as quanxi favors to useless assholes who happen to be connected.
Maybe it depends where you are, but I've met 'English teachers' who can't hold even a basic conversation in English. I've seen blatant cheating, top grades being sold for cash, students being extorted for money, teachers who hate their jobs and are only in it for their own self interests, schools that are only about making money for the leaders.
This is the sort of thing a lot of foreign teachers see, and remember as their China experience.
Can you really blame people for being cynical?
The Chinese Education system is shit. People give bribes to make sure that their children receive a better education. For me this is fundamentally wrong. I wouldn't want to enter my child into such a system. Education is a beautiful thing and when manipulated towards greed it becomes cheap, tawdry and pointless.
Many foreign English teachers are unqualified and shit. Some (very few) foreign English teachers are qualified and are also good teachers. It's hard for Chinese parents to figure out which teachers are good and which teachers are poor when they speak no English. It's within this gap of uncertainty that many companies make their money.
China needs a lot of English teachers. It needs so many that it will take almost anyone. This is why foreign non-university graduates can get higher paid jobs compared to English major university graduates from China. It isn't surprising. It's a hangover from colonialism.
I'm enjoying it while it's available.
NiceBrice has a problem with some of the anti-Chinese rhetoric which crops up from time to time on this site. I've commented on it before. I've also been accused of it (see my article on Shanghai on the main page).
It's hard to give an honest account of China without somehow joining one camp or another.
What happened to education for the sake of education? Oh, wait, that's a Western concept.
I don't think it is fair BUT only because the Chinese teachers are underpaid. The foreign teachers most certainly are NOT being overpaid. Chinese companies are making western size profits now so why can't the locals have western size wages? The "communist" party is shafting their people. The people they are supposed to serve.
Yes it is fair. Supply and demand and value. Add what Sino said and they are not paid what we think.
There's no "fair" in economics. It's all just supply and demand. No, inexperienced first-world people don't "deserve" salaries that local professionals would kill for. But they command those salaries because there is money to be made from them being here and that's the minimum they can offer and still get anybody. The replacement-level jobs available in the US like retail clerk or food service are good enough that they have to offer more than a local wage.
On the flip side, that's why non-native teachers from poorer countries should thank god that it IS technically illegal for them to work here. If a handful of senegalese or pakistanis can sneak into the teaching system with great difficulty than they can still make 10K+ a month if they want. And that's great they can get that chance, but it's only possible because wage levels are set for teachers who are supposed to be brits or canadians.
The worst thing that could happen to a nigerian sneaking by teaching in a legal grey area and making decent money is for the market to become open to legal employment of nigerian ESL teachers. Because that 10K/mth benchmark salary would attract a massive flood of people for whom that is a ridiculously good salary. A total no brainer vs. the options they have at home. But the salary for them in practice wouldn't be 10K/mth it would probably be less than 2K. They aren't going to pay them any more than it costs to attract the handful they need.
Economics can be a bitch. But keep that in mind when non-native teachers from developing countries start complaining how they have extra problems. Has nothing to do with their ability or character either, but they should be glad those problems exist.
"So it really pisses me off when I see some drunken lazy clown who doesn't have a clue making a lot more than a hard working Chinese teacher who developed years of skills to be able to do her job." -You. So let me ask you something... why be so stressed over something you simply have no control over. That is a sign of mental instability, and/or just being plain dumb. Let me give you some quick advice... Quit thinking so idealistic, and think more realistic. Save yourself all the headache, anger, etc and you will live longer.
dongbeiren:
I'm not stressed at all - just using animated language to make a point about something that doesn't seem right. It's not like I sit around worrying about that at all. And if you continue reading you'll notice that I conclude the situation is not nearly as bad as it seems on the surface.
dongbeiren:
And if my post came across as mentally unstable I think you either didn't read it to the end or severely misunderstood my point.
dongbeiren:
Haha my Chinese psychiatrist didn't get why I kept twitching and mumbling about backpackers with high salaries so I just started talking in tongues and yelling hallejulah. She ting bu donged me, I asked for a refund and got a glass of hot water instead.
Let's see I've got a Russian Major/ Linguistics Minor, a CELTA, and 8 years of experience. I also think most of the language teachers in China, who are Chinese, are utter rubbish, and use the grammar translation method of teaching to the exclusion of all others. They give multiple choice tests where words are not in the proper, or ANY context at all. They mispronounce all their words and call it chinglish, not it isn't. It is incompetence. So no, in my opinion most Chinese Language teachers are garbage and deserve no money, and are over paid who sit at their desk and surf taobao.
My understanding of this situation and my experience.
Chinese schools need to offer competitive salaries to foreign teachers in order to make it worthwhile for teachers to come and teach at their school.
Demand for foreign teachers are high due to parents wishing their sons/daughters to learn English from native speakers.
Chinese schools will do their best to hire the ideal teacher because if they don’t, the parents, children and staff will know and will have an effect on the reputation of the school.
Whether a foreign English teacher is qualified or not, it does not matter, as long as the students like the teacher, the objective lesson plans are complete, progress is made with the students and the parents are happy on how the classes are taught and executed. (i.e. as long as the students don’t feel bored). Then they will be happy.
If a foreign teacher is fulfilling the above objectives, then there’s nothing wrong with asking for the highest paid salary they can get. You can also increase the salary depending on the schools location as some schools are in some awful places, in the outskirts of the city and sometimes getting to these places are a mission.
Some schools offer accommodation, food, transport so that needs to be taken account on the total amount of the salary, so that’s fair enough.
Foreign teachers can also get pay rises too and can do outside tutoring work. So a Foreign teacher can add more to their earnings.
As for the local teachers side of things, they probably do get extra benefits that we don’t get but I still think it’s not as good as a foreign teacher’s salary.
It is unfair for local teachers that they get paid less, unfortunately nothing much can be done on that unless things change later in the future. ( i.e. wage increase, foreign teacher numbers drop, strict working visas for foreigners, parents demands etc.).
Again, it is unfair but there’s nothing that can be done on this unless local teachers unite to strike or something.
Stiggs:
Yep, I agree with everything you said.I think it's a very accurate assessment. Except, local teachers making less money being unfair.
I still haven't really decided how I feel about that, I keep changing my mind.But, I will say that I have seen both very good local teachers,and completely horrible teachers who don't give a shit about their students. And they probably get paid the same. The same can be said for foreign teachers.
Is it fair? No, but employers have to have a pay scale system in place (in order to be fair.... yeah I know...) and that system will usually come down to what qualifications you have and what you can bring to the job. If you are going to measure a teacher on this criteria - and really, how else can you do it - then the 'foreign expert' who is a native speaker, has two years of experience and a college degree is probably the better choice, and therefore worth more money.
That's not to say I don't think Chinese teachers are worth more money, I just think that, on paper at least which is how the system works, the foreign teacher is worth more.
Riosa:
Thanks for the kind words, A great topic to discuss. I’ve always assumed the Chinese wage is low regardless what the job is, (I am generalizing on that point) I know nothing about the salary structure in China and how much an assistant gets and how much a teacher gets, to me it’s kind of a mystery, I usually don’t ask local teachers their wage because I kind of get the feeling it will be bad and in turn I will feel bad for them, like for example 1000 RMB a month. I am sure some teachers get a good wage. I have no idea what a Chinese person thinks is a good wage, so in retrospect we should be asking what’s a fair wage to them is. If I had to guess, an average Chinese person would think 6000- 8000 RMB would be pretty good, as for a foreigner we would think any think over 9000 (wanna say 10,000RMB) and over would be pretty good for us, and the reason why that is, is because we can compare it to our wage back in our home, unlike a Chinese person, they can’t compare it to anything. A lousy teacher in theory should get sussed out sooner or later as there’s demo classes, open classes, review classes, feedback stuff, and if a lousy teacher doesn’t improve then I’d imagine they’d be out the door.
sorrel:
@Riosa
the problem arises when there is a different understanding as to what a 'lousy' teacher is.
To me it is someone who plays movies and acts as the 'dancing monkey' all the time - which is what a lot of places want.
Whereas there are those who take the professional approach and try to have an element of instruction and exercises built into the class, which some students find 'boring' or too much like hard work, however, depending on the content of the class, may be an essential element to comprehension and mastery of the topic.
Yet teenage Zhang would be bored by anything less that the teachers full attention all the time.
Having been told by one public school that wanted to hire me that my job was to 'make them love English' i turned to position down as clearly the school did not know how to maximise the resource of an English teacher.
Most of the time, schools don't want a teacher, but a mixture of child-minder and entertainer. The result is that the professionals leave to where they can find a fulfilling role and the FT positions are filled by back-packers who want a year.
The 'edutainer' brings in the custom to the school and is the window-dressing.
Almost like being the visible 'face' of the school or (so help me) like paying for celebrity endorsement.
Until China figures out what it wants from FT's, this crazy system will continue.
Riosa:
@ Sorrel
For sure, it's definitely frustrating that teachers have to do certain things which they don't agree or told to act like a dancing monkey, but I wouldn't call them lousy because of that, that's just the way the schools are. It should be lousy management or lousy thinking from the schools side, not from the teacher.
In the government schools when Chinese students learn English, the education system is based on memory, it's that lousy system that enables high level English foreign teachers to come and work in China.
If it weren't for that, a lot of FT would be out of the job.
if I am employed by a school I just listen to what they have to say, give my own input and hope for the best we can work well together. If not I just do the job and wait for the contract to end.
I know it's been said before but it's simple supply and demand. You just couldn't get a foreigner to do it for much less money than schools are offering now. Chinese teachers on the other hand are plentiful. It's a cozy job with good benefits and lots of time off and opportunities to make extra money on the side. Lots of chinese graduates would love to be a teacher and the competition is tough. Another thing that strikes me as odd is someobody saying that foreign teachers are making 3.5 to 8,000 a month. Maybe in some forgotten backwater village. The going rate to start in tier one cities like SH and BJ is 10 and I wouldn't personally work for less than 16. Another thing you have to consider is that the parents drive the demand. They want a white face teaching their kids. That's what sells. It sucks but it's true. If you really want to have a discussion about teaching you should talk about how it's much harder for a black teacher or ABC to get a job teaching English. That's unfair in my opinion but it all goes back to what the parents want. So until the parents expectations change it will just keep going on like it has been.
expatlife26:
I was confused by that 3.5-8 comment too. But I think what they meant was that the base salary for the local teacher was 3.5 compared to the 8 base salary for the internationally recruited one, but then explaining the fringe benefits available to the local teacher erase much of that gap.
dongbeiren:
What expatlife26 said..... yea I've never heard of a foreign teacher on 3.5.... I've heard of some unis paying as low as 4.5 but not many training schools would be paying less than 8 even in smaller cities.
Market forces. The choice to come here was directly attributed to the Salary offered and Benefits package/housing. There are plenty of opportunities around the World to teach, but if you are in it for the money (as well as educating - the reason you probably became a teacher in the first place), then you select a contract based on financial reasons. The more expertise your teaching position requires, the higher your salary.
From an economics point of view, it makes perfect sense to be awarded a higher salary than a local.
