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Posts: 2488

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Q: A question for the chinese language pros

I have asked the chinese in my circle but havent recieved a thoughtful answer as per the norm. I was hoping I could get some ideas here.

I had noticed that chinese dont seem to create new words. Anything that is introduced to China either gets a direct translation like.... Hotdog for example. Its literally translated as hot dog (ri guo ) or the english words will just be put into chinese sounds like chocolate or coffee. These arent chinese words in the traditional sense. Just takes on english words.

English has new words added to the lexicon all the time. Something is created and then given a completly new sounding name never used before like say... Penicillin. And bam! Its officially a word. I never see that here.

So my question is why doesnt the Chinese language create new words? Or maybe they do? Im not so professional obviously they could and i wouldnt know it.

Also slangs dont count. Something like niu bi wasnt used a hundred years ago but its old chinese common words with a new oral meaning.

9 years 14 weeks ago in  Teaching & Learning - China

 
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And if new words are being created are new never before seen chinese charactors also being created? Like nui bi again for example. That Bi is obviously used for the word pu%$y , but in written there isnt a word. They will either use english like "niu B"
Or they will use any spelling of that "bi" sound and people will know the meaning. 牛逼 牛比。 when was the last time a new chinese charactor was created??

shabi250:

There is a character for bi :屄. It's very vulgar as the two components of the character are corpse and hole. Most Chinese people are unaware of it as surprise surprise it's not taught in school or included on most phone's dictionaries.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

Thanks man! Thats super usefull! Does that charactor have another, more tame meaning as well?

9 years 14 weeks ago
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shabi250:

No, it only really has the vulgar meaning. It's much like cao, (enter, meat) the constituent characters are so graphic and dirty that they're rarely used and can't really be used for anything else.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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9 years 14 weeks ago
 
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I think when China opened up... just a ton of new stuff poured in and they didn't really know what to do... they broke it down and tried to directly translate it with compound words... like you said with hotdog. 

 

Even the words like shou ji (hand device) or dian hua (electronic voice) seem very rushed and simple. If they couldn't directly translate the word then they tried their best with phonetics so that it sounded similar but with sometimes a relative meaning when translated. 

 

Coca-cola lucked out. Their phonetic translation turned into ke kou ke le... or delicious and happy. Pepsi got screwed over with... bai shi which I believe translates to 100 issues or 100 problems lol. Coca-cola has some insane marketing geniuses. 

 

Other countries adopt English words into their own language... even Japan. China is just incredibly stubborn. You would think they would promote the use of English (especially words with meaning they don't really have in Chinese) since millions of their people are learning it daily... but you would be wrong. 

 

Most of their vulgar words have to do with animals. Like you said... Cao ni ma (mud grass horse) but changed, Niu bi (cow pussy), ben dan (idiot but literally turtle egg)...

 

Chinese is an incredibly complex language that went to hell when Mao killed or tried to "re-educate" all the scholars and tried to dummy it down for everyone. I am not a pro-speaker but this is my understanding. 

 

 

Mr_spoon:

"Cao ni ma" (肏你妈) actually translates to "F**k your mom", while 草泥马 literally translates to "grass mud horse". It's just a different pronunciation used to bypass word filters.

 

"ben dan" means "stupid egg", while "wang ba dan" means "turtle egg" (because reasons). 

 

Speaking of lucking out, Carrefour also got one of the best brand names possible: Jia Le Fu, which means "happy and prosper home". It even has a little smiley face hidden in the 3rd character.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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Robk:

Right, yeah wang ba dan is turtle egg. I wrote this pretty late lol. 

9 years 14 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

草泥马 isnt used to bypass filters, its their name for an alpaca. Relatively new i guess, so...... I guess i answered my own question!

9 years 14 weeks ago
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9 years 14 weeks ago
 
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Now the new generation like 90S destoried many words.
Like they say 亲 instead of 亲爱的(Dear),麻麻 instead of 妈妈(mum).,etc
Just afraid the younger generation will get bad misleading about language.Those 90S just use any words sound similar to the words they want to say to make fun,which makes no sense.
Btw,to answer your question,I guess Chinese want to keep more original meaning or sound of the foreign words,which I agree with meaning translation or pick up words sound like foreign words to instead of.I studied translation between English and Chinese in college.
The sandwitch resturant called Subway is translated to 赛百味,it means more delicious than any other food while keeping its original sound.It is a creative way as well.

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9 years 14 weeks ago
 
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Creating new words would require a level of creative thought rhat does not exist in China.

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There are definitely new words being created. With regards to phonetic and contextual (literal) translations, its obviously much easier and quicker to create a phonetic translation of a word that's come from a foreign language. Look at the words for fork, spoon etc. in Japanese. They sound like a Japanese person speaking English, and they're not new translations. 

There was an interesting piece written about the phonetic and literal translation of English words in Chinese (can't find it) because there's no one rule for translating words. The aim by many "extremists" is to create literal translations for all foreign words in the long run, in an effort to preserve and protect the Chinese language. Take for example vitamin. It was originally 维他命 wei ta ming, which is both phonetic and  humoursly has a literal tie-in to the English meaning. Over time, the word 维生素 wei sheng su replaced it and this would be entirely literal. Hot-dog is one of those strange exceptions. Chocolate and coffee are phonetic and I doubt they will ever get literal translations. But that's not to say all foreign words are translated like that. Computer, the internet, airplane, ambulance. None of these fit the "rule" you think exists. The fact is, there is no one rule for how to create the Chinese counterparts for new English (or whatever language) words. 

As for creating completely new words in Chinese, i.e. those that are exclusive to the Chinese language, again it does happen. There's no point me writing some of the new ones down, but there were plenty of new words created last year. 

mike695ca:

Ok number 1 , i made it pretty clear that i dont know what im talking about. Which is why i asked the question. There is no rule I speak of. You just made that up. 2. Why even respond if your not going to give an example. You just blankly say theres lots of new words created last year but your not going to share. Either you dont know any, or if you dont want to share then why bother with the long winded answer?? You also give japanese as an example yet dont give an actual example. We are supposed to know how they say fork? You mention a random article but no link. What a waste of time man. 3: I dont like your atitude. Change it.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

Also i would argue that some of the few lazy examples you did give are incorrect anyways. Internet for example. The "net" part was litterally translated from english which is why u see the character 网 in both interNET and tennis ie netball ( 网球). So theres that.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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xunliang:

Dude calm down. I didn't write it with any attitude. Go have a wank or something.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

Wank completed. Finish smoke, then calming will commence.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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草泥马 isn't an actual animal. It's a made-up creature that supposedly looks like an alpaca. It was invented in a "baidu answers" article against censorship, which was basically a series of curse words transformed into weird names of made-up creatures and places by changing the tones.

 Nowadays, 草泥马 is used to bypass word filters online, mostly in online games, and basically became an ultra popular meme that spread IRL.

 

Mike, if you didn't believe me, even the simplest of Google searches would have shown you I was right. Literally, the first result for typing "grass mud horse" . I just checked to make sure I wasn't full of crap myself.

 

I've been studying Chinese for 7 years and I spend most of my time on the internet. If you're going to be wrong, at least try to be modest.

mike695ca:

Haha you dont sound so modest yourself. Surely someone who studied chinese for so long would baidu the question instead of wikipedia?? No one is doubting this was a funny meme back in 2008 or so. But today is it not the name given to actual alpaca?? A cursory glance on baidu would show that it is not a mythical creature but an alpaca, with pictures, the english and latin names height and many pictures. Not just the first link but pretty much all of them minus an old posting from 2009. The jokes over man.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

And before I get a lesson, yes I k ow it has an official name.... You could share that i cant. Yang something. Just know my point is as some point it changes from a meme to a real thing. No matter how wierd. I took my niece to the zoo ( now every zoo has alpaca, peru cleaned up on this thing) and it was straight up called cao ni ma. Parents teach their damn kids this. TV shows say it without giggling. Its everywhere. Oddly it would seem like the joke has died and its become a real thing. Theres a whole generation of kids growing up that have studied alpacas but never heard the name ...yang something. They know it as cao ni ma. Its not that hard to believe as there are tonnes of phrases that sound rude in one tone and suitable in another.

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Mr_spoon:

But that's my point, I saw the article back then. I pointed to Wikipedia since I have no idea what your level of Chinese is, that way you'd be sure to be able to read it. That's a terrible counter-argument.

 

Anyway, I could post a bunch of pictures of giraffes and talk about how there's a certain, rare race of them called "Dooshbäägs", but that wouldn't make it true.

 

But yes, it was originally a joke which, as I said, spread IRL.

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Assuming we are talking about association of characters, not about characters themselves (these are two completely different issues).

 

Words follow concepts, when concepts are imported, it's likely they are going to be translated from the language they're imported from. This is mainly true for industrial creations (machinery, pharmaceutical, chemical, etc). The infamous 电话 for example is Japanese (so are all the cutely simplistic machine translations from the 20th century, like 电脑).

Nowadays it seems that often conflicting versions of a translated new word (let's say vitamin, or penicillin) are likely to appear at the same time, typically one phonetic and one semantic. Then they eventually coexist or one dies out, there doesn't seem to be a rule for that, so it's a per case phenomenon. So, to get back to penicillin, both 青霉素 (purely semantic) and 盘尼西林 (purely phonetic) coexist nowadays. Professionals will usually have a preference for the semantic words, but again, there is no hard core rule.

 

Now obviously new compositions of characters appear organically. An interesting example would be 自拍, a worldwide social production that China led instead of following: as far as I remember, I've seen this word spread in China at the same time, if not before, it became "selfie" in English and obviously way before it made it into the dictionaries (and the spell checker still doesn't like it).

I could argue that western alphabetic languages have a ceremonial process for acknowledging a new word, which is fusing two concepts into one word with no space between, while Chinese does not know this.

mike695ca:

those are some great examples. Thanks!

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Shifu

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Because of the nature of Chinese characters and pinyin, of course every word that comes from foreign sources will be Chinglified to fit the Chinese pronunciation. English does this too, but of course through the English alphabet we can create a word of any spelling and length we want. That's cool for us, but you're wrong for thinking that Chinese also doesn't do that, and I'll make a point that Chinese does it in a more interesting way. I'll make some comparisons below.

 

English words are made of 26 letters arranged in different combinations. 

Chinese words are made of tens of thousands of characters arranged in different combinations. So far there's no real difference between the two.

 

English letters have no meaning on their own, so the word must be given a meaning by whoever created it. I think this is the "creativity" of English words that you're arguing over.

Each Chinese character has a meaning on its own, so the meaning of the new word created is limited by the meaning of the characters, so there's no real creativity in new Chinese words, and that's the point you're making. But actually both English and Chinese words have taken on different meanings over the years as people have used them in different contexts.

 

I actually find that Chinese is much more interesting than English, because the meaning of English words are given by whoever makes the word, so I have no idea what the word means if I've never seen it before.

 

In contrast, if I don't understand a Chinese word, I can at least understand the meaning from knowing the meanings of the individual characters. Also, Chinese is more interesting in that foreign words can be transcribed according to sound, meaning, or a combination of the two. This also makes Chinese a very punny language, as characters with different meanings can be easily substituted for characters of the same sound. That's one aspect of the Chinese language that English can't do as well.

 

 

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Hi,Mike.

Actually, there are many ways to creat Chinese words. Pictographyic,self-explanatory, echoism, conversion,and borrowing from other culture. And words like,kafei-coffe,tai-feng-typhoon,re gou-hot dog,etc. They  originally came from wetern countries. As for words like niu bi, diao si, They are modern new words from internet talk.

Hope it helps !Smile

 

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Shifu

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What's the word for Segway? Lol.

mike695ca:

赛格威 Hahaha sai ge wei

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You really shouldn't ask those kind of questions when you're in your circle. One of its members might miss the biscuit or fail to arrive on time.

 

Hopefully you can conduct yourself as per the norm in the future.

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I am certainly not China language pro but I assume your statement is not taking into consideration different ways how the language creates new words. Usually there are several ways how the languages proceed and just one of them is creation of new words.
Chinese language certainly is not the exception and I assume the words like computer - dian nao (electric brain) or battery - dian chi (electric pool or pool of electricity) could illustrate that.
Also China organizes a competition for creating new characters. But of course you cannot expect hundreds of new characters yearly as this is not how Chinese writing system works and if approached this way so it would end up in chaos.
But I assume your question is more for the linguist rather than "ordinary person", irrespective of this person nationality and if you have a real interest in this topic so it should not be difficult to either find proper literature dealing with this issue or to consult Chinese language department in one of your city universities Smile

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