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Q: A question for you excuse makers?

Once in a while, someone will ask, "Why do Chinese abuse me in some extremely racist way?" And an army of apologists will run to China's defense saying, "Well, they don't have many immigrants, they're not used to seeing whites/blacks/south asians or dealing with people from other ethnicities. Be really patient and always forgive them." etc.etc. I've seen this on this board, and I've heard this a lot from other expats IRL.

 

Now, here's the deal: I grew up in a middle of nowhere village. It was mostly whites and sometimes natives would come down from the rez to go shopping. There was one east Indian family, zero east Asians, and the village's entire Black and Latin American community consisted of my Dad, who never got any trouble. Hangzhou, where I live, has thousands more immigrants than my hometown.

 

Now when I moved to Calgary and saw people from all races and all parts of the world all over the place, I didn't give them any trouble, because I am a human being with a brain.

 

But let's say that when I moved to Calgary, I started chasing around east Asians, screaming "KONNICHI WA" and rubbing their skin, and screaming swearwords at them, then breaking out into laughter going "They don't understand English!!!" Or screaming racial slurs at them in my car and driving away. Or stopping them and giving them long lectures about the politics of some East Asian country I'm not even sure they're from. Or telling them my theories about racial inferiority/superiority. Or asking them endless questions about their physical features/racial stereotypes. Or even just pointing at them and screaming "FOREIGNER". I would probably end up in prison.

 

It would not be a good enough excuse to say that I'm not used to seeing people from x race. So why is it a perfectly acceptable excuse for the Chinese? Auxiliary question specifically for Jnus and Panda: Why am I not entitled to my anger?

11 years 50 weeks ago in  Culture - China

 
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Kchur, I merely try to keep some balance on this site. Do you really think Chinese people don't annoy me every day? Whenever kids walk by, they say "waiguoren"...sometimes they say hi. I usually just try to say hello back. After all, I'm not going to be rude to children. However, they learned it's ok to do that because they live in a small city with very few foreigners, and I may have been the first they ever saw. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but what else can I do? I have old people that come over and ask my friend if I'm a foreigner. That's kind of a "duh?" question, but again, they are old, they are allowed to ask a stupid question in my opinion. They are not being mean to me, so whatever. I have girls put their arm next to mine and comment on how white I am, and how black they are. Older women sometimes also comment on my skin color. Again, it's not with a mean intention, so I let it go.

 

I've had many people who want to talk to me just because I am foreign, which is very annoying. In fact, one guy told me he wanted to be my friend because I am foreign, and he's been friends with all the past foreign teachers at this school. Guess what? I never talked to him again. In fact, I haven't talked to him in nearly 2 months, and he still texts me occasionally. It's easy to tell which people are my friends not just because I am a foreigner, so they are the ones I spend time with. It gets tiresome to answer the same questions over and over again, but what right to I have to be rude just because they are generic questions when you first meet someone? Is it rude for people to talk about me when I am standing there? I know they're talking about me, but I don't know enough Chinese to understand what they're talking about. Were the "HELLO"s and giggling at the beginning of the semester annoying? Yes. Are the random "hello"s from people I have never met before still strange? Yes. Do the people here make me feel like a child because they try to do everything for me like I'm some weak little girl who can't do anything herself? Yes. Is it annoying? Hell yes.

 

I often get annoyed. I am not the type of person to get angry because I'm more likely to cry than yell. Kchur, I never said you didn't have a right to your anger. If all those bad things happened to me, I'd be very angry. But sometimes you go overboard, ranting about something that doesn't look like it should have sparked such feelings. (Also claiming someone is a wu mao just because they are disgustingly positive.) I don't know if that's because you are having a bad day, or it was related to some upsetting experience that is not similar to mine, but whatever it is, I hope that you feel better. If it really bothers you so much, maybe you should try a different city, or take a break from China, or a more extreme approach, get a sex change. I swear, they must treat women differently than men, very very differently. All the guys are nice to me, all the girls are nice to me, and I've never had someone angry at me. The rudest behavior I get on a normal basis, which really pisses me off, is my students not paying attention in class, sleeping or talking. I've gotten more stuff from the school's director than any of the past foreign teachers (who were all guys) and more help than I could ever need (or want, honestly).

 

Do I still have Bad China Days? Of course, who doesn't? Someone on drugs maybe. Just because I don't bi*ch all the time doesn't mean I have rose colored glasses. Believe me, I am looking forward to some time back home, seeing my friends, eating good food, going to an anime convention, maybe discussing a possible future in the music industry. China won't be my home forever, so I'm trying to hold onto the good things.

Jnusb416:

Oh I forgot to add that there's also this creepy guy that whenever he sees me, he asks me if I want to work at his school as a foreign teacher and if I want to meet the other expats in the city because they have some sort of get together every Friday. Every time he asks the same questions, every time my answer is the same: no. Why should I care about other expats? Just because they are expats does not mean I'll have anything in common with them.

11 years 50 weeks ago
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nevermind:

You've been here what, six months?

11 years 50 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

I've been here since September, so that would be 7.5 months.

11 years 50 weeks ago
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11 years 50 weeks ago
 
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Well said.  Its like what I said about whether you are offended by the term Lao Wai.  I said its not so much the word, its the fact they talk about us right in our face.  They're so rude!!  Even if I was back home and wanted to talk about some odd looking foreigner, I wouldn't just think: "They don't understand any English so its fine for me to talk crap about him while hes right next to me."  Its just rude.   As for poking, talking about our facial features and stuff, I havnt had much experience of it, but I would piss me off just as much.  As soon as I hear the word Lao Wai I stare at whoever says it.  Wait until I've gone to start talking about me.

 

I completely agree with what you said about not being exposed to foreigners not being an excuse.  If I met someone from a country I hadn't met someone from before, sure I would be curious, but I wouldn't A: try to show off my ability in speaking his language  B: talk about his country or one that I think he comes from  C: tell him how amazing my country is.

 

I think you're more than entitled to your anger.  China in many aspects is a great place to live, but my god the Chinese make it a misery for foreigners sometimes.  No random stranger I don't want to be your friend.  No I dont want to proof read your English while I'm trying to have a drink in a coffee shop.   There are plenty of foreigners in China now for it not to be an excuse, in my opinion.  Even if you've never seen a foreigner before theres no need to be childish or rude towards them,

I'd just like to add (seen as thought most people are talking about their home towns) I come from a small village, tiny actually. It was only a few years ago that we had foreigners move in. We obviously had seen foreigners before but I remember when the Chinese take away opened and an indian looking family moved in. That was the first time we had seen none white people in our village. But my reaction was not to point and stare or talk crap about them. My grandfather still calls black people darkies(obviously not to their face), not because hes racist, but because he comes from a time when that was acceptable. It actually came up when he was talking about a singer he liked. My point is that he hasnt had much contact with black people but he still woundnt treat them like the Chinese treat us. my grandfather is not well educated, he worked in the mines from the time he left school. He has not had contact with many foreigners, as there arent many where we live, but he still knows not to be a prick if he sees one. I'm pretty sure he had never spoken to a Chinese person until he met my gf, but he treated her the same as he would have if she was from our village. After that, I can't see any excuse why the Chinese act the way they do.

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You guys are accurate as far as I'm concerned as well. Your examples and analysis of their reasons for doing what they do are also accurate in my experience. No excuse is good enough when I walk into a new class and I hear, "look at his big nose"  followed by snickers and laughter. I gave up my free time a few weeks ago to help a friend run an English Corner in his university. Immediately after my entrance a girl said "Why do you have such a big nose?" There is no excuse for such a question other than plain out stupidity and rudeness.

Sangoku:

I got one female university student asking me the same question : "Why do Western people have big noses?". At that time, I wasn't yet familiar with the stupidity of some Chinese, so I laughed back and said : "Why do Chinese women have such small breasts?" and then I left. 

11 years 50 weeks ago
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derek:

I like that!

11 years 50 weeks ago
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TedDBayer:

Just a question, do you have a big nose?, ,, they seem to like mine. I have a nose bridge. I have black hair and I'm not super hairy, but they rub my arms. Women who seem to like, I'll flash my chest ( Yeah I'm a slut) and they seem to like it. But they seem like children to me in their curiousity. I had a cab driver grab the hair on my arm and say something to my Gf, don't know what it was but doubt it was good.

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derek:

Honestly I never thought so until I came here. 

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Don't expect from them what we know. Remember this place is an impoverished, developing dump. Most of these people grew up in shacks with dirt floors.

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you are right dont expact any thing from those who never watched a foreign person even on tv so how will they accept us if you see chinese tv and hear old stories they call foreigners monstar i am not lying because  my gf told me but she is good and every one is not bad not even good 

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You did not gain your tolerance, aversion to racism and empathy to others by osmosis. The reason you emerged from your small town with such an good attitude was because from a very young age your parents, teachers and peers have obviously taught you well and were good role models. You don't have to go back in time too many years to find a time  when a great many Americans were very racially intolerant  or where other Western cultures thought it was their divine right to lord over the so called inferior races.

Manners is a bit different because they have been a part of most European cultures for a far longer period of time. So most Western people have a reasonable grasp of basic manners. Well our form of basic manners. I say most. I still observe large numbers of school children and young adults behaving very poorly on trains etc in my day to day travels.Chucking crap around, swearing anf talking loudly on their phones etc. So in fact I think Western manners are actually on the decline,  

I am not saying I like at all some of the Chinese attitudes or behavior. What I am saying is that it is not some genetic mutation that causes it it is to do with what they are taught and this takes teaching and examples to change. Just take a close look at children of Chinese immigrants to Western countries. From my close observation over many years of coaching basketball and involvement at a Police Boys Club in Australia  within  a generation or two they become some of the best mannered, behaved,studious and polite young people I have seen. lets hope that within the next generation this can also happen in China. But everyone who can needs to do their little bit to chip away at the current situation so the change can happen.              

FruitIsGood:

Osmosis is for water. Diffusion is for  other matter. 

11 years 50 weeks ago
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kchur:

So, here's a question: How did my environment get that way? I'm thinking it's because a lot of people in Western countries pulled their socks up and took personal responsibility. Because reasonable people like Dr. King showed us points of view that many of us were willing to accept. Our countries didn't become what they are through mere chance or a random roll of the dice, it became that way through conscious reasoning and decision-making. Reasoning and decision-making that the average Chinese male is too egotistical, hateful and irresponsible to even consider. He'd scoff and say it was below him. And foreigners interacting with Chinese typically act as enablers, due to our poor habit of giving them the benefit of the doubt on everything.

 

It's the same when it comes to poverty. Chinese say they have a third world country because America stole their money and other inferior barbarians were merely lucky to become rich themselves. Only China deserves money, and the fact that China doesn't have it must be someone else's fault. But then I compare work environments I've seen in Canada, America and notice that in those two countries efficiency is everything, no one is ever drunk at work, much less shit-faced at 11 AM,  There is a bit of ego and ass-kissing at play in the anglosphere, but face-giving always takes a back-seat to the profitability and productivity. Whereas the Chinese male would rather see his own business go to ruin than suffer the indignity of not getting round-the-clock compliments.

 

Modern Chinese culture appears to be specifically designed to keep China poor. But all those office workers whose days consist of computer games/baijiu lunch/screaming about face just blame foreign countries for their problems. They will never take even a small kernel of responsibility. And us foreigners, who they blame for every inch of their poverty and problems, just show them unending tolerance and eat their bullshit up with a fork and spoon. Why is this? Why can these people literally do whatever they want at all times in all places, and we love them no matter what?

11 years 50 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

You don't have to love them. Eventually they'll reap what they sowed. Have patience Kchur. Who will really have the last laugh then?

11 years 50 weeks ago
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kchur:

There's over 1.3 billion of them, they hate us all blindly and without reason, and they are in every country. I don't want to live this world anymore.

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, I grew up in a Canadian city, but things were similar for me except, that when I was younger and we started getting masses of immigration,  I and all my friends did not like them. We were young and stupid, I admit this. But we would yell. From my perspective at that time tho, many were refugees and got free everything, apartments (which they ruined) clothes, food , medical. I knew a woman whose husband beat her and she could not get Ontario housing because they were on hold for 'boat people'. We didn't like then being different. I was just over twenty when I met my first black person, I had seen them. By this time I was more accepting of immigrants. Then it seems like there was a flood of immigration. I like Indian people and knew many black people. But one thing that has always burned me about black immigrants is they come to Canada and hate white.

 People have always had trouble accepting different things, people, and change. I'm not trying to make a defense for how stupid people can be. I think we can be ignorant fools and I mean every race from every where. Look at the Irish, Cath vs Prod , wtf? Africa different tribe? My anchestors in Canada were Ukrainians that homestead in the west. That must have been a tough way to start a life compared today. But i know they experience discrimination and ridicule, so much so that I was raised without speaking Ukraine and went to an Anglician church.

 I've experienced young guys sneeking peeks and giggling at me, people looking  at me from the corners of their eyes and had some woman come out yelling at me (tim bo dong) and making a hand gesture with thumb up ( tim bo dong). I think that was racal, I was sitting on my scooter playing with my phone, so I have no idea what she was saying or why. I don't care..... yet,,,,, but I can see it getting annoying after awhile.

  BTW I have a small nose.

kchur:

Where are you from? I thought you were from Iqaluit or something.

11 years 50 weeks ago
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TedDBayer:

My profile is a joke, Great White North is metaaphor, it was meant to confuse ESL readers in part and just be kind funny. I grew up in Toronto, live rural Ontario now most of my life, same place Avril is from/.

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Shifu

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The concept of the "excuse" is a rhetorical device meant to highlight conscious bad choices. It is for encouraging people to follow standards of behavior that they already know about.  It is a paternalistic notion that I think is problematic when you try to apply it across cultures. It is for blaming people and sticking the blame on them.

 

Blame is good for shaming individual people into changing their actions (actually maybe it isn't even good for this...) but it can't change the way a whole society behaves. Your analogy to the Canadian bumpkin arriving in Calgary and going nuts doesn't work precisely because you've reversed the concept of normalcy. In China this behavior is normal and so it takes education and exposure to foreigners to reverse things.

 

Also I think the more I dwell on the fact that I'm experiencing racism the less I will be able to tolerate it. In this case, regardless of whether these Chinese are making bad choices, other commentators want to give reasons for their actions so that they can keep their cool. By staying cool, we can work constructively on beating these negative behaviors. If we get mad, well, then we are just as likely to reinforce the negative views.

kchur:

Ok, fair enough, you made a very good point, but why are our countries the way they are and why is "normal" and acceptable in China so much different?

 

I did a bunch of ethnohistory as an undergrad. I know the whole cultural relativism spock thing, and agree with it for the most part. But I also know that at one point our cultures were nutty-crazy racist and we changed for the better, and now people from all parts of the earth can function together reasonably well in a Canadian city. I can't accept it was just all a matter of random chance. I also can't accept that large numbers of Chinese in Canada are benefiting from it very actively, while I have to suffer as a Canadian in China.

11 years 50 weeks ago
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HugAPanda:

Lets think back about 100 years. Separate but (supposedly) equal. Lets think back about 150 years ago, when whites owned blacks as property, not even as people. It has taken a LOT of work by Civil rights activists/groups AND a lot of governmental interference, (which had to be coerced, btw) for things to be where they are now, and it still is far from perfect. Now you are in a country where it's citizens are squashed by the gov't. They aren't even worthy of human rights. They can't protest or march or speak out against those who make the rules for them. They don't even really get to decide who those people are. We've had a Dr. King. We've had people protest and march. China hasn't had that luxury. China doesn't even like some of their own minorities. 

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Kchur, I merely try to keep some balance on this site. Do you really think Chinese people don't annoy me every day? Whenever kids walk by, they say "waiguoren"...sometimes they say hi. I usually just try to say hello back. After all, I'm not going to be rude to children. However, they learned it's ok to do that because they live in a small city with very few foreigners, and I may have been the first they ever saw. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, but what else can I do? I have old people that come over and ask my friend if I'm a foreigner. That's kind of a "duh?" question, but again, they are old, they are allowed to ask a stupid question in my opinion. They are not being mean to me, so whatever. I have girls put their arm next to mine and comment on how white I am, and how black they are. Older women sometimes also comment on my skin color. Again, it's not with a mean intention, so I let it go.

 

I've had many people who want to talk to me just because I am foreign, which is very annoying. In fact, one guy told me he wanted to be my friend because I am foreign, and he's been friends with all the past foreign teachers at this school. Guess what? I never talked to him again. In fact, I haven't talked to him in nearly 2 months, and he still texts me occasionally. It's easy to tell which people are my friends not just because I am a foreigner, so they are the ones I spend time with. It gets tiresome to answer the same questions over and over again, but what right to I have to be rude just because they are generic questions when you first meet someone? Is it rude for people to talk about me when I am standing there? I know they're talking about me, but I don't know enough Chinese to understand what they're talking about. Were the "HELLO"s and giggling at the beginning of the semester annoying? Yes. Are the random "hello"s from people I have never met before still strange? Yes. Do the people here make me feel like a child because they try to do everything for me like I'm some weak little girl who can't do anything herself? Yes. Is it annoying? Hell yes.

 

I often get annoyed. I am not the type of person to get angry because I'm more likely to cry than yell. Kchur, I never said you didn't have a right to your anger. If all those bad things happened to me, I'd be very angry. But sometimes you go overboard, ranting about something that doesn't look like it should have sparked such feelings. (Also claiming someone is a wu mao just because they are disgustingly positive.) I don't know if that's because you are having a bad day, or it was related to some upsetting experience that is not similar to mine, but whatever it is, I hope that you feel better. If it really bothers you so much, maybe you should try a different city, or take a break from China, or a more extreme approach, get a sex change. I swear, they must treat women differently than men, very very differently. All the guys are nice to me, all the girls are nice to me, and I've never had someone angry at me. The rudest behavior I get on a normal basis, which really pisses me off, is my students not paying attention in class, sleeping or talking. I've gotten more stuff from the school's director than any of the past foreign teachers (who were all guys) and more help than I could ever need (or want, honestly).

 

Do I still have Bad China Days? Of course, who doesn't? Someone on drugs maybe. Just because I don't bi*ch all the time doesn't mean I have rose colored glasses. Believe me, I am looking forward to some time back home, seeing my friends, eating good food, going to an anime convention, maybe discussing a possible future in the music industry. China won't be my home forever, so I'm trying to hold onto the good things.

Jnusb416:

Oh I forgot to add that there's also this creepy guy that whenever he sees me, he asks me if I want to work at his school as a foreign teacher and if I want to meet the other expats in the city because they have some sort of get together every Friday. Every time he asks the same questions, every time my answer is the same: no. Why should I care about other expats? Just because they are expats does not mean I'll have anything in common with them.

11 years 50 weeks ago
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nevermind:

You've been here what, six months?

11 years 50 weeks ago
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Jnusb416:

I've been here since September, so that would be 7.5 months.

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Be angry. Let it raise your blood pressure or give you an aneurysm or a stroke. Let it eat at you and drive you into a potential homicidal rage. Be miserable. Live in a situation that you can do nothing about except bitch and whine and moan. Cry yourself to sleep at night. 

 

As long as you're happy, right? Smile

kchur:

Well, I guess I could just be mindlessly happy, drunk and shallow and blame Americans.

11 years 50 weeks ago
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HugAPanda:

Right now, there are more expats in China than ever before. 600,000 non-chinese people from all over the world. American, Canadian, African, European, Korean, Japanese, Spainish, etc. White, Black, Latino, Asian, etc. a total of 600,000 of various Ethnicities in a country of 1.3 BILLION Chinese. That equates to 2000 Chinese people to every 1 foreigner. 

And for whatever reason, different ethnicities have different body features, different size noses, different shaped eyes, different size boobage, taller, smaller, fatter, shorter, whiter, blacker... 

For a country who's elderly, who grew up before China was even open to foreigners,  are raising the young, instilling their ideas and their beliefs, and their values and their education on todays young, is it any wonder that school age children are still... unsure of foreigners, curious about foreigners, and even rude to the evil visitors to their country. Especially when there are foreigners there who do act like ignorant buffoons trying to rape their women and plunder their villages.  

You can get pissed off and bitch and whine and grumble... or you can maybe use it as a teaching moment. Show them you aren't some big bad asshole and something to be weary of. That you, like many foreigners, are kind and friendly and generous, and mean them no harm. It takes one rotten apple to spoil the bunch, and a lot of good ones to change their perceptions. Or something.

 

 

11 years 50 weeks ago
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kchur:

OW OW I STUB MY TOE

 

 

FUCK YOU AMERICA!!!!!!!!! HOW AMERICA MAN BE SO FUCK ARROGANT? WHAT'S THE HELL THE PROBLEM MAKE ME STUB TOE? FUCK YOU AMERICA!

11 years 50 weeks ago
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HugAPanda:

Can a douche bag be racist? Maybe that's part of what makes one a douche bag.

11 years 50 weeks ago
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crimochina:

fuck you canada!! (until i go to live there)you want a war!!!! you really want to pick a fight with big brother?? you think mother england will come to the rescue??? dont you push us you have oil and we need oil. dont push your luck . you are free because we allow you to be free. dont ever forget it!! devil

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Yanno, I don't get pissed at you for being angry. I get tired of you bitching and moaning and whining about the environment you CHOOSE to remain a part of, and NOT DOING ANYTHING TO HELP CHANGE THAT ENVIRONMENT. 

There's venting and then there is you. You come across as thinking yourself high and mighty. You think you are better than them because you have... what?
*A high tolerance of differences in people?
*An understanding of their surroundings and background?
*A desire to make any changes in that which makes you angry?

kchur:

Why should foreigners be responsible for China? Do you know who is responsible for Canada? Canada. Who is responsible for the US? The US. Who is responsible for Europe? Europe. I'm not white Jesus. It's not my job to save the other races.

 

China creates its own problems, takes no responsibility and gets the country it deserves. Instead of blaming itself for its own mistakes, they blame foreigners, then demand the foreigners fix their problems. They need to take shit into their own hands for once. Nobody owes them a better China, just like no one owes Canada a better Canada.

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ignorance is not an excuse it is a valid reason. you seem to expect a rock to get up and say "top of the morning to you kind sir, do you mind if i ask which country you're from?"

ignorant people do ignorant things

ignorant people say ignorant things

 

you cant compare growing up in small town anywhere wit growing up anywhere in china. no other organization is as thorough when it comes to de-educating people. you were taught about the world. you were taught that their are different races and nationalities but everyone is human and there fore equal. you were taught virtues and principles. you were taught to be cordial, compassionate, considerate etc. people were taught that lieing cheating and scamming are proof of intelligence and whole other bunch of BS. 

you keep waiting for that rock to say sth intelligent , that'll be the day you get committed.

god knows if i ever got on a bus and heard this conversation about me, i'll go crazy.

local a: oh my god do you see that guy?

local b: yeah he is very dark

a: i never seen anyone so dark .. up close

b. i wonder where he's from?

a.: he could be from anywhere ..usa canada

b. even from europe

a: or he could be from one of the countries in africa such as ghana , nigeria and so on.

 

 

if i heard that conversation going on behind me , i know i 've been in china too long.

 

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