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Q: Is racism cool amongst some expats?
Just wondering how many expats on this site would consider themselves to be card-carrying racists. Do you make racist comments to Chinese people's faces or is it only behind their backs or anonymously on the internet? I find this all very fascinating - from a sociological point of view.
I think some people just get frustrated and use this website to blow off steam.
ilcornalito:
I do it. It makes me feel I'm not just some crazy guy who is getting it all wrong. Nice to see others are taking the same crap I am.
I know it is difficult to spot the difference between "race" and culture. I do not consider bitching about kids peeing on the street racism, it has nothing to do with skin color, but has to do with culture. It is perfectly valid to criticize someone for their culture, at least it doesn't warrant being called a racist.
Always remember. You're the racists since you think there is such a thing as race. All humans are created equal, but their cultures screw them up.
dongbeiren:
Exactly, I don't complain about the uncivilized behavior of Chinese Americans or Hong Kong Chinese etc. Clearly the issue is not about race but about what society considers to be acceptable behavior. If a Chinese American or any other American threw his garbage out the window of a speeding car, he would pay a hefty fine if caught and be scorned by society. In mainland China, nobody (almost nobody) cares or respects themseslves or their surroundings and society doesn't hold people accountable for their behavior. It ain't about race, it's about a fractured society.
I'm as keen to know the answer as you are. Maybe I can make some money printing a few business cards with the title "proud racist" on them.
Who knows, it could be the next bubble.
Since China is a country, not a race, what race would such comments be against? I see plenty of comments criticizing the country of China and cultural aspects. I have seen people complaining about the Chinese. What I haven't seen is people making comments about any particular race.
What comments about any particular race can you point to?
kingme:
The one anonymous comment comparing Chinese to the missing link came close to being racist, in my opinion.
Mateusz:
Not really. That comment was about Chinese, a nationality, not a race. It would be a nationalistic comment (like saying Australians are superior to French), not a racist one. A racist comment would be "Yellow people are the missing link" or "Han people are the missing link", as these refer to races, not nationalities.
So far, whenever I see criticisms of China on this site, it's always about the country (and/or culture of that country), nothing about anything genetic. No one is saying "Yellow people are less civilized than white people".
Those who claim there can be such a thing as "racism against China" don't really understand (or are at least misusing) the word "race". It would be like saying stereotypes in "Big Bang Theory" is racist against scientists, or that someone mocking Ozzy Osborne is being racist against heavy metal fans.
I think many expats are 'cultural supremacists' - they have this warped idea that their culture, values and norms are baseline, and the best, and that it is totally fine to criticize other cultures because of where they come from.
kingme:
You're getting closer to the truth, but you're still off a bit. We're all, I hope, aware of the dangers of cultural supremacism. But, that's not what's going on here. Cultural supremacism asserts that "my culture is best." That's not what anyone's saying, I trust. We, representing men and women from radically different cultures, are coming together and agreeing that it is dangerous to leave razor blades and sewage on the street, and it is unfavorable to have such a bitter relationship with one's parents that the government itself must intervene. It's wrong to beat and rape women, it's wrong to see one's husband or boyfriend as merely a living wallet, and it's dangerous to fill the air with toxins. We're not cultural supremacists. We're not each saying that one's own respective culture is superior. Heavens, no. We're saying that modern Chinese culture as we are experiencing it is dangerous to the mind and the body.
Scandinavian:
If not pissing on the street makes me a cultural supremacist, so be it. 
sm90:
kingme - I wish you were right, but unfortunately I have been on this forum for longer than 1 day (you too, I suspect, maybe on a different account) and there is a lot of 'my culture is better than yours'.
Scandinavian:
a mroe serious comment: @kingme I agree, but when we judge what China is experiencing as being bad, we are using our own background as yardstick. Maybe killing and rape is not bad, monkeys do it, and what are we but hairless monkeys. But actually Monkeys and other animals do have moral codes, that in my opinion are at least up to Chinese standards. E.g. sit down with two dogs. Ask them both to do a trick, reward only one. The unrewarded dog has a sense of fairness, it knows equal work should be rewarded equally.
Naturally the comparison with animals is not too good, as animals generally lacks the selfawareness humans have and especially knowledge of their own mortality.
jetfire9000:
I think it's sorta' an insult to Chinese culture to use the word "Modern Chinese culture" when in fact what you call "Modern Chinese culture" is the lack of Chinese culture. You can basically substitute the word "modern" with "lack of" and have essentially the same thing. I don't believe that "releasing toxins in the air" can be equated to being the product of culture. That is in fact just an ugly and unfortunate side effect of following the greater trend of modernization. To be fair, Chinese people often make the same mistake. For example, I saw a guy in a forum trying to pretend that he could recruit foreign women to be KTV bar mistresses. And when he was caught, he simply retorted "You don't understand Chinese culture." That is is a supreme example of having no understanding of culture whatsoever.
andy74rc:
@Scando: referring to your last sentence, visit a slaughterhouse and then tell me about animal selfawareness of their mortality.... I see much less selfawareness in humans crossing a street here.
Mateusz:
If you hold that cultural supremacy is always wrong, and that it's unacceptable to judge a culture, then do you also believe we should not judge the culture of the Ku Klux Klan? Sure, their actions might be seen as "uncivilized" or "violently racist and reprehensible" to you, but who are you to judge?
Personally, I would say that some cultures are bad, and I don't want to be a part of them. "All cultures are equally good, and we need to respect them all" sounds really nice until you actually examine the sentiment.
sm90:
Mateusz you've gone full circle, I think you forgot that the KKK is actually racist.
Due to my background, and history battling immigration in my home country, I came to China with an attitude of tolerance and acceptance of people who are different, and cultures that are different. How can I expect to gain acceptance for my own relationship with my Chinese wife, if I can't accept other cultures and other people?
Despite this, I find myself voicing opinions about Chinese people (in particular Mainlanders, their behaviour and their government) which could be construed as racist. I don't have a problem with Chinese people or culture; Chinese in HK and Taiwan managed to preserve a lot more of their culture than those in the Mainland. In fact, Mainlanders seem to understand "Culture" as being unpleasantries and sacrifices like Gaokao exams, filial piety and so on:
http://space.echinacities.com/291796/blog/detail/2511
Since so much culture was destroyed by the Party's Red Guards in Mainland China, it probably helps locals cope with the loss, if it isn't recognised as culture.
What angers me about Chinese, is their starving farmer attitude: Life is too dire to care about impact of your actions on the community. Life is too serious to relax and enjoy yourself. Food is so bloody important it's ridiculous, and there's no time to care about politics, ethics or anything socially relevant. Me first, I need to show off my iPad, my oversized face-gain car and other foreign products, so that the schoolyard bullies that run this country won't perceive me as non-conforming or weak.
Is that culture? Perhaps. Does my dislike of it label me a racist or cultural supremacist? Open to debate.
Anyway, you seem to suggest we do it as a kind of "group acceptance activity". Like smoking in the schoolyard, so the cool kids will like to hang out with you. That isn't the intent of my ranting and raving, though it's probably true that other expats who experience the same frustrations find comfort in my words, and identify with me. So venting is the goal, and any group acceptance is unintentional side efect.
What does it matter, though? I'm in a tier IV city, the few expats I know here don't care much about these things. And we are definitely not getting organized in any way that could threaten CCP's Playground for the Rich.
estern:
I have to agree with you. There are many aspects of living here that are extremely frustrating. Venting this frustration occasionally isn't racism, although some would claim that it is.
Compare the views towards mainland Chinese with the views toward HK, Taiwan, Macau, Singapore and overseas Chinese on expat websites, that is the answer you are looking for.
Oh, another one of these assholes. 
No. Having opinions, even negative opinions about a place or a culture does not make a person racist. To be racist you need to have the belief that one race is innately superior to another. Saying that certain behaviors are are annoying, disgusting, or intolerable is not racism unless it presupposes that the people who indulge in it are categorically incapable of abstaining from it because of their race.
Trying to deflect criticism of these types with accusations of racism or even cultural chauvinism is kinda racist in its own right.What you end up doing is contending in a round about way that whatever behavior is being criticized is more than simply bad behavior but something that is somehow intrinsic to the culture.
Let's take spitting on the sidewalk. It's certainly a common practice in China, or was when I lived there. In fact its common enough for BJ to have prohibited the practice in 2008 in anticipation of the 2008 Olympics. But to say that we shouldn't complain about it because its just what they do and that it's cultural chauvinism to believe that its better not to spit than to spit conflates the bad behavior with the culture. In other word, we shouldn't expect them not to spit on the sidewalk because they are Chinese. What we are left with is what is normally referred to as the subtle bigotry of lowered expectation.
So, how does it feel to be a racist? I'm interested from a sociological point of view.
coineineagh:
Well said, but it will fall on deaf ears. Mainland Chinese are the most racist people I've ever met, but their nationalistic bias makes them incapable of admitting, or even perceiving, any of their own wrongdoings. The schools here should add the Theory of Chinese Perfection to the Physics text books.
mattsm84:
Some of them might be, but during my stay in China I found the ability that some of them have to recognize that sort of bullshit despite it having been spoon feed to them to be incredibly encouraging. So much so that it reaffirmed my faith in humanity.
coineineagh:
Wish I had met some of those people. All I perceive here are provincial attitudes with "no can do" and "ours not to reason why". Do the socially aware ones all live in bigger cities?
Yeah, i dont know if I find it cool, but China has made me a huge racist. Its a specialized kind i think. Previously I had always thought that racism was a " My race is best and other races are inferior" kind of thing. Mine is more of a specialized " All other races on the planet are superior to the Chinese " type of thing.
Funny thing is, that when i was a kid I was a staunch racist hater. Being from Vancouver there is alot of closet racsism towards the Chinese and Indians, and I had a huuuuge falling out with my grandfather and others over their racsist comments. Didnt speak for years, now my mom just tells me never to share my views with my extended family. My mom has been here, she gets it too.
Anyways OP, if your not trolling then your surely new to China. If you want to be an online shrink then the most facsinating phenomenon you can observe will be your own tumble down the racism well. Its a slow fall , but when you land you land with a thud. Enjoy the trip!!!
coineineagh:
When I moved to Amsterdam from my home village, I asserted myself as a racist. Probably a teenage thing to get attention and claim individuality/uniqueness. It didn't go well, and I made few friends. Luckily I never got into the extremism, because the other students were all progressive. It took about 18 months for me to come around. Part of the reason racism in China is so accepted, is that everyone does it, and people copy without thinking.
It is much less cool than amongst most mainlanders, that is for sure.
I rarely see racist comments on this site, and I would stand against every single one of them. Do not confuse race and culture/society (or absence thereof).
That is of course to the exception of the occasional anonymous comments from people no one knows, which leads me to ask WHY IS IT STILL ALLOWED.
coineineagh:
This isn't posted anonymously, and I believe nzteacher makes frequent comments on community blogs. It's a valid question. But I agree that expat criticisms pale in comparison to the attitudes of Nazi-worshiping, Chinese supremacist, Outdated-world-view, 'Communist'-reactionary (would be an oxymoron in any other country), smallminded, intolerant, xenophobic Mainland Chinese people.
Do I have to pay for the card? Can I get it online? Do I get any discounts with this card?
My culture is the best, because it is not the culture of a single place, but the shared culture of 2000 years of glorious civilization, taking the good of the Greeks, the Jews, the Romans, the French, the Germans, the Americans, the Russians, and all the great deeds by people black and white, Christian and Jewish, and putting them together in one beautiful soup call WESTERN THOUGHT
-A culture that forbids interaction, encourages isolation, and withdrawals from the world, while claiming superiority based on racial purity and xenophobia, is an inferior one.
coineineagh:
Haughty and provocatively arrogant. It rings true but should be phrased less disdainfully to be productive.
kingme:
Actually, I think I'm going to place this post elsewhere on here.
Shining_brow:
Should I point out that the Greek civilisations were more than 2000 years ago...???? :D
Oh, and the Greek and Roman civilisations were pagan... please let's not forget that, when including religion in your mix...rasklnik:
They may be pagan...but St. Socrates Pray for us, was a well known thought-joke...
Well, I have never been even remotely racist before coming to China. My school was full of people from different countries and I had friends from all races.
After coming to China, I could see a ton of racism and it has undoubtedly effected me. I find myself saying anti-Chinese remarks when I am mad but I am not racist against Chinese (how could I be... Chinese is not a race). I hate the ridiculous parts of their culture that defies logic and holds back the human race.
China does have its good points as we all know but unfortunately it fails miserably in the areas that matter the most. Such as human compassion, honesty, integrity, class, respect for others, self-improvement, willing to admit fault, common sense, logic, individual thought... and so on.
I've been accused of blatant racism on this forum by a member who is no longer with us. I was and still maintain that I am not a racist, for the very reasons that are noted in this thread. But Cultural Elitism is an interesting concept. A racist contends that there are superior and inferior "races" of people. Any deep thinker realizes that this is rubbish. But can a person rightly make the claim that some cultures are better than others? After all, while there really is only one race of people, there actually are many cultures. And since there are many cultures, can we rate them and give them a superiority quotient? By what yardstick should we measure it?
I would agree with Robk's comment above and say that any culture is judged by the lengths it goes to appeal to mankind's ideals of humanity. Almost every philosopher, theocrat, statesmen or artist has spoken up for the lofty qualities that separate men from beasts. But I would also add that since every culture fails to live up to our ideals, on what basis can any culture claim supremacy? For this reason, I think it's important that all who belittle Chinese culture (and let's face it, we all have), should temper their criticism with humility and respect for fellow humans.
Whenever I log into this website, I notice a few members logged on, and several times more -sometimes hundreds more - anonymous observers. Who are they? How would they judge our culture by the words we write?
My partner is convinced that China me him racist, and I frequently intervene to stop him sounding too much like a dick when he rants about China who have a naive, starry-eyed view of the country (i.e. everyone who hasn't been there). But he gets along incredibly well with, and has huge respect for, a bunch of Hong Kong and Taiwan nationals, and Chinese-Australians that he works with. So is he racist? No. Just infuriated by what he saw in China.
I'm not sure who this question applies to. I haven't noticed anyone in particular who is racist.
Hating certain dirty Chinese habits doesn't make someone a racist. If you think it does that makes you the racist because no one accused every Chinese person of having these habits. Maybe you could link to one of the racist comments.
Go to Africa for a while and you will come out a racist. China is nowhere close.
yongge:
You don't know much about Africa, do you? Ever heard of institutionalised racism, where people are discriminated against by law, simply because they are white?
Robk:
Are we talking about South Africa?
I heard a lot of white people lost jobs because the government took them and gave them to black people.
Governments should stop make rules where companies hire people of certain sex or color... it is all stupid. Companies care about profits and should just hire whoever have the qualifications for the job.
Eorthisio:
I have many Nigerian friends and some who from other African countries (Cameroon, Kenya, South-Africa, ...), none of them threats me differently than they would with other Africans because I am Caucasian, as said by Robk the problems in South-Africa come from the government that is institutionalizing anti-White racism as a mean to control the Black majority and get re-elected, it is used to increase their own personal profits and not for the well being of the country or its people, the people are not the problem, racism is not a natural state of mind, the governments in every countries should stop telling people how to think or how to live, and the CCP should be the first to stop because they are the worst.
Shining_brow:
I'd agree with you Robk about hiring policies - but unfortunately, many bosses aren't that egalitarian, and they will hire on such preferences... ie, hire the hot <insert appropriate type>girl/boy over the much better qualified <insert other type>.... government intervention is required until humans (or at least, those bosses who do the hiring and firing) can think like that of their own free will.
And, just because a whole stack of caucasians got fired and replaced by black Africans doesn't mean it was a bad thing... for all we know, those employed were much better... and those laid off were only there because of the discrimination!!! (although, honestly, I doubt it - the education system had been rigged for generations to give whites a much better chance at skills, qualifications and experience... :( )
ambivalentmace:
racism is bad in every country in africa, makes bigots in america look like angels in comparison, the lighter skin tribes look down on the dark skin tribes, have seen this everywhere in africa, the fula tribe in guinea had to be the worst racist i ever witnessed up close, but blacks have suffered in the west and god's chosen people can never be called racist, you would the violate the cultural norms of political correctness.
Hey, racism is never cool, and that goes for you kids at home too; say no to racism....... and most drugs.
I wish to make an addendum. While Western Thought has reason to boast, it also has reason to feel a little embarrassed. It was not too long ago that a certain revolution of social thought had its advent among us, a revolution wherein many of us rose up against our scholars, our religious clerics, and our teachers, and tried to divorce ourselves from their ways and their thoughts, saying that we were usurping their rule over practice and thought in the West while we were still young and foolish. That movement, that Western Cultural Revolution, eventually ended, but its effects ripple throughout our society even today. Had those misguided revolutionaries had the same military might as he who shall not be named, one can only imagine what would have become of us. We came frightfully close to making the same fateful mistake China did. Let us remember that humbling thought while we acknowledge the inferiority of modern mainland Chinese "culture."
The ongoing wars at the moment are over religion.
You know, people blowing each other up because they think their idea of God is best.
Racism.... I don't think people are racist. I think it's all to do with associating political dogma with country of origin.
kingme:
There are hundreds if not thousands of religions in the world, but only one of them is actively making an organized effort right now to blow disbelievers up. Don't you watch Bill Maher or read Richard Dawkins? They're very much in agreement on this matter.
Mateusz:
Maybe at the moment, but it's hardly as simple as a religious disagreement. Muslims in the US aren't killing Christians in the US. There's a lot more to the Middle Eastern conflict than "Islam is evil". There is a reason Catholics and Protestants had been fighting (and still fighting in low level conflicts) in Ireland beyond ecumenical disagreement.
The fighting in Xinjiang aren't just Islam vs. Atheism.
(Also, just because Dawkins and Maher said something, doesn't make it fact)
Shining_brow:
"but only one of them is actively making an organized effort right now to blow disbelievers up."
And, as we look back through history, we'll see that it wasn't always the case.... Not sure if you're intending to defend Christianity (or any other religion), but please remember that (over the 1 million years or so of humanity's 'civilisation') less than 1000 years ago, Christians tried a veritable pogrom against Muslims (in the name of re-taking lands).
If your comment had any real validity, then you'd have to explain why the approx. 1.3 BILLION Muslims in the world haven't tried to wipe out or convert the rest of us already...., which, let's face it, wouldn't be all that difficult to do (if, as I presume you think) they'd all be willing to die in suicide bombings etc....
kingme:
Meh. America is where religions go to die. It's where Christians ignore the poor, where Jews eat pork, and Muslims are kind to their wives. It doesn't really offer good examples of any religions. I'm sure you could find a Christian in America who believed that Jesus was an extraterrestrial just as well as you could find a Muslim who didn't have terrorist sympathies. Again, I've just said the same thing Dawkins and Maher have said. As for the Crusades, you might recall that only half of the Christians stayed out of that mess. T'was the Western half (now the Roman Catholics) that led them, not the Eastern half (Eastern Orthodox).
I don't think I've ever seen or heard anyone referring to 'mongoloids', 'negroids' or 'australoids', or 'caucasoids' in conversation or forums.
I'm not racist. I'm an ethnocentrist. My culture is far superior to the culture in China in many regards. Period. There's no debating it. If you disagree, you are wrong.
rasklnik:
I agree but you should provide proof, not just words....
I recommend "The Ugly Chinaman' by a Bo Yang
or any works of Lu Xun.
LesterF:
He's a hulk. You know, those tall, muscular green people. I concur, he is superior!
Nah I don't think any significant group of expats think that racism is cool.
My guess is what you're calling racism are people who feel they are being realistic and aren't making excuses for the locals which is completely different.
If I hear somebody droning on about how great this place is or how the local culture is better it just sounds really fucking naive...and that's ok for somebody who is fresh off the boat and trying to have a good attitude. Nothing wrong with that.
But anybody who's been here a while and still chooses to ignore the pretty significant social problems here (and no just because a western country isn't perfect doesn't excuse the problems here) is either blinded by how women here are interested in them (never heard a western girl saying that stuff) or was just so completely uncompetitive in the west that what they can do here without effort masks the issues for them.
That doesn't make anyone racist either. It's not like day-to-day life is only inconvenient for us, it's still a pain in the ass for everyone with little in the way of legal security and tons of bureaucracy with no trust. It's not racist or even untrue to say this place is a huge pain in the ass.
Screw it. Racism is cool!
Down with all whites, blacks, browns, yellows, reds and anything in-between!
ambivalentmace:
yes, being an equal opportunity hater has great merits.
