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Q: Is privacy a western concept?
Today I am reading news articles from back home and keep reading about all this invasion of privacy. I laugh because, the invasions they speak of seem minor compared with the complete destruction of privacy I have faced since I arrived in this place. I have the unique misfortune of living with Chinese people on a daily basis. So while my observations may not include all 1.6 billion that inhabit the country, I feel it is a basic understanding of the general behavior that passes for normal in this place. As you know they stare at you even when they stand right next to you. If you live with them, they will enter your room without knocking. Their invasion knows no bounds, so lock the door ,if you can,while you are in the bathroom because they will walk in and stare at you there too. If you are using your computer they will come stand behind you, and you guessed it, stare at the screen. I asked my Chinese wife several questions about this and her final response was "there are so many people in China. How can you expect to have privacy?" I disagree of course and say that a person should at least have privacy in their own home. Your thoughts on the subject are appreciated.
I have had the contents of my shopping basket handled and discussed when waiting in line at the check-out.
I have no idea what is so interesting about fruit and water.
When i glance to see what they have, in return, people have got all defensive.
Sinobear:
I can top that one!
Spring Festival 2000. I'm in Huizhou for three months (cold, but humid). Since I was stuck there for SF although I lived in Beijing at the time, I decided to splurge on some things for my temporary apartment.
Went to (at the time) the only 'real' supermarket. Bought a butcher knife, an extra-large towel (because the one I had would never dry) and a lot of drain cleaner (I guess a yeti used to live in the apartment before me and all the drains were plugged).
I'm walking to the checkout and there, in the very same aisle, is a bloody cameraman and reporter, interviewing people about their CNY purchases. I was spotted, reporter grabbed my shoulder and tried to turn me around. Whilst releasing a stream of obscenities, the cameraman focused on the contents on my basket.
Must have made interesting news that night.
ScotsAlan:
I have had people rummage through my tackle bag trying to see what my rod looks like.
But I don't mind that, us fishermen are always interested in each others fishing tackle 
I don't think it's only a western concept, but Western and Chinese personal boundaries are definitely different.
Maybe it's because of the Chinese culture of being part of a group rather than an individual so your business is everyone's business, maybe the fact that they pretty much live on top of each other with parents, kids, inlaws and sometimes extended family all living in the same small house.
I think they are more curious about foreigners because they are different. Chinese don't look over other Chinese's shoulder when they are texting like they do with you etc. I find it weird that if I point at a woman she will gets angry. You have super powers, remember not to destroy this myth.
timjames:
I agree that they are more curious, because I am different. I just think they take it too far, and come off as rude and annoying.
TedDBayer:
I've had women touch my arms (not super hairy) and my face while having a look of innocent kittens. That doesn't bother me, I don't know why I've never touched them back. I'm not saying that I always like the attention, I've shoved guys away when I'm using my translator to talk, they just keep coming back and looking over my shoulder no matter how hard I shove. At home I would head butt the second or third time.
I should try resting my head on womens shoulders and say ni hao since this is acceptable behaviour. Do you think a bit of rubbing is appropriate?
If you want privacy, whip out your yinjing, thats what they really want to see, maybe they'd leave faster if you want to show it.
Eorthisio:
If they point at you with a blank stare while saying "Laowai! Laowai!" just point back with a blank stare while saying "Zhongguoren! Zhongguoren!". Usually they will get it and won't bother you again.
I have to agree with you Mr Ted, we are just different and therefore interesting on one level or another. I read A LOT and enjoy doing so during my break time instead of sleeping as everyone else does. It is routine for random people to come to me and just stare at what I am reading for several minutes. As a read-a-holic, I tend to read pretty quickly so there is no way that they could have a clue about what I am reading as the pages turn too fast. But this stops no one and after several minutes of staring, the inevitable question/answer session comes...."What are you doing?" 'Reading' "What are you reading?" 'A book' "What is it about?" 'Something that happened' "Oh" .....they stand for a few more minutes and wander off.
I initially found this annoying but now just accept it. The whole privacy thing possibly stems from living with 8+ people in one room for their whole education and as most people have virtually nothing going on in their lives, someone doing something out of the "ordinary" is somewhat interesting and the obligatory obvious question must be asked. Eg: you cough....."Are you OK?" It is raining....."It's raining". This is just the way Chinese people are. It is a different culture where people behave differently and foreigners can feel uncomfortable when we view it from our own social/moral/logical perspective. This is also relevant to personal space and privacy. I try to let it go as much as possible. Try....
timjames:
Yeah, you're probably right about the fact that I should just let it go. However, every time someone stands so close to me that they touch me, then proceed to stare at me at point blank range. It is at these times when I feel I should initiate prison rules, punch him in the face, then scream at him "stay down b&@ch!" I know, part of it is my anger problem.
iWolf:
Mr Tim, China tends to bring out anger issues with all of us from time to time. Probably there is no solution to these issue although some manage them better than others.
I have a couple of funny stories about privacy/personal space after living in chiner something like 7 years...
Thursday I was in the office and a part-time contract guy in his 40's slipped between where i was standing/working and the wall, darn near rubbing up against me. I was in a bad mood already cuz office staff show the mindset of diminished-capacity adolescents. and to boot, he just grosses me out for some reason. little shrimp guy in his 40's I guess. he had No good reason to go behind me other than to sit down. I turned around and began berating him loudly. asking wtf did u need to slip behind me nearly rubbing up against me u little faggot!? he of course was dear in headlights , but had the good sense to apologise and try to explain it away. lucky for him cuz one smart-aleck word I would've duked him severely. one of my Pet-Peeves is these idiot males rubbing against peeps and standing next to u like they wanna have ur next baby. faggots
**no, i'm not homophobic. i have had gay friends. i actually support LBGT,,, but i can't rub up against a female randomly,, and males can't rub up against me either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
the other tale is very gross imagery,, so, I will not relate it unless asked.
timjames:
Yeah, I know what you mean the guys with the man purse and Justin Beiber hair cut are weird. What's this gross story of yours?
diverdude1:
well,,, i was out somewhere pretty rural, and the public toilets out there are just cinder block rectangular shacks.. inside there are like two rows of holes in the ground. that's it. an open building with like 2 rows of holes in the ground,, maybe 10 holes in all.
they monkey-squat over them and defecate. no real choice u know...
so, I walked in and there was a guy, in his 20's I guess, squatted over one hole doing his business while enjoying a cigarette of course. funny thing was his friend was standing right next to him and they were having a merry conversation. :-)
nope,, privacy and personal space as Concepts simply Do Not Exist in ML. (if anyone tells u different, they are seeing chiner as presented to laowai)
Nope. Japanese are 10000 times more private than us.
xinyuren:
good point. and they would never stare a foreigner down in public. that is considered dishonorable. They are one of the few asian cultures that still have sense of honor.
They invade your privacy because they are dullards, and they think you are unable/unwilling to object to the intrusion as a lone foreigner. Then we surprise them by taking offense, and more extreme than they'd imagine, because privacy is less sacred here. But it does exist to an extent.
I have had the contents of my shopping basket handled and discussed when waiting in line at the check-out.
I have no idea what is so interesting about fruit and water.
When i glance to see what they have, in return, people have got all defensive.
Sinobear:
I can top that one!
Spring Festival 2000. I'm in Huizhou for three months (cold, but humid). Since I was stuck there for SF although I lived in Beijing at the time, I decided to splurge on some things for my temporary apartment.
Went to (at the time) the only 'real' supermarket. Bought a butcher knife, an extra-large towel (because the one I had would never dry) and a lot of drain cleaner (I guess a yeti used to live in the apartment before me and all the drains were plugged).
I'm walking to the checkout and there, in the very same aisle, is a bloody cameraman and reporter, interviewing people about their CNY purchases. I was spotted, reporter grabbed my shoulder and tried to turn me around. Whilst releasing a stream of obscenities, the cameraman focused on the contents on my basket.
Must have made interesting news that night.
ScotsAlan:
I have had people rummage through my tackle bag trying to see what my rod looks like.
But I don't mind that, us fishermen are always interested in each others fishing tackle
I think it stems from two things.... religion and class.
The church told us anything to do with our naughty bits was bad. And only our spouse is allowed to see each others naughty bits.
Class.... well.. because the gentry did not want to mix with the great unwashed.
China had at least 3 or 4 decades in the 20th century where both were effectively banned. Privacy is a bourgeoisie thing.
The discussion of privacy has come up often in classes, so I've gotten the opinions of well over a hundred Chinese over the years, and most agree that staring is impolite, and so is looking into bags, reading over your shoulder, taking pictures without permission, and much of the other things complained about here.
The problem is that there are two sets of rules. You have the rules for "Us" and for "Them". Westerners are "Them". While Chinese would consider it rude to rummage through a Chinese stranger's shopping bag, and ask questions about the contents, they would find it totally acceptable to do so to a non-Chinese.
It's like how most of us, if we were curious about the sex of a kitten, would not consider it a terrible breech of etiquette to flip the furball over, and peek at his/her bits and pieces. However, if we were curious as to the sex of a human baby, we usually don't grab the furlessball, flip it over, and stare at its junk (Chinese split pants tend to make this easier, by putting it all on public display, thus making it clear as to if the baby is a boy or girl. How kind of them). That's because we have one set of rules for humans, and another set of rules for non-humans.
Checking out the genitals of a human without permission is generally considered an invasion of privacy, but doing the same for a non-human is acceptable. For the Chinese, staring at Chinese, or rummaging through their stuff is rude, but doing the same for a non-Chiense is acceptable.
Eorthisio:
Yep, Chinese stare at foreign nationals all the time but try to stare at them and you will get a best a "Do you have a problem?" and at worst a fist in your face. This is something I observed along the years too.
timjames:
So it's a double standard, great. I guess Chinese do not abide by the golden rule?Do unto others as you would have done to you. Way too logical for them, requires thought, and consideration. I appreciate your insight, because you have talked to a lot of Chinese people about this. Now I understand the thinking behind the action. Now I really hate them,lol.
Actually, privacy is no longer a western concept. Nobody has any privacy any more thanks to the National Securititty Agency.
timjames:
Securititty? Is that a reference to a news story I read about the NSA passing around nude pics of people in the office that they found while performing various acts of national security?
I used to live in Guangzhou and it wasn't so bad. Sometimes I see people from very rural parts (you can tell by the way they dress) working in a big city for the first time. These are the people who will likely stare, point and talk about foreigners (westerners I mean). City folks are already so used to seeing foreigners they couldn't care less. Now that I am in Chongqing, it's a little different. In the district where I live, there are people who've never been outside of their hometown before. Seeing whites and blacks in their midst is something of an oddity. They are more curious than rude, and of course Chinese curiosity isn't the same. They want to touch, see, ask and check it out - how is it that there are people who look so different? Because I understand their dialect, it's easy for me to listen in and mostly it's just harmless banter. After a few minutes, the subject usually change to something else, like money and how to acquire more of it in a short time.
Is being nosy a western concept?
If you think the west respects privacy, then your mom must have dropped you on the head as a child. The west publishes people's birthdays, addresses, and phone numbers on the internet for anyone who pays to see it. There's a website called intelius who sells it, but there are also many other sites that sell people's personal information. These websites acquire westerners phone numbers, dob, and addresses from various sources such as banks. They will even get your details from doctors offices. It's a sad say when western doctors are selling patient's details to information brokers. Not only that, the west has a problem with humiliating people. Many western newspapers publish mugshots of those who were arrested. In the west, they preach guilty until proven innocent, but the reality of it is, they are publishing mugshots of people who haven't even been convicted yet. There are also many websites who specialize in posting peoples mugshots. If you want them to take your picture off their site, you have to pay them $300. What's worse, websites like facebook collect people's pictures, and id's. I wonder what they're doing with all that information. Want to use facebook anonymously? tough. Whenever Chinese people hear about how unprivate the west really is, they are shocked, particularly with the mugshots thing. It is also a known fact that immigration agents at airports in amerika, kanada, australia, nz, and europe go through passengers cell phones, and computers regularly, looking for dirt. i have yet to see anyone in the 3 world do something that invasive. anyone who has traveled can confirm this. you are also much more likely to be searched entering a western country like kanada. not only do they go through all your luggage, they ask you a ton of questions like "where do you work, how long are you going to be here for, whered you get your money from. who are you meeting. who do you know here". the questioning, and suspicion highlights exactly how intrusive, and nosy the west actually is. they can make all the laws they want, but the reality is, you should know that your rights wont be protected in any western country. cops, agents, and judges just do whatever the hel they want. if you dont like it, youll probably be beaten like the millions of people seen in the videos online. do you need me to post some for you? unless you are living under a rock, you know this.
Scandinavian:
"The West" ... has laws that protect privacy. Generally your generalization suggests you have never been outside of China. Nice try.
hippy:
what a joke man. you know how easy it is to get a warrant from facebook to get your ip. once they get ur ip, they can also get another warrant for your address from your telecom. anyone who thinks the west protects privacy is delusional. like i said son. there are dozens of western websites who do nothing but sell your address, phone number, and date of birth. they even list your relatives. youre pretending like the west protects privacy, but i know for a fact you have looked up your own name on the internet, and seen that either your address, or phone number is out there for the world to see
retiredinchina:
Some of us in the west carry 2 or more passports, id's in other names, property listed in trusts or LLC names and diplomat drivers licenses. Privacy is like a war, you have to pick up the gun and pull the trigger of be left dead on the battlefield. There are many things you can do but bitching about it is not the answer. There are 2 million people living in RV's around America every day, most of them have an address for South Dakota, good luck finding them.
retiredinchina:
you get a warrant for the internet provider, not facebook, many people don't use facebook which will be as dead as yahoo soon it they don't give up and hand control to China to save his dead company, usually the internet service provider will provide the address for the ip address, this is done regulary for copyright infractions unless you use a vpn or proxy to circumvent the laws.
hippy:
no matter how trivial the reason, cops in western countries can get your ip address from facebook, google, microsoft very easily. they can also get your physical address very easily from the telecoms. if western cops really hate you, they can dig up your phone records, pictures, gps locations through android, and ios. this is why amerika controls operating systems so strictly. you ever notice there are no popular chinese, or even european operating systems? this is to facilitate western intelijence ajencies to get your data easily. it's also how dominique strauss khan got banged up. if u remember.
ambivalentmace:
I don't use facebook, google or microsoft, you really need to adapt to your environment, I recently switched my email address to switzerland, again as retiredinchina said a warrant is needed to the internet provider, now if your stupid enough to use android or smartphones which I do not use, you deserve the consequences.
Just wait till all the tax dodgers in CHina spending more money than they make in China on We chat money accounts have to explain to the CHinese government why they are not paying taxes after the factories leave for India and tariff revenue falls in half. Someone is going to find out how bad privacy can be used against you real soon. When foreign governments decide not to be suckers anymore, they start looking at getting more from the native local citizens, and they don't even have to ask for the information, these fools have put it online for anybody to see it. My mother in law just moved 700k for a property sale by We chat to her bank account, great mom, now there is a digital record for a capital gain since it was not your primary residence showing on the gps of your smartphone. Can you see where this is going?
hippy:
similar things can be said about paypal. if u r moving money through paypal, dont be surprised if u get banged up by the irs. paypal also has the ability to freeze your account for no reason at all, and keep whatever money you have in your account. former paypal employees have exposed the dodgy practices of the korporation. just do a search on any search engine for the term "paypal frozen", or "paypal suspended" and you;ll see what i mean. in addition to stealing your money, paypal also collects information for the us govt. did you know that paypal reguarly freezes customers accounts and forces them to upload their picture id and utility bills? yes, they will do that. according to former paypal employees, they will collect your information. many customers have the false hope that paypal will unfreeze their accounts after they upload their id/proof of address, but that is simply not the case. even if you do send them your information, they will still keep your account frozen, and still keep your money. why? because they can. and because they have gov backing, they know they wont ever get brought to justice. still think kapitalism works? think again. there have been many customers who have talked about paypal keeping their accounts frozen even after the customer sent id's, and utility bills. u bring up an interesting point. i have noticed that as goverments start running out of money, they will use whatever way they can to get u. the us often uses the guise of "counterorism" to crack down on people, but the reality is, they are running out of money, and will use any trick in the book to squeeze a penny out of you. this is why the us now regularly freezes credit card accounts when customers use their card abroad, and requires customers to notify banks before they use their atm abroad. they want to know your every move. the us has also become much more agresive at nabbing people abroad by globally monitoring all bank accounts of amerikan citizens. most banks in the world will ask if you were born in amerika, if you say yes, then they automatically turn your information over to the us rejim. even china now turns over bank customers for amerika. switzerland aint gonna save u man. switzerland was the same country that offered up roman polanski on a silver platter to the us rejim. the truth of the matter is, the swiss will bend over backwards for amerika to get small favors. android, and ios phones both have backdoors to us intelijence ajencies, so it doesnt really matter what phone you use. theyll get you. unless u use a chinese non smart phone. ios was recently in the chinese news. they ran a story on how apple collects gps locations on their users. what's more, apple collects every single wifi point that you pass through. you dont even need to connect to the wifi point, and they will record, and make note of every single wifi you come across. wonder what the us gov is going to do with all that data? and how will they use it against you
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/611815/who-needs-democracy-when-you-have-data/
Privacy is dead in China and no one got an invitation to the funeral.
i thought this was an exelent video on western privacy
https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzc4OTE2NDMxMg==.html?spm=a2hzp.8244740.0.0
This is a Norwegian website that lists addresses and phone numbers of the general public. It also lists all the other people living at your address. http://www.1881.no
