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Q: Should other countries accept Chinese degrees?
"My teacher said I should change my grades to get into a better school"
I am sick and tired of hearing this. And it is so damn easy and done out in the open. Even cheating on the TOEFL and IELTS.
But then they get into a school abroad and find a way to get a degree.
10 years 8 weeks ago in Teaching & Learning - China
My UK lecturer told me once that the you can tell the quality of a degree by looking at the type of products the country churns out. Classic!
My wife repeatedly failed her TOEFL/CELTA in China. She spent all the money she had to keep taking the tests.
Her English is a lot better than most Chinese in America who attend our colleges. They google translate their way through the classes. I watch them do it. I used to help tutor them. Many of them aren't even going to college legally, lol.
coineineagh:
Sounds like a Chinese TOEFL teacher wants their bribe... just pay them to stop failing her.
Hulk:
We're in 'murica now, my friend. She's communicatin' with udder muricans like it ain't no thang.
I've been teaching Comp. Sci. in a major public university in China, several years... The degrees here are of dubious value, apart from the top 5% students of a given university. Most of the exams can be passed with rote learning (never ever open test, just need to barf the teach materials), students projects are ridiculously sloppy yet get good grades. Grades are artificially kept in the [75, 100] range, because anything else would be "making the students loose face". Apparently, it's more important than actual education value... The net result, well, anybody working in the industry here, who audited fresh recruits, knows the drill : after years of study, the students are useless and demotivated. The top 5% who are motivated and managed to learn *despite* the teaching style, they usually get funds to study abroad.
DrMonkey:
I had one class during the week-end, for workers who wanted to pass a Master diploma. The class was about software engineering, and I clearly specified that a requirement to take that class was a few years of experience of programming. 2 students out of 60 could program, the others couldn't, some never actually programmed in their whole life. Only 20 students came to the classes, yet at the exam the 60 people came. How you can come to an exam without ever coming to a class... sounded normal to them, and they complained to the school director when they got the grade 0. Director who changed their grade : the students paid for the class, so they have to get a good grade, right ?
Laowei:
"Grades are artificially kept in the [75, 100] range, "
Ahhhh, all Chinese students are above average. Lol
A degree should never be the basis for getting anything. China may be somewhat famous for producing these sub par students, but they have lots of PHD students abroad as well. I don't' think it's possible to fake your way via translation at that level. And if students are cheating in schools, it's really up to the teachers and the system to catch them. Somethings gotta give at one point. A research paper, or another research paper, or the one that comes after that... At one point you may not be able to buy the next one, or at least, you won't be able to pay somebody to do a final presentation or thesis for you.
I mean you shouldn't blindly award people positions based off of degree alone. That's what interviews are for, no? To make sure the person you're talking to knows their stuff?
DrMonkey:
About 100% China-made PhD students... What I've seen (top 3 university in China for Comp. Sci.), well, eventually the PhD advisor is exhausted of pushing the student all the time for everything, getting mostly shit. So once they managed to push the student to publish 3 shitty papers in the journal under the control of the lab's boss, the student got his PhD and leaves for greener pastures.
Englteachted:
I've noticed two things happening in the states.
First, schools help them along because of the money.
Second, Chinese network and work together to pass classes, this includes Chinese professors.
Also many who fail just buy fake degrees.
jetfire9000:
It's a bit funny that China and America are having some similar situations appearing in upper level education. As we all know, Chinese institutions won't give you too much of a problem with your grades, or your dissertations either. The price they are charging you is pretty significant for this side of the globe, so maybe you being a cash cow plays into being part of that motivation not to fail you, too. Chinese has the expression "don't bite the hand that feeds you" too, but that is inherent knowledge here, whereas we have to use the phrase to remind each other.
I think it is okay if Chinese students pool together and network to help each other pass. It isn't ideal in any means, but it doesn't seem to be breaking any rules.
What are the chances of Chinese people keeping the economy alive? I know that local businesses must love them.
This is why most countries will only deliver a student visa to Chinese applicants after an interview (or several) and a deep and untrustful review of the credentials.
In all fields possible, even arts, it's rare to find anything more than an average student - let alone one that actually has any sort of interest in what he does. Without motivation, there's nothing you can learn to do efficiently in 3 years, especially when it's mostly the parent's choice. On top of that, we all know the actual contents of the teaching is just force-feeding with very little to no practice, plus all the corruption problems and fake grades we know about.
When everyone is good, no one is good. What's funny is that many universities in various countries seem to have been completely unprepared to manage that kind of students, leaving them helpless facing the mountain of not-giving-a-shit-yet-cheating-the-system they were confronted with. I guess that's what happens when you expect adults and you get 20-something teenagers.
So, no, as is, Chinese degrees shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone in any field. And they actually are not. And this makes me sad, because there is so much potential wasted. Nevertheless, I'm sure it's still a good deal for the countries, because they can keep the minority of actual good students and send the rest back home with a piece of paper to show to daddy and a nice retro-engineering job.
Englteachted:
Which countries? I know a lot of students studying in Canada, UK, America and Australia with forged documents (purchased degrees, cheated on the TOEFL/IeLts, changed scores and 3 that can't speak a word of English, literally!)
jetfire9000:
I'm curious if they ask the same questions during these visa interviews. I had an English client whose primary study purpose was to get me to help her pass the interview. She didn't know one single world of English. I can't make this up. I had to translate the most simple things for her.
Everyday, we practiced pure verbatim. She would roll her eyes in the back of her head and literally spit it all out. The material of the day we were studying, she'd be really choppy with. But if you gave her one night to review, and came back and looked at those questions, she'd have it down perfectly. She seemed to have passed, because she has been updating We Chat from America. I'm surprised, honestly.
Chinese can sit down in their room and force themselves to learn.
They have discipline, whereas here I am at 12 AM struggling to fight off various distractions. =(
if i were an admissions officer i would keep chinese degrees stacked in the bathroom just in case i run out of toilet paper.
Oh hell no! China shouldn't even accept Chinese degrees, and some companies already don't.
No, in my experience all or almost all the chinese I know are working on the area they got job, not in the area the got their major. Anyway getting a degree in China at least for bachelor is so easy according to what many friends told me, seems like just need to go to school for 4 years and that's it, not big deal.
Another reference you could take is check the geography knowledge of chinese, I bet at least 90% of the ones you ask to will be embarrasing. I'm not saying that geography is the way to know if someone's education is good or bad but this point in addition to many other parameters can give you a clear idea.
Englteachted:
Masters and Phds are even easier. Once you are in it is automatic, you don't even have to show up to class.
jetfire9000:
I know several people who have had a very difficult time with their PHD's. (not so much Master's but Master's are more like an asterisk next to your Bachelor's these days.)
It is not completely realistic for us to assume that one can coast their way to a PHD, even in China.
Well, if you are curious, have a try with that.
I can see that the vast majority of people here say Chinese degrees are worthless.. I mean, sheesh, I agree. Chinese universities feel like diploma mills.
There's another side to the picture though, really. I mean, speaking from an American perspective, American university degrees are highly over-hyped and devaluing fast. And many of them have opened meaningless programs which attract loads of students for pointless degrees, too. We pay a lot more money for that too, often going in debt.
On average, a Chinese high school student knows a lot more English than an American high school, or even university student. This may not mean much since English is the lingua franca and Chinese isn't, but it has a heavy implication for those students who may actually put effort into learning Chinese. (It takes them a long time to catch up) No American, or anybody in the world for that matter, is going to be so good at pointing out Chinese provinces on a map, or pointing out those different "-Stahn" countries nearby. It's not really fair to say Chinese aren't good at geography.
I feel that Chinese education is more lecture based, and individual effort in one's free time is the most important factor of anything. This differs strongly from the Western approach which is forged by the weekly administering of quizzes, tests, and presentations. As far as liberal arts concerned, the lecture based method of Chinese education is okay. This is the way education has been in the ancient times and it is useful for abstract Liberal Artsy subjects at the very least. Just read your own research papers in your own time and develop yourself. Same with language study too.
In the end, I do not feel that Chinese people are less creative than Westerners. It's just a question of status quo. Chinese are definitely clever, but inertia is a ****. Creativity has long existed in the West, but it is only just being emphasized over here. More and more motives are beginning to exist to spurn creativity, but various forces in the market (or academic prizes, scholarships, or just copyright law) aren't really ripe to really push creativity yet here.
DrMonkey:
It's a USA problem, not a Western problem. I paid an annual tuition fee of 300 euros per year, from 1st year to Master (Applied math. then comp. sci.), then PhD was state-sponsored. I finished my studies not in debt, but with substantial savings. The state also subsidized my meals and my dorm room. The teaching was half lectures, half tutored sessions (20 students, 1 professor, working on open questions to get a hand at the lessons), with practice projects thrown-in. We had internships too. Sport was almost for free. Exams were usually made of a few open questions or a case study, never from any books. The university library was well stocked in books, so no need to buy expensive books. One exam every 6 months. In science, the 3 first years, success rate is 30% per exam (early years are full of students who have no idea what they are doing at the uni). It was in a France, I know it applies to Germany and to Switzerland. Engineers of those countries have a reputation, so the training is no too bad. Not bad for evil euro-socialists ^^
Jetfire: You are wrong in so many ways that I need to just copy and paste what you said and go over it point by point.
"There's another side to the picture though, really. I mean, speaking from an American perspective, American university degrees are highly over-hyped and devaluing fast. And many of them have opened meaningless programs which attract loads of students for pointless degrees, too. We pay a lot more money for that too, often going in debt."
They are over hyped and de valuing according to the Chinese perspective. The reason for this is because many Chinese are finding ways around doing the work while abroad. Whether it is corrupt small schools, cheating, getting extra help along the way or even outright failing out and then buy a fake degree. Also Chinese students miss out on half the learning experience by sticking to their own Chinese international students rather than mixing in with the campus culture. Must of practical learning comes from participating in the campus organizations and activities. So when they come back to China, they are just marginally better.
"On average, a Chinese high school student knows a lot more English than an American high school, or even university student. This may not mean much since English is the lingua franca and Chinese isn't, but it has a heavy implication for those students who may actually put effort into learning Chinese. (It takes them a long time to catch up) "
This is where I do not believe you are American. This is typical BS that many are brainwashed into thinking. "I know more about foreign country than foreign country people." This is why people here seem to think their incorrect chinglish is right. As I have tried to explain to countless Chinese English speakers that the grammar rules often do not apply. You applying the grammar rules in every case does not make you better than native English speakers, it actually makes you wrong and not fluent.
"I feel that Chinese education is more lecture based, and individual effort in one's free time is the most important factor of anything. This differs strongly from the Western approach which is forged by the weekly administering of quizzes, tests, and presentations."
Complete and total BS.
Spending your free time memorizing facts you do not understand is a positive?
Weekly papers and classroom discussion forces you to use and manipulate the information . Use the information to come up with new ideas. Apply the information in different scenarios. Test and challenge the information to find out if it holds up to scrutiny.
I will give you an example. I asked my PHd physics class "Why doesn't the water at the beach freeze over during the winter?"
These were students who all had their Masters in Physics but they could not answer that simple question. Because they simply memorized the text book in order spit out the right answer for the test. When they do experiments they are simply redoing experiments that were done a long time ago, following instructions. They do not develop new theories to test.
" This is the way education has been in the ancient times and it is useful for abstract Liberal Artsy subjects at the very least. Just read your own research papers in your own time and develop yourself. Same with language study too."
This is completely mindless! Learn Art through lecture? Learn a language through lecture?
This is the problem with the Chinese education system, you say things and you have absolutely no idea what you are saying because the ideas did not originate from your own brain. You have no idea how what you say fits into reality.
"In the end, I do not feel that Chinese people are less creative than Westerners. It's just a question of status quo. Chinese are definitely clever, but inertia is a ****. Creativity has long existed in the West, but it is only just being emphasized over here. More and more motives are beginning to exist to spurn creativity, but various forces in the market (or academic prizes, scholarships, or just copyright law) aren't really ripe to really push creativity yet here."
Do you even know what you are saying here? Some parts of this , you actually contradict yourself. Other parts are just words with no ideas.
You said Chinese people are just as creative, you are right!!!! But the problem is the Chinese education system kills creativity.
You said the market conditions are not right for creativity, BS!! The most successful businesses that did not copy are successful because they were creative thinkers. And you listed copyright laws as an inhibitor to creativity? So you think copying someone else's idea is creative? Copyright laws don't stop people from being creative.
Getting back to American Universities, the problems are that their are too many silly degrees, College is pushed on everyone and standards are falling.
But a degree is still valuable. Unemployment among BA degree holders is around 4%.
Degree holders earn a lot more money over their lifetime. These are facts.
jetfire9000:
You have me on the first point, it was due to a typo I made. Instead of saying "Chinese know English better than Americans do" I meant "Chinese know English BETTER THAN AMERICANS KNOW CHINESE."
Well, about the creativity.. If you had so much of an ounce, you may have been able to deduce that simple mistake, but it seems you failed.
I was making these posts late at night, having had some intense gym workouts during the day, and very little sleep to go off of from the previous day. (It is the season for applying for degree programs in China, I have been working hard to meet the deadlines) Then I sauntered on over to this forum, cause, to be honest, I'm a big procrastinator.
My last point is not a contradiction. You just seem to lazy to consider it? I said it is not that Chinese are not creative. It is that their society hasn't traditionally pushed it. Maybe you can do research about the Chinese exam system and then it will make sense. But remember that China as a civilization created four important inventions and created many rich philosophies.
jetfire9000:
About the copyrights. Go to a DVD store, and see how much one of those movies sells for.
Apply that logic to other things, see if it is worth doing the R&D investments into a product that will just end up being copied or stolen. The game has always been copying others that have a leg up on you (foreign firms here) , not wasting your own energy to get a leg up on somebody. In the West, there was a lot of excitement to relating Sun Zi's Art of War to business. You may consider that taking advantage of weak copyright laws could be an advantage over here. Using little, to gain a lot. We can't really expect our Western laws to apply everywhere, or be enforced as we hope them to be. This is another reason why China has traditionally not had a recognizable name brand. The government , however, is actively strengthening these laws though. This is just one aspect which is going hand in hand with everything else they are doing to try to transform the economy to an American type consumption model.
jetfire9000:
By the way, I just wanted to add that I love how you are telling me that my having better grammar makes me less native of an English speaker. That, in my opinion, is wacko.
Are you mad about something？ Are you in China? If so... maybe you aren't in the right place? Your style of refutation suggests to me that you are angry.
Englteachted:
" As I have tried to explain to countless Chinese English speakers that the grammar rules often do not apply. You applying the grammar rules in every case does not make you better than native English speakers"
This is what I said. Not knowing when and where to apply the grammar rules does not make you better. It makes you worse. Example if you apply the "i before e... " rule in every single case you will misspell a lot of words. You must know when to apply and when not to apply it. But it is good to admit you are Chinese. Further proof were your flimsy excuses. And by the way this only applied to the best Chinese English speakers. Most Chinese English speakers can't speak better than your average rapper.
Your own example goes against your point. China leads the world in pirated dvds, does that mean China does no longer tries to make movies? More specifically Hong Kong. China goes through a lot to ensure Hollywood movies are pirated and available online for free. But Hollywood movies still rake up millions. Copyright infringement only accounts for a fraction of lost profits. Chinese singers and actors are still millionaires. So your whole "Why invest in R and D?" does not stand up to the reality. You're just making excuses and talking BS.
Englteachted:
4 important inventions in 5000 years is a good thing? Also what has China done in the last 100 years?
If they are verifiable yes. Otherwise our credits and degrees from back home won't be accepted here. China seems to reciprocate on everything except citizenship.
Many Chinese if not all are taught to memorize books and its bad. they waste long hours in class over stupid stuff. most university kids don't even know what they are studying. they schools and government is only interested in the money not quality.
