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Posts: 2536

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Q: Is prostitution in China really that bad a thing?

Before the attacks begin here me out.
The vast majority of the women in this business in China choose to do so voluntarily so they can have a better life.  Also the cultural stigmas that exist in the west are not at all the same in China when it comes to prostitution and there are many many different kinds and levels of prostitution in China.
Take a girl who is under educated because of circumstance, does she take a factory job earning 1600rmb a month or does she become a ktv/massage girl and make 5+ times that?
Most women that get into this field do it because they want to, and they can make alot more money.
As for unscrupulous pimps, as horrible as these scumbags are, how are they any different than the unscrupulous factory bosses that work young people half to death for a few dollars a day?  People get used and taken advantage of in every business there is all accross the globe unfortunatly.
Case in point: KTV girls  (disclaimer...I have friends who used to work as KTV girls and I also know business dudes who frequent these places.) Most of them are only working there to drink with men and keep them company for "tips" and nothing more. What's better, making 2000rmb at best a month at a factory working 12 hours a days 6 days a week or making 150-300rmb a night to drink with men and pour their drinks and flirt only working maybe 5 hours a day? Then there are some girls at KTV who are willing to do "extra" services if asked, and this is done only if they reach an agreement about money and services rendered.  If fact even the girls who do this will often refuse if they don't like the man or feel uncomfortable.  Let's say they do this once or twice a week, then with normal tips they could bring in 10,000+rmb a month.  This let's them send money home to family, buy nice clothes and have a nice life.  Many very much like what they do for the opportunity it gives them.
Hotel girls:  The girls that provide "services" for hotel guests.  Most of the time these are girls with a day job...maybe massage, maybe waitresses or maids, that jump at the chance to make a few extra bucks and do so quite willingly.  (I have a friend who works at a hotel).

Prostitution in China is more rampant than any other country on earth almost, so I find it ridiculous that they don't legalize and regulate it.  Think of the billions upon billions of rmb the government is losing on taxes because this business is underground. 
Chinese men will never stop wanting these services and there will never be a shortage of girls willing to provide them for the right money.
In closing I will say that people that force women into prostitution are evil bastards that should be castrated, but for those that willing enter the profession, why shouldn't they be able to it if thats what they choose?

12 years 5 weeks ago in  Lifestyle - China

 
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The truth is that the factories can be more damaging to a person's health than prostitution. Certain factory jobs put people in contact with dangerous chemicals that can kill their health in only a year or two, sometimes severely shortening their lives. They aren't told of the dangers, and are barely compensated after they find out the bad news. They're easily replaced. That's not to mention the people who get hands or fingers cut off because of reduced safety standards.

When you add in the long hours, the fact that many of them do overtime so they can send money home, they stay in dorms with many other people and eat cafeteria food every day and are lucky if they have one day off a week...I don't know, certain jobs like prostitution don't sound as bad. To me, that sounds a little wrong. But if you don't have any money, no skills, I can see why some women choose to be prostitutes instead. It's really difficult to get a job outside of your town. Because of the hukou system, you're treated like a second class citizen.

If I had grown up in China, and I was facing that choice, honestly...I don't kno w what I would choose. I know which one sounds easier. We also can't forget the concept of face. If you're a factory worker, you look like a factory worker, if you even have time to go anywhere. If you're a prostitute, during the day, you can have nice clothes, have another job. It sounds like it has more freedom, and I'm sure that's how a lot of women feel. Money is very important. Considering these things, prostitution doesn't sound half as bad as it does back home.

xinyuren:

I like your honesty in this comment. If you would consider such a career, then I won't argue your point of view. I also agree with your point about certain factories. Perhaps that's why there are laws in most countries regarding factory conditions.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Well said, kitty :)

12 years 5 weeks ago
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thedude:

Excellent points jnusb416.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

I'm glad I will never have to make that decision. Sex is not on my priority list, never has been, never will be. Despite what some people think, not every person on this planet desires to have sex. Sure, I suppose it is an instinctual thing, but I guess I don't have very strong instincts, because I could live the rest of my life without it. One of the most annoying things everybody says is "It will change when you meet the right person," as if they're comforting me. I don't think they're right, and honestly, it only used to bother me because people made it sound like something was wrong with me. Sex and sexuality is a very complicated issue. Sometimes I just feel like everybody, good or bad, right are wrong, are almost like animals and can't control themselves. I know my view is different from a lot of people. I can see how people can become unattached from their emotions relating to such things. I can see how some people can argue that sex is different from love, or perhaps a different kind of love. I can also tell that different people view sex and love in different ways from each other. Humans are complicated, and so is our sexuality.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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crimochina:

excellent point jnus xinyu ask yourself this. we often hear about high suicide rates within certain professions. but the sex industry is not one of them. porn or prostitution. the problem from the prostitution industry comes from the fact that it is illegal. in china females are unfairly targeted over the male bosses and johns. the illegality of it keeps women in a second class role. they do the work and get the smallest cut

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

I give you an example. I am the head of a hypothetical household with several children (boys and girls). One of the children starts practicing something that is detrimental to their health and against house rules. Something serious, not petty. I have two choices. I can change my rule to better support my errant child. This may provide a temporary comfort, but what statement would it make to my other children? If the rule is truly for the benefit of my family, this would be a bad decision.  I would rather discourage my children as much as possible by giving the rulebreaking child their due punishment.  A country's laws are a symbol of what it stands for. The majority of the countries in this world will not stand up for prostitution, at least in principle. I believe that is an admirable stand. The problem is not the law. you have it backwards. The problem is the ones breaking the law. If no one broke the law, then there would be no problem. BTW, the knife cuts both ways. Lawbreakers will always break the law. Just because the govt. regulates something, doesn't mean everyone will comply. It is my bet that even if prostitution is legalized, men will still be in control (and will abuse) the prostitutes. The men are holding the money.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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crimochina:

the law is not always correct. usa weed laws are based on outdated studies that were bias and the tobacco industry pays politicians money to keep it that way. if it is your children that is different it is your job as a parent to raise them as you see fit. as adults they should be free (legally to make their own decision). just becoz sth is against the law does not mean it is wrong. just becoz sth is legal does not mean it is right either. this is my last post on this but it was good to have an intelligent convo on sth.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Same here, crimo.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

But you see, punishing that child may not do any good because you didn't get to the root of the problem. If the kid does drugs, you'd have to stop him from getting access. Otherwise he will keep getting drugs. If the kid is cutting himself, you can take away the knives, but that won't stop him from hating himself. Punishing people doing an illegal act like prostitution doesn't stop other people from doing it. Some people don't do it because it's not their thing, they're the "good" kids that probably wouldn't do it even if their "brother" did. Obviously people do certain things for a reason, even if it hurts them. The benefits must outweigh the negatives for them. Love can be that way too. Parents make sacrifices for their children, wives make sacrifices for their husbands. Prostitution being illegal is like banning the bad behavior of your child. The problem is, you're not all-seeing. Kids get away with a lot of stuff their parents don't know about. So while you think you're doing a good job of punishing your kid, maybe they've already done this bad behavior many times without you knowing. They get caught once, they suffer through your punishment, they don't care because they know they can get away with it again when you're not looking. The only way to know your kid is behaving all the time is to watch him like a hawk, much like a police state. However, your kid would then lose respect for you because you didn't really help him or understand why he did what he did. He won't listen to you anymore. Banning something and then punishing someone for it is just cleanup control. There's no prevention going on, there's no problem solving. Therefore the problem behavior will continue.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Wow, Jnus, I really don't know how to reply to you. A parent's job is to apply guidlines, principles and restrictions on children AND teaching the benefit of following them. If a parent is not consistent with their rules and prone to compromise their principles, they are absolutely teaching their children the wrong lessons. You seem to think punishment is a bad thing. Punishment is key to learning. If there are no bad consequences for our actions, no matter what age we are, we do not learn from the bad choices we make. I am totally against letting a child make their own choice about right or wrong. It is the parental role to make that choice for them and teach them why it is so.  Do you even get the analogy to a government's role in society?

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

"If a parent is not consistent with their rules and prone to compromise their principles, they are absolutely teaching their children the wrong lessons." You mean...the Chinese government? We're still talking about prostitution in China, right?

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

This principle applies to any higher authority. A nation's laws should be consistent and should not be easily bendable. They should be enforced without prejudice and the public should be educated on how the law works. Does this sound basic and reasonable to you?

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

Of course that sounds reasonable. Unfortunately, that's not how it works here. Unless you want to discuss prostitution in China regarding how the government actually acts, rather than how you think it should act, I don't think we can continue.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Of course we can't continue. That's off topic. Read the top of the page. That analogy wasn't even for you, it was answering crimo. He understood what I was saying.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

We are getting a little OT here, and it would be better in the forum, but what the hell :p I can't totally agree with the last couple of points brought up. Governments, like parents, aren't the wells of wisdom that they are often looked upon to be. They make mistakes - sometimes, incredibly BIG mistakes. As I'm sure we'll all agree, there are many people who should never be parents, and many people who should never have been allowed to govern in any form. Part of my reasoning is exactly what Xin brought up - principles. We all have them. We usually stick to them. We tend not to compromise them. But almost never do we bother to question them... where do they come from? What do they mean? Are they really worth holding onto? Are they the best? For that matter, do they even make any sense? Often, principles are based upon tradition... and, like tradition, can be very very out-dated. Some religions ban the eating of pork. Way back when the rule was made, it made sense - poor sanitation, high chance of disease. Now, we've fixed those issues. Should those people stick with this ban? Xin, you did mention about teaching lessons, and right and wrong. How about, teaching a person to decide for themselves that which they consider to be right and wrong? (I don't know about you, but I don't appeal to a higher authority to tell me what's what).

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Is this in regard to prostitution? Not one person here has voiced that they think prostitution is good. All have said it is bad, including you. Noone here wants their family, wives or friends to be prostitutes. So it seems the right principle is very clear. China stands by this principle as well as most other countries. Some of you still seem adamant on taking care of those who break the law/principle (usually lawbreakers are sent to jail, right?) instead of enforcing it. As for teaching my children to decide for themselves, that is the parents job. But they certainly won't be deciding for themselves while they live in my household! My house, my rules! When they are old enough to leave, they are old enough to make their own rules. As for society deciding, you are getting into political territory. But even a democratic society needs laws. You can't let everyone decide if they will obey traffic lights or how much taxes they will pay. It has already been decided democratically that prostitution is not an acceptable trade in America. Persons can individually decide to obey or break the law.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

RE: prostitution... hang on, I didn't do a blanket "it is bad".. I qualified it... "with this society the way it is, it's not a good choice!" That's COMPLETELY different to saying "It's bad"!

You're right, no-one here has said "prostitution is good"... but most of us here HAVE indicated that they think "prostitution is acceptable"... right-wrong, good-bad... these are things only a couple of people have even mentioned!

I also think, most of us here would choose to say "prostitution isN"T bad"... I wouldn't want a significant female person in my life to choose that career path - because of how women are treated in this current society! Change society, and perhaps!

I also don't judge women in my life who choose to have free sex with guys they know (or don't know). (well, not unless I'm interested in them, and they're passing me up :( )! If a person is willing to have sex for money, or a few drinks, or a nice lifestyle, or an ipad, or iphone, or whatever... who am I to judge? Even if (and that's a BIG 'if') she's getting hurt by it...

RE: law-breakers... well, I really do hope you admit that there are laws which are just plain wrong (at least in some people's eyes). For example, it was a law that you could be conscripted into the armed forces in times of war. Those people who chose not to were put in prison - they refused to kill another person, or be a part of the killing even indirectly. Likewise, just being gay was illegal in some countries (including my own for some time). Should homosexuals go to jail because that's the law??

Laws should be for the protection and safety for the majority of the people (eg, stopping murderers and rapists, traffic laws). If it's not looking after that, then it should be contributing to a better society in ways that ALL people can access and enjoy, in one form or another (eg, tax for education, roads, etc). But, if it's my life, and it doesn't have a detrimental effect (a REAL one - not a made up one), then the government and their laws should stay out of my life. This is one of those stiuations.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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12 years 5 weeks ago
 
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A very nice and orderly argument, Dude, and without the moral considerations, very valid.  Congratulations ! yes

And taking it one step further, maybe we should explore two questions, WHO doesn't want prostitution to exist in China, and WHY they do not want it to exist.

In my opinion, the first question, WHO, in China, is just the Government officials.  Even if, I am sure, they do also patronize it privately, for public consumption they want bit erradicated.  Chinese male population is not really against it, there is no moral or religious foundation (like in Western countries), and thus many patronize it in many ways, as concubines, as KTV or massage parlors, as street workers, etc.  The female population basically is not against it either, you do not hear any one making noises about stamping it out.  And of course, thaose doing it are not certainly against it.  I have befriendly with a few of those Ladies, and as you said they are just doing it because for some is the only way to make sufficient money to help family back home and have enough left for a nicer way of life.  And all do not plan to do it forever, they do it far away from hometown (so they will not be recognized and brtanded as such), and for a few years to be allowed to save enough money to go back home and open a small business there.

And as to the WHY it is done, again in my personal opinion, it is basically two things.  One because it has always being said that prostitution is an evil or a sin, and a result of capitalism.  And since in communist regimes there is no capitalism, can not be any prostitution legally.  And two would be a question of "face", officials gain "face" with populace by destroying prostitution rings that "exploit" younger Ladies and force them to use their bodies.

It would be interesting to see if any reader agrees or expands the though6ts expressed here.

Shorty:

I'm down with the Dude. Your argument is more than valid - its realistic and practical. Prostitution is a "diversionary problem" something the government will use for its own convenience to divert people's attention away from their massive corruption.

11 years 26 weeks ago
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12 years 5 weeks ago
 
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Is it a bad thing?  Never had the urge to use the service personally, but I'm about the same as you as judging just how "evil" it is.

Why they don't legalize it:  Since it is looked down apon in the West, then the government wants to make sure it looks good on the surface (same reason why they have some many laws that aren't actually inforced).  Yeah the government is loosing potential tax money, but the guys running the government are making more than enough in bribe money to look the other way (and how many political figures would want to loose money that comes directly in their own pockets just so the country can make more money).

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12 years 5 weeks ago
 
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I myself have never ventured into it. and that is my choice.
I do feel simpathy for the girl who comes to another country as a student and resorts to this line of work to support herself and get on with her studies.
a means to a end I guess
Its not that its the easy way out but with poor english skill it maybe the only option to them.
If it is at their own free will so be it.  to each their own 
Just get the bastards that push people into it
However I would rather see these young ladies better educated with skills before they go abroad so as to give them more choices of employment in other industries.

but what ever the circumstances I wouldn't judge the girls

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12 years 5 weeks ago
 
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I really wish they would legalize prostitution. Honestly, it's about safety and security. In countries where it is legal, it's regulated. They are informed of the risks they are taking, and they get regular checkups for STDs. I'm sure it's a lot safer too. I also think it would take away some of the stigma, knowing that they are concerned with safety and health of all involved. Personally, I would never do something like that, but that's my choice. I think that people should be more responsible about it.

As for the chances of it being legalized here, unlikely. It's not about religion, it's about image. As long as the government does just enough to make it look like they're doing their job, enough to keep people feeling happy enough with their lives...isn't that what they do? I think it would be one of the last countries in the world to legalize it, even after more religious countries would.

xinyuren:

When society legalizes something, they are saying that it is OK. Do you think selling your body for cash is OK? Most people don't. The day when most people feel it is OK to demoralize someone in this way, will be a sad day indeed.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

Well, I'm not God, I can't decide what is good and bad for everyone. The law does try to do what is best for everyone (or at least the majority). And to me, the number one priority here should be safety. Prostitution has been around for as long as people have been around. Making it illegal has not stopped or even slowed it down. I'm worried about the safety and health of these women. Are you saying it's better this way, where they are not educated or get checkups? You have to see, legalizing it makes it the lesser of two evils. Some things can't be stopped, the world will never be a perfect place. So at least we can try to make it safer, even if we don't like it. If it's the woman's choice to be a prostitute, so be it. It's her body, it's her decision.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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kchur:

That's laughable, xinyuren. It's legal for me to pick my nose, but that doesn't mean that Queen Elizabeth wants me to. Maybe making something legal just means society believes that it's not the government's business in a free country. You've been in China too long.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

@kchur - you are so shortsighted. Prostitution is a multibillion dollar business. If government legalizes it, what will stop corporations from promoting and advertising it? When was the last time you saw a billboard that said, "we don't condone this product, but please buy from us"? You can be sure of one thing: If it is legal, it will be sold as something desireable and good. If that isn't encouraging, I don't know what is.
BTW, I have absolutely no political stance on the legalization.  I am merely answering the OP's question, "...is it so bad..?"

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

@Janus - Will legalizing encourage more young women to join the ranks of damaged goods? Clearly thinking about this, you have to say yes. How will that affect the next generation's thinking about women? Have you thought about that? So you have a new generation of men thinking that emotionally battering a girl (as long as you pay her) is acceptable behavior. Wow. How is that an improvement?  There are no two evils.... The evil is making a formal statement that this is really acceptable in a civil society.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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kchur:

Have you ever been to a country where prostitution is legal and regulated, such as Germany or half of Australia? You would barely notice. Just like nose picking isn't necessarily prevalent in countries where nose-picking is legal. Taboos are a lot older than governments, and a lot more powerful.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

@kchur - Then I take it you are of the opinion that prostitution does no harm to the prostitute. It's a "win-win" situation, as I once heard someone say. In that case, I guess you have no problem with your gf or wife sister becoming a prostitute since she "wins".

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

"Evil"??? Prostitution is now 'evil'? Gee, I'm glad I don't live in that world! If you want to talk about 'evil', let's start discussing how one human can judge another based on nothing more than their own beliefs, and thus, they feel it gives them the right to not only denigrate that person, but also to control them. THAT little evil has caused more pain and suffering across the WHOLE planet - to ALL forms of life - than prostitution ever did!

12 years 5 weeks ago
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kchur:

That's a straw man, xi. If you read my previous posts, you'd find that I'm pretty iffy about legalized prostitution. But I am strongly - as a published historian and person who's lived in a number of countries - against the idea that laws always determine or even reflect the will of society, especially in an unfree country. That's just horse hockey.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

kchur- I agree with you there. The legalization of it and the right and wrong of it are two separate issues. But I still believe that there is good reason modern society has rejected legalization with few exceptions.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Shining brow - it seems you need to read my posts more carefully. I was responding to Jnus. It was she who mentioned "two evils". It was I who said that contributing to the degeneration of women is evil.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Xin... no, I read it right... While I agree that 'denigrating women' would be an evil, I don't see prostitution is (by definition) denigrating to women (although, obviously, it can be...). You, however, DO see it that way, hence you are saying (and have said... I'm fairly sure amongst this mass of letters and spaces) that prostitution IS evil. You see, I took your intended meaning, and not the literal meaning, of those words :)

12 years 5 weeks ago
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12 years 5 weeks ago
 
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one of the most important tools to controling a population is to control sex. i dont know who wrote the book on this but this can be seen with any organization that tries to control a group of people. 
*no sex before marriage
*sex is only for procreation
*homosexuality is strictly forbidden

these rules are from which organization?

prostitution falls into this. and becuase this is not really bad govs and organizations make up lies about this profession. such as, the women are forced into it or that prostitution is the same as the child sex slave thing. 
if you talk to females here they will tell you that every single hooker has STDs .  

(coffee hasnt kicked in yet) but in my humble opinion prostition is simply a method to control a population as part of the greater "control sex" because we are all human and need sex. so by making people feel guilty or shame about their sexually desires people become easier to control.

Shining_brow:

I actually wrote up a big spiel about this, in a similar (more patriarchal controlling) way, but hit the wrong button, and it was gone! But, basically, it was something like this. Need to add in the bit that says 'Men must be the controllers'.... after all, how can you tell if a guy has had sex? You can't! Sex is about controlling women....

12 years 5 weeks ago
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crimochina:

damn straight shining these rules are imposed on women. making prostitution illegal is a way to keep women from controlling it and being independent

12 years 5 weeks ago
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12 years 5 weeks ago
 
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   I respect you guy's opinion, but there is a big problem with prostitution that noone really addresses.  It does serious harm to the prostitute.  You can argue that these girls were damaged before they chose the profession, but the fact still remains that selling your body for sex takes an enormous mental and emotional toll.  So the dilemna is:  Do you want to contribute to the emotional degradation of another human being?  Does society want to take responsibility by legalizing it?

   the dude mentions that it is her choice.  I say that doesn't matter.  It is the choice of the individual to smoke or take drugs or do anything harmful to themselves, but am I being a good neighbor or good human being by perpetuating their actions, even encouraging them?  Think of the mental state a person has to be in to resort to selling their body (their most valuable possession!) for a little cash.  Especially for a woman, whose emotionals are so tied into the sex act.  How dehumanizing and demoralizing!  She is not doing it because she likes it and whether she realizes it or not, her business is changing her.  Her view of men, relationships, life... all drastically changed for the worse.  She is now no different than a pint of milk or sack of potatoes.  And every John contributes to her breakdown.  They add to her problems.  Honestly, how can any civilized person think this is ok?  Sex is supposed to be something beautiful shared between partners with mutual affection for each other.  Prostitution turns it into something invasive to the woman, as invasive and damaging as a bullet wound.

I've heard the arguments that some women are lazy and this is a much easier way to make more money; that they have nothing else to turn to; that they are uneducated; that they send the money back to family.  All of these arguments evade the main and most important issues.  Prostitution is a crime against humanity.  It can turn a special, unique individual into a cheap commodity and any government that sanctions it is making a statement that such women are worth no more than the few bucks the John buys them for.

In my eyes, women and their bodies are sacred.  Sex is a beautiful act that leads to a miracle of procreation.  Allowing it to be a legal institution will encourage more girls to trap themselves in this business and with the money that can be made, it will not be easy for them to escape.  No matter how you try to dress it up (and it seems the majority of men commenting on this topic will try to), it is a sordid business.  There is no classy way to sell your soul.  Prostitution seems to work fine for the men who buy the services.  But they take away from the girl much more than any amount of money can replace.
   

thedude:

I can appreciate your opinion. But culturally sex is much different in China. Most women in relationships or marraiges will have sex with their partners more out of a sense of duty instead of for love or enjoyment. So if a woman here views sex as a means to an end (utilitarian) to have a boyfriend or husband, how is that any different? There is no question that prostitution can have a high emotional price for women involved, but it is not the same as back west, because the act of sex is percieved differently here by most women.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Perception has nothing to do with it! Does it make a difference how a westerner or Chinese person perceives a bullet wound? How will perception change the damage it does? You still don't get the point? By buying her body, you are causing very real and tangible damage to her. Are you arguing that it is ok as long as she thinks it's ok? It's not ok in the west, but it's ok to hurt a Chinese girl? Please tell me what perception has to do with your responsiblity to a fellow human.

In answer to your question.  Couples in a relationship usually have sex out of love.  She may not enjoy it or they may be having relationship problems, but that is another topic.  Sex is in it's proper context in a loving relationship.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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thedude:

Ok let me make one thing clear, I have not nor will I ever participate in this industry. But that being said, do you think making prostitution illegal is going to make it go away? Has the war on drugs been successful? Is calling it quits on the war on drugs and legalizing and regulating drugs condoning their use? No, it is simply an acknowlegement that making them illegal causes more harm than good. Yes ideally sex should be between 2 people who wish to express their love for each other. I also want world peace but I am not so idealistic as to believe it's possible.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Now you're changing your own topic. You asked if prostitution is so bad. I answered your original question. You are now talking about something different.  As I said before, making it legal makes a strong statement that it is ok.  Clearly most people do not think it's OK.  Here is a test.  Would you encourage your wife, child or sister  to be a prostitute?  90% of men would say no.  There is your answer.

Edit:  Add to the fact that you will be legally opening up a can of worms.  You want to make it legal to buy a girls body?  Ok, so now I can do what I want with her.  If I batter her, is it ok as long as she agrees?  Legalizing opens the door to even more sordid activities.  It cheapens the worth of a woman.  We have the state's approval to treat a woman like a piece of property (for 300 yuan an hour).

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

I wouldn't condone it. I would remind them of the risks they are taking, what it could do to them. But I can't physically stop them, and I would love and support my family and friends no matter what. It is not my decision to make. They lead their own lives. Of course, if it was my daughter, and she was underage, that would obviously be a different story. You can't rule people's lives. But, if someone I knew were to go into that profession, I would hope it would be in a safe environment, and legalizing it would be the safest way to go.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

@Jnus - You are also evading. I asked, would you encourage your loved one to enter into prostitution? Because if you are on the side of legalization, that's exactly what it means. You are saying it's OK. Would you tell your children or your sister it's OK? Most people would not. If not, why do you think it's OK for someone else's daughter to be a hooker? There are very good reasons why civilization has not adopted legalization. Because a government should care for its people, not tear them down.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

Saying something is acceptable is not the same as encouraging it. This is one of those touchy subjects, like abortion. If you make it illegal, it won't stop it, it will just mean more illegal activity. There are some things that can't be outlawed, even if they're unhealthy, such as alcohol. They tried, and it was a disaster. In my opinion, it should be up to the woman whether she wants to or not, it is her body. If there are laws protecting her, I'm pretty sure she will have more control over herself.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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thedude:

xinyuren you are clearly on a moral crusade and not willing to be objective on this topic. Instead of beating a dead horse let's just agree to disagree on most of your points. Some I will concur with, but not most.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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DaBen:

Making it legal and encouraging it are two different things. I enjoy the fact I can legally enjoy a drink, that doesn't mean I would shove a bottle into my son's hand, saying " Be a man. It'll put hair on your chest" All I would do, I make sure to inform him and support him in his decision when he becomes of age. If my daughter chooses said profession, all I can do is support her (knowing there will be times she may need all the support I can give). But I would want her in a controlled, safe, legal areas. Actually I'm sure I would prefer it to the hazardous, no paying jobs like coal mining. Or the mental stress for selling your body for even less when doing experimental clinical trails.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

"Sex is supposed to be something beautiful shared between partners with mutual affection for each other"... no, sex is for the continuance of the species... been that way for billions of years, after evolution figured out that a single organism self-replicating wasn't advantageous enough for that species to continue...

Besides, If you REALLY felt this way, you wouldn't have any issues with divorce :D Nor is marriage a requirement.

"A crime against humanity"..... please, making those sorts of statements only sounds like you're an blind religious nut! And blind religious nuts get ignored... hopefully by the people who actually have the intelligence to make proper and suitable laws to govern the various states we live in. If you want to convince us of an argument - do it! Use good reason, not ridiculous outcries!

Procreation isn't a 'miracle'... it's a fact of life - well, most life. Anything that's not a bacteria or virus, at any rate... turning it into something holy won't ever change that fact.

Oh, btw, how did you jump from the body to the soul? Don't you know that they are 2 separate things? Your body will, actually, die. Your soul, however, after your body dies, will continue... how can you sell your soul, when all you're doing is using your body? If you're going to enter into that line of thought, you'll need to do some really good arguing!!!

12 years 5 weeks ago
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crimochina:

xinyu: i strongly disagree w/ you i have met and known many women who worked as a prostitute to pay for college (in different countries including china and the states) they knew what they were getting into and they enjoyed sex. they did their time finished up got into their careers and are happy normal people. it is not my neighbors job to take the cigar out of my mouth. it is not my neighbors job to assert their morals over me. you are missing one clear fact. your moral beliefs only apply to you. you can can not enforce your morals on others. if you believe smoking weed is bad, it is not your business if the guy across the street decides to smoke in their home. their choice does matter! you "choice" applies to you. my "choice" applies to me. for you, being a prostitute is emotionally degrading. let me ask you this, how many people need therapy after being a soldier and going to war and having to kill other people. according to your logic we should stop people from choosing to be soldiers. i have made many bad decisions in my life that does not mean i should not have the right to choose. have you been perfect in deciding what to do in your life?? we are all human beings sometimes we make choices that turn out to be the wrong choice but we learn from it and do better in the future.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Crimo - "according to your logic we should stop people from choosing to be soldier" Actually, that'd be good! If EVERYONE stopped choosing to be a soldier, then there wouldn't be any wars! :) (using the term 'soldier' in a looser definition of a person choosing to take up violence and agression outside of DIRECT and IMMEDIATE physical safety)

12 years 5 weeks ago
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crimochina:

shining: i did not even to think of the mercenaries. or how about the a hedge fund manager that steals millions from retirees . or a used car salesman . or a defense attorney that works on behalf of rapist and murders and lies for a living. (i'm not against these professions, i'm just applying xinyu's logic) do we make these professions illegal?

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Xinyuren, I have this burning question which I DESPERATELY need you to answer... have you ever ACTUALLY met and had long in-depth discussion with (gotten to know) an ex-prostitute, from a country in which it was fully legal and not the social stigma you're trying to keep it being. Such as, one from the Netherlands, perhaps?? If so, please, tell us! If not, then you'd better take your vivid imagination of their sense of self-worth, and perceptions of men, back to your other delusions.

@Crimo... oh yeah, I get what you're saying (and agree)!  I'm just pointing out, that of ALL the examples you could have used..... :p

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

So many comments to address. One at a time:
@Jnus - Perhaps you missed a previous comment. I will repeat. Legalizing of prostitution, like any big business will lead to broad commercialization.  And what is a commercial but encouragement to participate? This is inevitable. It can't be stopped in a free society. So legalization is in essence, encouraging (at least in this case). As I have said, I don't have a stance on this politically, but I sure don't want to be responsible in this manner.
@ the dude - I'm not crusading. Last time I checked, you solicited for answers. I'm just giving you what you asked for. I'm always up for an engaging topic. If you don't want an answer, you probably shouldn't ask. Agreed to disagree.
@shining brow - When I was young, I thought sex was just a cheap way to have fun. Then I got married and experienced something new: making love. It was an epiphany. It blew sex right out of the window (no pun intended). I get your point of view. I had it maybe 25 years ago. But I am in a different place now, so I see no value in the type of sex you are going on about. I'm no longer married, but I see women in a different light and I would never willingly do harm just because I can't control my little brother.
@ crimo - If you think your friends experience in the sex industry had no affect on her, then you really have your head in the sand. Perhaps you think the effect wasn't for the worse. Well, that is where we have to disagree. The truth is, the sex industry doesn't produce better people, it degrades people. Sure, we have freedom of choice in this society which is why I have no political leaning on this issue. But ask yourself where freedom of choice ends? Should we abolish traffic laws and let people make their own choice? She we let children play with fireworks (American question) or get rid of the zoning laws and building codes? It's a slippery slope. I'm not for forcing morality down anyone's throat. But laws are there to protect it's citizens. I think women need such protection. I always ask myself a question about law: If everyone followed this law, would the world be a better place or a worse place? If I can answer the former, it's probably a good law.


And to the answer Shining brow desperately wants to hear: I know several prostitutes which I considered at least nominal friends. None from Germany, but that is besides the point. Human nature is the same, no matter where you live. If you get shot in the arm, it will hurt a German just a s much as an American. My argument has always been that the sex industry , though lucrative, has a negative affect on prostitutes (and I'm not talking about moral stigmas). If this weren't so, many many more women would be involved. But they aren't! In fact, the thought of prostituting themselves is repugnant to most women. Why is that so? Do you really think that most women are freaks inside and unconsciously want to bed multiple strange men each day? That is your dream. The reality is it is disgusting to them. Some of the prostitutes I know have confided in me of how they resorted to drinking and drugs just to get thru it. One still has nightmares about her experiences (she is still practicing). This is absolutely not the kind of career I want to stand up for.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

But Xin, while I completely agree that many (perhaps most) women just aren't cut out for prostitution (nor are most men), neither are most women cut out to be teachers, or lawyers, or psychiatrists, or any other profession. We all have different personalities. Some women are hyper-sexual, and some are a-sexual You're coming from the 'sex should be for love' camp, but deciding what is best for ALL women. yeah, there are currently girls in the industry who need to get out (if they can)... but there are also those in the industry who are quite happy to remain there - or at least stay there for a while. There are teachers who seriously need to get out of their job, too! They are damaged, desperate, but can't see a light at the end of the tunnel. "Do you really think that most women are freaks inside and unconsciously want to bed multiple strange men each day? That is your dream" Now, that is REALLY trying to put words into my mouth!!! No, it's not my dream. I have no 'dream' in this regard, other than letting women control their own bodies and emotions. Some women are happy to do that. Some men are happy to do that.... I have no thought of 'most' entering into it. And, guess what.. there are police officers, lawyers, doctors, students, and a whole myriad of other professions in which people need drugs to help them get through it... should we be judging those as well? And... the individuals vs traffic laws is a ridiculous analogy. Traffic laws DIRECTLY AND IMMEDIATELY have safety implications for ALL people in the society. As I've said before, stick to the drugs analogy, it's much closer!

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shorty:

You can't make decisions for others - only yourself.  It sounds like yu were brought up in a Christian/Catholic family/schools like I was.  I hear the same brain-washing and programming I was subjected to.  Its okay, I am not attacking you. It took me 27 years to break free and start thinking for myself.

11 years 26 weeks ago
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Xinyuren, you're Catholic, aren't you??? I hear it all through your posts. Posts which are, btw, actually full of logical errors! Not to mention moralising, and making judgements which you think are 'societal', but in fact are actually trained into us from various organisations.

Let me start with: it does serious harm to the prostitute.. Really? How? Why? Sex does harm?? No, if it did, there' wouldn't be over 7 billion humans on the planet, half of whom are female. Does taking money do harm? Well, again, capitalism, and for that matter, any form of trade, seems to throw that one out the window... Being beaten up? Well, yes, that can... but I'm going to say that's not prostitution, it's people forcing themselves upon others (much as you're trying to do here).

So - where's the 'harm'? Oh, I get it.. emotional harm from being a prostitute, and in that sense, having society shun her! Which basically means... it's YOU who are doing harm to HER! Your attitudes, saying she shouldn't do it, it's bad, it does harm...

You have likened prostitution to drugs, smoking, and other bad things... but again, fail to back up WHY it is harmful!

"Women's emotions are so tied up to sex". Well now, is that true? For ALL women? Or just most? Or, even just some?? And, what happened? Remember, all this lovey-dovey marriage and all crap is a very recent thing in human history. For HUNDRES of THOUSANDS of years, there was no such thing! AND,,, even when we DID get ourselves into marriages, most of them were for practical benefits... still not a sign of love for many millenia to come! Anyway, while I imagine such people don't exist in your world, there are MANY MANY people who do NOT have an emotional attachment to sex... are you going to force your preconceived notions onto them as well?? (Just as, there are many many people who have no interest in sex at all... does that mean they should enter into a relationship, just because of the' miracle'???)

The miracle.... really? You're kidding, aren't you? "sex in its proper context".... as I said just above, sex has been 'out of context' even since humans came along. Your argument fails!

"It's not ok in the west"... actually, yes, it is! You'd better go and check your facts on that one!

Would I encourage my significant female in my life? In this current society, hell no! If society was a lot more advanced, where attitudes such as those expressed by yourself were not hard-wired into our brains by the patriarchy from the moment we're born... yes! If that's what she wanted to do, why not??

Getting back to the 'moral' argument (HA!!!) please, please please, give me some logical, valid, and worthy argument as to why prostitution (pre-arranged business transaction in which 2 consenting adults exchange a service for goods/cash in a non-duplicitous way) is significantly different from going to a bar, buying a girl (or guy) a few drinks, then heading off somewhere to do the deed. Ok, drinks are cheaper (usually). Maybe, in some minds, this might lead to something further... but I'd say, for the most part, if you're going to be picked up that easy at a bar, you KNOW it's not likely to turn into anything permanent (unless the sex was really good!)

"Clearly most people do not think it's OK"... really? Where did you pull that statistic from? Btw, speaking of such things, do most people think that living in a matriarchal society would be better than living in the current patriarchal society??? Or have most sheeple never even bothered to think about it, nor the unthought-about consequences that has brought with it?

"Couples in a relationship usually have sex out of love."... no, they don't. They have sex out of a desire for sex. It might be with a person they love, but the actual act of sex is purely physical! Love and sex are 2 entirely different things....

"No matter how you try to dress it up it is a sordid business" - again, no, it's not. It's people like you, with opinions like yours, who think it is - and then go and tell other people that it is.

"Add to the fact that you will be legally opening up a can of worms.  You want to make it legal to buy a girls body?  Ok, so now I can do what I want with her.  If I batter her, is it ok as long as she agrees?" SERIOUSLY????? You've really got to be kidding!!! Just because I enter into a transaction in which I give her an agreed upon amount of currency for certain sexual actions performed by her, you honestly think I'm 'buying' her??? Please, come out of the Dark Ages.

And, as I'm sure other ppl on here will point out... just whose body are we talking about? I'm fairly sure it's the prostitutes. Doesn't SHE have the ultimate, final say in what happens to it? It's HER mind and HER emotions... why are you choosing to force her to not do something to it that will harm absolutely NO-ONE else??? She's probably going to have sex. She's probably going to use her sex to get things she wants (cars, ipads, iphones, safety, a home, a holiday, a man ...) - but you want it that she doesn't have that choice... she can only do what you tell her she's allowed to do with it!

(and, I'll come back for more later Laughing out loud)

xinyuren:

Well at least I don't have to guess what your opinion is.
   To answer your first question, No, I am not Catholic. I just have a deep respect for my fellow human.
   Secondly, if you think trading her body for money doesn't do harm to her emotionally and mentally, you are in the vast minority. I could list a column of ways, but you can easily ask a psychiatrist about the spirit of a person who comes from the sex industry. I have said this time and time again. Perhaps you don't think emotional trama is real. Ya, you are not a woman. It is common knowledge that sex is a very emotional experience for the average woman. Some men just don't care about this.  You say prostitution is not selling her body? That's just a matter of semantics. He is at least renting it for an hour at a time. You're pulling at straws here. What's the difference between her body and some other commodity? Well if you have to ask this question, then it says something about your character. The fact is most people do not think prostitution for their loved ones is Ok. I didn't pull it out of anywhere. Ask your friends do they want their gf or wife to be a prostitute.  How is that hard to believe that prostitution is just not a healthy profession (emotionally).  If you think otherwise, again, you are in the vast minority. If you don't recommend prostitution for your friends, why would you recommend it for others?
   True, sex is often had for just the enjoyment of it. But that is not prostitution. Prostitutes don't have sex with you because they enjoy it, no matter how much they smile and give you fake moans. You say MANY people don't have emotional attachment to sex. People like you? Ask some women how they feel. Majority of women absolutely do attach emotion with their sex. If you don't believe so, then you are in denial or you just don't know women very well. Which brings me to my final impression of your comment: You have failed to put yourself in a woman's shoes.
   You have only thought about the pleasure you derive from prostitution. Unfortunately there is another human being involved. Her body is being invaded by a strange man. Believe me, she isn't enjoying it (there are exceptions, of course) and she'd rather be making money doing something else. It is effecting her psyche adversely (she's not selling cookware, she is the product) by putting herself in your control. You can choose to believe this fact or you can hide from it, but it doesn't change it. Whether or not you have her consent, you are contributing to her reduced mental state. I know a few prostitutes. They are dead inside. They have no more respect for men or relationships. Some manage to recover, but the fact remains: Johns are part of the problem, not the solution. It seems only the men see no problem with this.

So my point remains.  Whether or not it is legal or if she consents, I refuse to lower a woman's body to the level of a product I buy at the market.  I have too much respect for life, sex and humanity.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Xin, firslty, if you really have a DEEP RESPECT for women, then why do you respect them enough to allow them to make a choice? (yes, you do sound like a Catholic...it just happens that they use similar lines of reasoning).

As it happens, in this life, I am a man! But, don't worry, this isn't my first life, so I think I can still speak from experience.

I've never been to a prostitute (in this incarnation), but I won't try and explain to people what they REALLY think and feel... As I'm sure I've indicated, the mental and emotional harm doesn't come from the prostitution, but from a) society's attitudes towards it, eg "you're evil", "you're doing a crime against humanity", and b) the lack of safety in their lives (mostly brought about by a above).

As I said, I wouldn't 'recommend' it for anyone in the society which you are trying to create. But, if the society was saner, where women were really and truly allowed to control their own bodies, then it wouldn't be the problem you're trying to make it.

Ok - selling vs renting. If I own a house, I can rip down it's walls, rip out the kitchen, leave it virtually derelict and uninhabitable. However, if I'm RENTING the house, I'm in a deep pile of you know what. Not just from the actual owner, but from the law as well. Is it REALLY a semantic difference???

I said that many people don't have an emotional connection to sex, because you said that 'women' (implying ALL women) do... I would suggest, that those women who choose to become prostitutes do NOT have that emotional connection. Because you wish to believe that ALL women do have that emotional connection, you won't let them CHOOSE to be a prostitute. What I may or may not feel is completely irrelevant! I'm not forcing my ideology onto the world around me, and expecting the law to just blindly follow along without a valid argument.

Those prostitutes that you know - where are they from? Amsterdam? A matriarchal society? Somewhere where they're not shunned and treated as scum of the earth? Why they, AS HUMAN BEINGS, are still respected, loved, treated equally? If so, I'll end my arguments right now, and say you're right!

Tell me - porn stars... do they enjoy their job? Is their psyche being seriously damaged? What is happening to them?

You know, it IS possible that some girls actually ENJOY their job! A lot of women ENJOY sex, and don't want a relationship to go with it.

Sure, the johns are a problem, but that's because society. THESE SORTS OF SOCIETIES allow it to remain a problem. It's not a problem where prostitution is not only legal, but isn't considered the evil that you think it is! There, the clients are quite respectful... grateful, even!

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Since when did I say I was anti-choice? Please don't put words into my mouth. I have no political leanings on the abolishment of prostitution laws. If a country decides to make it legal, I will respect it just like any other law. Do I think it's a good idea? no. But society has made it's choice on the matter. My point has remained the same. Selling one's body for money produces negative, not positive results to the community. There are many broken homes, maladjusted women, and even dead bodies to attest to that. I have never seen anyone. (anyone!) say that it was a shining example of a good career, but quite the opposite. If my gf chose this profession, I would be sorely disappointed and I'm sure you would be too. I call it a crime against humanity because it takes a little humanity out of someone when you can place a dollar value on their body. Not the work they do, but their actual body!

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I suggest you're anti-choice by logical extension... your reasoning seems to go that way. Most notably, in denying that a woman may actually CHOOSE to enter into that profession, of her own free will, and with full mental and emotional stability... and come out the other side.

"Selling one's body for money produces negative, not positive results to the community." Your evidence? Again, I seek evidence of a sane society, where women are seen and treated as equals, and where sex isn't seen as either a sin, nor a gift from the heavens. But as an act of human (and other animals') nature, and where prostitution isn't viewed as a 'crime against humanity' (or, at the very least, the girl isn't seen as a 'criminal against humanity').

What about Ancient Rome? Prostitution quite legal, some girls quite well respected and wealthy in the community (women still generally second class citizens though :( ) Brothels travelled with the armies for the men. Please explain how that produces a negative effect on the community. And, while you're at it, please explain The Netherlands...

Why would I be disappointed with your gf becoming a prostitute??

Btw, I don't recall saying being a prostitute was a shining example of career choice (ummm, isn't that putting words into one's mouth?) But then, there are lots of professions I'd make that claim for. I'm just choosing not to make either moralistic, nor unsubstantiated, claims about them in a public forum.

Btw, I just thought I'd point out - no, you won't 'respect' any country that legalises prostitution... you'll completely disrespect it!!

And, one last point (which has been going through my head since this thing first started),,, are you also assuming the same emotional attachment, and therefore mental destruction, that comes about from being a prostitute for MALE prostitutes as well as females??

12 years 5 weeks ago
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instant_noodles:

u ppl are totally out of your minds! i ve seen a documentary about chinese prostitutes - 90 % of them do NOT use condoms, as chinese men do not like wearing them .enjoy!

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

@Instant_noodles... while this may be true (which I for one don't really doubt), that doesn't really affect the legality of it. Well, actually, it does... if you went to Amsterdam (where it's legal), or Australia (where it's legal), or apparently even Nevada (where it's legal), it's also a part of the law that if you want her services, you MUST have protection!!! Also, the girls are regularly tested in those countries, as part of their job!

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Please show me where I denied that woman make a choice to be prostitutes? You are making a habit of putting words in my mouth. Of course they choose. And so many regret their decisions and they find it difficult to get out (because of the money). You say, let them make that choice. I say fine, that is another topic. The topic I was responding to is at the top of the page. Please read it. I know very little about the Romans and prostitutes. I am speaking about modern society. So you think the brothels following the army is good? So it is your impression that prostitution is a good thing? Were these soldiers married or bachelors? What do you think their wives would feel about the brothels? Oh, yeah. They were second class citizens. Their feelings didn't matter. Your comments are suffering from an acute lack of consideration for the woman's point of view. Most women I know would not appreciate their men frequenting a brothel. In fact, I can't even think of one.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Nobody is putting words in your mouth. You simply didn't read my comment carefully. I wasn't referring to you. It was hyperbole. If you want to discuss the legalization of it, fine with me, but don't tell me what I will and won't do. I take you at your word and i expect people I have a civilized discussion with to take me at my word. I respect the laws of every nation, no matter how ill advised I think they may be. That includes German laws on prostitution. You can have your laws, it doesn't change my personal feelings on the matter. Men prostitutes also sell their bodies for money. It is just as demoralizing to the human spirit as it is for women. I don't see how gender is a factor.

oh!  http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvhealt.htm
J
ust one link out of too many to count.  So much for it being unsubstantiated.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Xin, in my world, it's her choice - either a short-term job, or perhaps a career move to decent money - but a (sometimes) simple choice (at other times, a pretty hard choice). In your world, she's selling her soul, and going to regret it for the rest of her life, and never able to find true love and happiness again, and be mentally and emotionally damage forever after.... she's also committing a crime against humanity. THAT'S why I'm saying you're anti-choice. You're layering it with so much hellfire and brimstone, that it's no longer just something that can be simply chosen by an intelligent person to get them some money... (I figure you're still not seeing it..???)

RE: Rome. You brought up the idea that having legal prostitution was NEVER a good thing for a community. I presented you with a very long-standing community which dominated most of the known world at the time, which gave us amazing art, architecture, laws, politics, engineering, etc etc etc. Thus, indicating that legalising prostitution does NOT automatically mean the community will suffer. (FTR, most of the soldiers were not married, and likely never would - cos they'd get killed in their first battle!)

Whether the wife is happy with her husband and a prostitute or not isn't part of the argument. And, for that matter, it says a lot more about the marriage than about prostitution. (Again, let me refer you to Amsterdam... a place I've mentioned several times, and which you seem to have completely ignored...).

You quite clearly miss MY point... and my point is: if women were equal to men (or men equal to women) in all facets of society, then this whole argument wouldn't exist! We can choose to have our sex (consentingly) with whom, and how, we choose... without the moralistic overtures. Which includes, what sort of payment we accept for it (love, marriage, a house, a few drinks at a club, an expensive meal at a restaurant, a fur coat, 5 minutes of personal pleasure, or even... money!)

And, since you did bring up wives.... what about those people who are unmarried, and not in a relationship? Why can't single people can't see a prostitute ?

RE: hyperbole. This is true... you didn't say I said it. But then... I'm not seeing the point of it being said at all (ie 'shining example of a career'). After all, it's your argument that prostitution is bad, so it's not surprising. (however, there are, and have been, some shining examples of a career in the porn industry... which is very much a form of prostitution...).

Another question for you (to probably get ignored like the others I ask)... what's your take on one night stands??

(edit: gender became a factor when you said that women were emotionally tied to sex. Also, that link really does NOT help your argument at all!!! From what my broken internet is indicating, prostitution is illegal in the St Paul study she refers to. Also, the author is talking about violence against women. Prostitution - properly controlled, where the prostitutes are respected for who they are, and protected - seriously DEcreases the amount of violence that is going to occur. Violence is violence - it doesn't matter where it occurs. Again, I refer you back to Amsterdam...)

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

OK. Now I get it. free love for everybody. Everyone should feel free to have sex with anyone they like, regardless of their commitments to each other. Now I understand you. You know they tried that in the 60's. It didn't work. I get your point. No need for further discussion.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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crimochina:

instant noodles you are full of it. from someone that have used said services, each and everyone puts them on and there is no debating the issue. and please tell me the name of that doc

12 years 5 weeks ago
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crimochina:

and xinu, it is not about free love for everyone! it is about each person makes their own choice. a person should not be looked down upon becoz of their profession. a job is just a job (no pun intended)

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

if that is the case, I misunderstood. Still, I understand his point. Freedom of choice. Ultimately we all have freedom of choice in all things. We can choose to follow or break the law.  But there are good decisions and bad decisions. Again, I refer to the original poster's question. I feel prostitution is an extremely bad career decision.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Well, "poor career choice" is a much better stance to take, and one I'd probably agree with you on! Although, as Jnus has posted below, it can certainly be a better choice than other, more 'acceptable' jobs out there. Thanks Crimo - precisely my point!

12 years 5 weeks ago
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timu:

SNAP! (as they say on late night) thanks for saving me an hour or two replying to Xin. He clearly projects his own brand of morality onto others. To say that prostitution inherently damages all sex workers is like saying that all catholic clergy can rationalize pederasty! Thanks

12 years 5 weeks ago
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This place is already rape central, as long as some can pay for it, you keep the numbers down.

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The truth is that the factories can be more damaging to a person's health than prostitution. Certain factory jobs put people in contact with dangerous chemicals that can kill their health in only a year or two, sometimes severely shortening their lives. They aren't told of the dangers, and are barely compensated after they find out the bad news. They're easily replaced. That's not to mention the people who get hands or fingers cut off because of reduced safety standards.

When you add in the long hours, the fact that many of them do overtime so they can send money home, they stay in dorms with many other people and eat cafeteria food every day and are lucky if they have one day off a week...I don't know, certain jobs like prostitution don't sound as bad. To me, that sounds a little wrong. But if you don't have any money, no skills, I can see why some women choose to be prostitutes instead. It's really difficult to get a job outside of your town. Because of the hukou system, you're treated like a second class citizen.

If I had grown up in China, and I was facing that choice, honestly...I don't kno w what I would choose. I know which one sounds easier. We also can't forget the concept of face. If you're a factory worker, you look like a factory worker, if you even have time to go anywhere. If you're a prostitute, during the day, you can have nice clothes, have another job. It sounds like it has more freedom, and I'm sure that's how a lot of women feel. Money is very important. Considering these things, prostitution doesn't sound half as bad as it does back home.

xinyuren:

I like your honesty in this comment. If you would consider such a career, then I won't argue your point of view. I also agree with your point about certain factories. Perhaps that's why there are laws in most countries regarding factory conditions.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

Well said, kitty :)

12 years 5 weeks ago
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thedude:

Excellent points jnusb416.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

I'm glad I will never have to make that decision. Sex is not on my priority list, never has been, never will be. Despite what some people think, not every person on this planet desires to have sex. Sure, I suppose it is an instinctual thing, but I guess I don't have very strong instincts, because I could live the rest of my life without it. One of the most annoying things everybody says is "It will change when you meet the right person," as if they're comforting me. I don't think they're right, and honestly, it only used to bother me because people made it sound like something was wrong with me. Sex and sexuality is a very complicated issue. Sometimes I just feel like everybody, good or bad, right are wrong, are almost like animals and can't control themselves. I know my view is different from a lot of people. I can see how people can become unattached from their emotions relating to such things. I can see how some people can argue that sex is different from love, or perhaps a different kind of love. I can also tell that different people view sex and love in different ways from each other. Humans are complicated, and so is our sexuality.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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crimochina:

excellent point jnus xinyu ask yourself this. we often hear about high suicide rates within certain professions. but the sex industry is not one of them. porn or prostitution. the problem from the prostitution industry comes from the fact that it is illegal. in china females are unfairly targeted over the male bosses and johns. the illegality of it keeps women in a second class role. they do the work and get the smallest cut

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

I give you an example. I am the head of a hypothetical household with several children (boys and girls). One of the children starts practicing something that is detrimental to their health and against house rules. Something serious, not petty. I have two choices. I can change my rule to better support my errant child. This may provide a temporary comfort, but what statement would it make to my other children? If the rule is truly for the benefit of my family, this would be a bad decision.  I would rather discourage my children as much as possible by giving the rulebreaking child their due punishment.  A country's laws are a symbol of what it stands for. The majority of the countries in this world will not stand up for prostitution, at least in principle. I believe that is an admirable stand. The problem is not the law. you have it backwards. The problem is the ones breaking the law. If no one broke the law, then there would be no problem. BTW, the knife cuts both ways. Lawbreakers will always break the law. Just because the govt. regulates something, doesn't mean everyone will comply. It is my bet that even if prostitution is legalized, men will still be in control (and will abuse) the prostitutes. The men are holding the money.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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crimochina:

the law is not always correct. usa weed laws are based on outdated studies that were bias and the tobacco industry pays politicians money to keep it that way. if it is your children that is different it is your job as a parent to raise them as you see fit. as adults they should be free (legally to make their own decision). just becoz sth is against the law does not mean it is wrong. just becoz sth is legal does not mean it is right either. this is my last post on this but it was good to have an intelligent convo on sth.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Same here, crimo.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

But you see, punishing that child may not do any good because you didn't get to the root of the problem. If the kid does drugs, you'd have to stop him from getting access. Otherwise he will keep getting drugs. If the kid is cutting himself, you can take away the knives, but that won't stop him from hating himself. Punishing people doing an illegal act like prostitution doesn't stop other people from doing it. Some people don't do it because it's not their thing, they're the "good" kids that probably wouldn't do it even if their "brother" did. Obviously people do certain things for a reason, even if it hurts them. The benefits must outweigh the negatives for them. Love can be that way too. Parents make sacrifices for their children, wives make sacrifices for their husbands. Prostitution being illegal is like banning the bad behavior of your child. The problem is, you're not all-seeing. Kids get away with a lot of stuff their parents don't know about. So while you think you're doing a good job of punishing your kid, maybe they've already done this bad behavior many times without you knowing. They get caught once, they suffer through your punishment, they don't care because they know they can get away with it again when you're not looking. The only way to know your kid is behaving all the time is to watch him like a hawk, much like a police state. However, your kid would then lose respect for you because you didn't really help him or understand why he did what he did. He won't listen to you anymore. Banning something and then punishing someone for it is just cleanup control. There's no prevention going on, there's no problem solving. Therefore the problem behavior will continue.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Wow, Jnus, I really don't know how to reply to you. A parent's job is to apply guidlines, principles and restrictions on children AND teaching the benefit of following them. If a parent is not consistent with their rules and prone to compromise their principles, they are absolutely teaching their children the wrong lessons. You seem to think punishment is a bad thing. Punishment is key to learning. If there are no bad consequences for our actions, no matter what age we are, we do not learn from the bad choices we make. I am totally against letting a child make their own choice about right or wrong. It is the parental role to make that choice for them and teach them why it is so.  Do you even get the analogy to a government's role in society?

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

"If a parent is not consistent with their rules and prone to compromise their principles, they are absolutely teaching their children the wrong lessons." You mean...the Chinese government? We're still talking about prostitution in China, right?

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

This principle applies to any higher authority. A nation's laws should be consistent and should not be easily bendable. They should be enforced without prejudice and the public should be educated on how the law works. Does this sound basic and reasonable to you?

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

Of course that sounds reasonable. Unfortunately, that's not how it works here. Unless you want to discuss prostitution in China regarding how the government actually acts, rather than how you think it should act, I don't think we can continue.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Of course we can't continue. That's off topic. Read the top of the page. That analogy wasn't even for you, it was answering crimo. He understood what I was saying.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

We are getting a little OT here, and it would be better in the forum, but what the hell :p I can't totally agree with the last couple of points brought up. Governments, like parents, aren't the wells of wisdom that they are often looked upon to be. They make mistakes - sometimes, incredibly BIG mistakes. As I'm sure we'll all agree, there are many people who should never be parents, and many people who should never have been allowed to govern in any form. Part of my reasoning is exactly what Xin brought up - principles. We all have them. We usually stick to them. We tend not to compromise them. But almost never do we bother to question them... where do they come from? What do they mean? Are they really worth holding onto? Are they the best? For that matter, do they even make any sense? Often, principles are based upon tradition... and, like tradition, can be very very out-dated. Some religions ban the eating of pork. Way back when the rule was made, it made sense - poor sanitation, high chance of disease. Now, we've fixed those issues. Should those people stick with this ban? Xin, you did mention about teaching lessons, and right and wrong. How about, teaching a person to decide for themselves that which they consider to be right and wrong? (I don't know about you, but I don't appeal to a higher authority to tell me what's what).

12 years 5 weeks ago
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xinyuren:

Is this in regard to prostitution? Not one person here has voiced that they think prostitution is good. All have said it is bad, including you. Noone here wants their family, wives or friends to be prostitutes. So it seems the right principle is very clear. China stands by this principle as well as most other countries. Some of you still seem adamant on taking care of those who break the law/principle (usually lawbreakers are sent to jail, right?) instead of enforcing it. As for teaching my children to decide for themselves, that is the parents job. But they certainly won't be deciding for themselves while they live in my household! My house, my rules! When they are old enough to leave, they are old enough to make their own rules. As for society deciding, you are getting into political territory. But even a democratic society needs laws. You can't let everyone decide if they will obey traffic lights or how much taxes they will pay. It has already been decided democratically that prostitution is not an acceptable trade in America. Persons can individually decide to obey or break the law.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

RE: prostitution... hang on, I didn't do a blanket "it is bad".. I qualified it... "with this society the way it is, it's not a good choice!" That's COMPLETELY different to saying "It's bad"!

You're right, no-one here has said "prostitution is good"... but most of us here HAVE indicated that they think "prostitution is acceptable"... right-wrong, good-bad... these are things only a couple of people have even mentioned!

I also think, most of us here would choose to say "prostitution isN"T bad"... I wouldn't want a significant female person in my life to choose that career path - because of how women are treated in this current society! Change society, and perhaps!

I also don't judge women in my life who choose to have free sex with guys they know (or don't know). (well, not unless I'm interested in them, and they're passing me up :( )! If a person is willing to have sex for money, or a few drinks, or a nice lifestyle, or an ipad, or iphone, or whatever... who am I to judge? Even if (and that's a BIG 'if') she's getting hurt by it...

RE: law-breakers... well, I really do hope you admit that there are laws which are just plain wrong (at least in some people's eyes). For example, it was a law that you could be conscripted into the armed forces in times of war. Those people who chose not to were put in prison - they refused to kill another person, or be a part of the killing even indirectly. Likewise, just being gay was illegal in some countries (including my own for some time). Should homosexuals go to jail because that's the law??

Laws should be for the protection and safety for the majority of the people (eg, stopping murderers and rapists, traffic laws). If it's not looking after that, then it should be contributing to a better society in ways that ALL people can access and enjoy, in one form or another (eg, tax for education, roads, etc). But, if it's my life, and it doesn't have a detrimental effect (a REAL one - not a made up one), then the government and their laws should stay out of my life. This is one of those stiuations.

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I am just thinking that if it were legal, you could get rid of the pimp, have health inspections, provide guilt free comfort to those who are lonely and tax them like tobacco and booze. Not just in China, but everywhere.

xinyuren:

In China? Are you serious? They don't even have all those things in Germany where it's been legal for some time now. China?? You are a veteran here, you should know better than that. Legalization will only lead to Sex Factories instead of Sex Shops along the street. The Pimps will never go away. In sex legal China, the cops will be the new pimps! China???laughlaughlaugh

12 years 5 weeks ago
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GuilinRaf:

Yikes! You are right! I should have known better! No pizza for me! Seriously though, reading your post made me think about Human traficking and prostitiution. Even if legal, you would have the illegal al, er undocumented sex trade workers and those would definitely have a pimp. I stand (sit?) corrected. sad

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shorty:

Las Vegas is living proof that you are right on target.

11 years 26 weeks ago
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The irony is one of the reasons I asked this question is that after reading about the prostitution ring bust in Beijing here on echinacites, I noticed the massive rant that xinyuren went on contrary to most of other peoples opinions.
I see this has not changed.
My question was not a broad one asking if prostitution in general was a bad thing.  This was China specific.  Jnusb416 hit the nail on the head when comparing factories to prostitution. 
This was my point.  Which is worse?  Compared to what is out there for opportunities for under educated females in China, and considering many "forms" of prostitution in China are pretty mild with women having the final say (especially KTV), which is worse?
xinyuren, you refuse to see this very complicated issue objectivley and are almost obsessive in your objection to any form of prostitution based almost soley on moral grounds.  You base this opinion on a few ex-prostitutes you know.  Is that a scientific study?  Or your opinion based on a couple of second hand experiences?
Contrary to what you stated earlier, most people here that have made comments are not as you say against prostitution in everyway.   In an ideal world prostitution would not exist.  Neither would drugs or crime or war or starvation.
Family pressures for children to send money home is huge, and working in a factory sucks, and makes very little money.
THIS was my main point.  Which is worse?  Compared to the alternatives?

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I will not waiver on my point because it is a very strong one.  It is a matter of principle.  You are saying that if these girls don't sell their bodies they will starve.  I strongly disagree.  There are many favorable alternatives to prostitution.  I could choose to rob banks because it is easier to make lots of money.  I don't think society will agree to make bankrobbing legal.  But what if I used rubber bullets and didn't hurt anyone.  Insured banks would get their money back.  No.  I don't think so.
What's more, you are assuming legalization will make things better for the prostitues.  If you think this, you really don't know China.  You said some factories in China are worse than prostitution?  Well what about sex factories?  I shudder at the thought of it.  State instituted wholesale sex.

Principles are what makes humans different from animals.  We stick by them because they are what make us civil to each other.  To abandon them or compromise them because it is inconvenient to enforce them, is to let our fellow humans down.   Here is an interesting statement from the United Nations regarding this principle

The Convention states that "prostitution and the accompanying evil of the traffic in persons for the purpose of prostitution are incompatible with the dignity and worth of the human person".[

I could not have said it any bettersmiley

Shining_brow:

Well, I won't disagree with you on the 'in China' bit :) I agree with you there!!!! We'll let the rest of it go, because I think it's already been said. Other than.... actually considering one's principles is, I think, a far better thing to do than to just blindly hold on to them without any consideration of them. This is something I've had to learn from personal experience! (and yes, human trafficking is evil... and are sex factories... but In Australia, where prostitution is LEGAL, we don't have sex factories, and human trafficking is seriously looked down upon - as well as being illegal.)

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I don't think prostitution is a bad thing. And thats not big Teds opinion either. I don't think it's evil and women should not be punished for being one.

I never had any dealing with this before I came to China. I did not come here to look for it either. I would have gone to where I thought (naive) it was more prevalent, Thailand, Phillippines.
From my perspective i'm taking advantage of a girl no matter how much I pay. I think men have stronger sex drives ( I may be naive here also) but one man could repopulate the world. One woman could not.. Most men will nail almost anything they can get. I don't know many women who are this way and then we call them sluts. You know the joke ;what is the difference between a slut and a bitch" a slunt will F anything, a bitch will F anything except you.
I met a couple of hookers at home recently and had a long talk with them. I asked how can you do this? Because I think for me to be a prostitute I would have to have sex with Mattayas grandmother to be in the same boat and I think big Ted wouldn't like that or agree to it. Worse would be the reality version where it would be Mattayas grandpa, because women can get guys easier than we can get women. The hookers told me they don't mind doing it and they provide a service for money. If there was no need they would not make any money. So now I'm thinking who is taking advantage of whom? We are all trying conciously or not to manipulate each other at some level. Even my attempts to make others laugh is manipulation. 
Is prositution bad or evil, no especially compared to some of my bad jokes.
  I'm sure there is an evil element envolved where the women are beaten either by johns or pimps.
 

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Women should have the right, and freedom to choose a profession or job using there skills, just like anyone else. I have known house wife’s that are what I call high class, and medium class escorts that get a huge self esteem boost, and measure there sensuality based on the amount of money they earn, or the gifts they motivate a client to give freely. It is the lower class street, and hotel workers that Society worries more about, where the motivation is money, and more money. And if the money is used to buy drugs, it is not health.

Affairs are becoming more common in every culture, with birth control. A woman with strong desires . . .  why not enjoy intimacies with men that elevate the heart beat.
Marital sex can become mundane over the years. And most women need the romantic excitement of an affair to rejuvenate her body and mind. Women need more mental stimulation, and are capable of multiple, longer, and more after the husband has given up.

I know an older man with an Asian wife that helps her find generous men for dating. They select men friends carefully that she likes, and that there is a spark of lustful attraction. He likes to drive her to her dates, and pick her up. 
With married couples, where the husband has a cuckold nature, that willingly shares his wife for lustful  dating it is legal in most countries, and cultures by common law, if there is consent, approval, and knowledge of the spouses. Both the cuckold husband, and his hot wife both enjoy the adventures.

Prostitution . . . . there needs to be a better word, that dose not have a negative stigma. It has been legal in much of history. Being discreet, and done privately may make it more exciting, and perhaps commands a higher dollar.

If my daughter wanted to engage in the lifestyle, I would be the first to accept, encourage, and help them make is more safe.

GuilinRaf:

I agree that the word "prostitution" is extremely negative, and that despite our Politically Correct mentality we still have not found a "nicer" word for it. Even now, I am racking my brains trying to come up with something, but all I get are (equally lame) terms like "short term lust quencher", "passion technician", or a very Un-PC term like "rent-a-chick". Wow! this is hard!  And for guys? How about "lewd-dude-for-hire"?

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I\d say the word is fine - but we now associate it due to society's influence. In Firefly, they used the word 'companion'. There are also 'consorts' and 'concubines'.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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FunPhotog:

I choose to call it "friendship" maybe friends with benefits. What friends, consenting adults. do behind closed doors is legal. Never sex for money. never with force, or with a pimp.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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It is incredible INPORTENT and incredible dangerous
First
men outnumber women by incredible numbers In china there are not Enough . I have had the same argument with friends and I lost the simple answer is that there are not Enough  women, but there are Enough  whores in china that’s why they let it happen and that’s why they cannot make it legal there are not Enough  women to go around and they can not just say that.

secound
I have no idea how they treat sexual disease in china or how they practice safe sex and considering how it is only going to go up it is something to really worry about.

derek:

"a nuff" said!

12 years 5 weeks ago
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I am not going to take the time to read all the comments, but in case someone hasn't said it yet; prostitution is not so dangerous here as it is in the West.

I mean, I don't think a college student who does it for extra cash has to worry about being chopped up and stuck in a freezer.

crimochina:

what planet are you from??? oh yes "in the west" prostitutes die every day. here in the middle kingdom no harm comes to prostitutes.

12 years 5 weeks ago
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Blast from the past ...

surprise

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Hong Kong is a perfect example. Great place to live, visit and do business. Legalized prostitution demonstrates forward thinking and the women are independent (except those smuggled in by their own countrymen). 

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Resurrected question after a 4 year hibernation... boring; must be hard up for points.

philbravery:

Nah just demonstrating how good the quality of questions we use to get compared to more recent offerings

7 years 22 weeks ago
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thedude:

Or you have gotten used to the superficial asinine questions posted by Vickie.

 

This website used to be a good place for deep intellectual conversations about China.

 

Now it has become a vain narcissistic place....whitewashed by the CCP.

 

7 years 22 weeks ago
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A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77