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Q: Should other countries be wary of importing Chinese culture? [re-formulated]
We can rarely draw wide-sweeping conclusions based on singular events.
Ex. A Belgian tourist murders someone on the beach in the Caribbean. We can’t reasonably conclude many/most/all Belgian tourists are murderers. Even if a few Belgians murder people while on holiday, we can’t blame Belgium for that.
Similarly, we can't reach solid conclusions about Chinese culture influencing other countries based on limited data and isolated events.
Let’s look on the macro scale at how Chinese culture is influencing other parts of the world.
Is Chinese pop music growing in popularity outside China?
Is Chinese modern art persuasively dominating the art scenes around the world?
Are Chinese books and authors captivating a worldwide audience?
Are Chinese clothing styles copied the world over?
Is the Chinese education system being adopted far and wide as the best?
Are Chinese movies and TV shows conquering the entertainment habits of people in other countries?
Do families in other parts of the world strive to behave just like Chinese families?
Do the youth around the world look to Chinese youth for setting new lifestyle trends?
Is Chinese food any more popular outside of China than the popularity of other foreign food options?
Are the Chinese the envy of the world for epitomizing good manners and charitable behavior?
Are Chinese tourists and foreign residents truly welcomed in other countries with wide-open arms based on embracing the Chinese people and their culture, or is the welcome mat put out for economic reasons?
Just exactly what part of the Chinese culture is being exported and imported that it will significantly influence the cultures of other countries?
Why are mainland movies so unpopular? Because of govt restrictions on free thought/ expression. Same for music, art and everything else.
HK/ TW art (all inclusive) does breakthrough at times
There have been China towns in various countries, some for a century, has it changed the culture in those countries. America took the 1895 reparations money and used it to educate Chinese students in the United States to be engineers and build up China, so students have been coming to America for a 100 years.
I think the effects are minimal at best, living here does not make laowai change cultural norms, so it's actually a pipe dream and some things have made it worse.
For example, cheating scandals, nobody trust a resume in the west from a Chinese person. Restaurants and shops always giving a hand written receipt and insisting on cash so they under report revenue and thus underreport taxes. When you create a stigma of your culture that you a money hungry cheating untrustworthy tax dodger, your food and art are of no interest to me at all. Sort of like a leftists not listening to a conservative because he is wearing a Trump hat. It's just a waste of time. I have traveled all over the world and spent many days in China towns like Flushing, New York, San Francisco, Vancouver, etc. No English signs anywhere, in New York, only one hold out diner with coffee, eggs, bacon, pie in the whole area. Parking was cheap compared to Manhattan. I just don't understand how you brag about being an American now and not in China and proceed to build a crowded rat infested cubicle slum in New York and be happy. Open a restaurant in the middle of the street for lunch that is cash only and tear it down after lunch and open the street again to avoid taxes and a business license and all the servers are illegals and even the politicians eat there knowing they pay no tax. Drive through China town in Los Angeles and you can't tell what is a convenient store to buy a 6 pack of beer to take back to your motel room.
For those home bodies, I guess everything is utopia, but those of us who live in the reality, sorry your rose colored glasses need to be trashed.
ambivalentmace:
Your question would be great for a Japan forum, but not much substance for China, nothing to talk about, except the lack thereof. Hello Kitty, Sony, Toyota, have no Chinese equivalent in the west, The CCP always complains about the influence of western culture, perhaps they should consider why there culture does not influence the west while they live in the glass house of honor.
Why are mainland movies so unpopular? Because of govt restrictions on free thought/ expression. Same for music, art and everything else.
HK/ TW art (all inclusive) does breakthrough at times
I get what OP is saying, and he has a valid point. But at the same time, he overlooks the negative.
We don't fear the encroachment of Islam in Europe because of its influence on food, art, music or books. We fear the foreign values that clash with our own.
- A manipulable legal system led by religious heads.
- Sexism validated in scripture.
- Masculine culture that is too aggressive and seeks to disenfranchise women.
There is no bias against Chinese here. Even when Islam is just a minority, we already complain about it gaining a small foothold, and its followers displaying culturally unacceptable values in our country.
There are many Chinese who bring their Chinese characteristics with them to Europe.
- Conformist conservatism that considers jokes at the expense of powerful people, as sedition that must be opposed.
- Siege mentality parenting.
- Encouraging famous educational institutions to monetize their position at the expense of education quality.
- Stock-depleting, price-raising shopping hypes.
- High-stakes one-upmanship and fragile, exhibitionist egos.
- Horrible driving and tourism incidents.
- Imported superstitions and irrational, feminine fussiness.
- Subliminal racist hierarchies and promotion of pseudo-scientific racist ideology.
- Pursuit of disruptive self-interest as moral cause.
- Tax evasion, rules-lawyering, playing the victim card.
- Taking no responsibility for your role in society and the consequences of your actions.
- Attempts at bribery and corruption, often successful, that enrich the Chinese community and erode local integrity.
In the case of the YT blogger of the original, un-reformulated topic:
- Cruelty against homeless, elderly and children.
- Poisoning presented as sophisticated pastime.
- Humour with Chinese characteristics. I. E. humour not for a good laugh, but for an insecure blogger to assert his superiority and cement his position on the power hierarchy. Only a dreg from a society where people denounced unpopular neighbours and executed them not so long ago, that still imprisons political threats and sells their organs, could think that's what humour is for.
coineineagh:
On the upside, cultural subversion in Europe is not strong enough to seriously affect western societies, and we are becoming more aware of what is happening as it happens. But countries closer to China are already too far gone. From Taiwan to Indonesia, countries share the same cronyism, conformist values and starving farmer mentality. It probably won't happen here, but we only if we resist cultural subversion. But we shouldn't let OP-type accusations of bias tie our hands.
Englteachted:
Well fucking put. Most culture can co-exist with other cultures but Chinese culture and Muslim culture (non-moderates) can't.
Stiggs:
@ Ted. I think they (Chinese I mean) can and do co-exist with other cultures.
Chinese have been in most Western countries for decades now - since the gold rush days, living peacefully enough with no real problems.
Westerners have lived in China for what, only about 20 years I suppose, but mostly get along ok in the community as long as we aren't complete wankers, despite having a culture that's alien and even threatening to some locals.
coineineagh:
@Stiggs: Chinese in the West are becoming more abrasive in their interactions, but you are right that they've gone unnoticed and without major frictions for a long time. Conformist, non-aggressive culture is accepted by westerners easily: As long as it's not bothering us, what's there to complain about? But it's not going to stay like this forever; the Han chauvinist, Sinocentric ego will not remain subdued forever. It's only more recently, that the passive-aggressive cultural subversion is being noticed. Chinesa abroad feel bolstered by the increasing attention China is getting as a rising superpower. They display ethnic/cultural chauvinism, because they think Chinese & China have become powerful enough to get away with it. Mostly it's just a few insecure characters who lose their composure and overestimate their clout, but it's happening more frequently. I believe with all the embarassing dramas from Brexit, Trump and putin unfolding, Chinese will be putting on airs of sophistication and superiority more and more.
Stiggs:
@Coin. I can't say I've noticed Chinese becoming more abrasive in their actions - not to say that you're wrong, but I haven't seen it. Maybe it's just where I am.
Could it be though that there are just a lot more Chinese living abroad now and so statistically there are bound to be more incidents with crime etc and a lot more negative stories involving Chinese hitting the media?
coineineagh:
Try not to think in terms of clear-cut case of criminal offenses, but more like attempts to normalise Chinese characteristics. Like this Reset blogger guy tried. More often than not, bad behaviour does not lead to prosecution, and it just inches social norms slowly towards Chinese-style behaviour. That's cultural subversion, and it shouldn't be ignored because most of it falls under the criminality radar. Reset was just a failed attempt at lowering standards of dignified interaction. Don't forget the ones that succeed and go unpunished.
Stiggs:
It's not that I don't believe Chinese are trying to spread their culture and influence opinion, there are the Confucious institutes set up to do just that and the wu mao guys online.
But I find it really hard to believe that kid was part of any plot or scheme. The Chinese govt are always being embarrassed by the actions of their citizens abroad and have tried to control the problem by putting them on travel bans etc. The idea that they would send people overseas to deliberately do things that embarrass China and make it look bad seems pretty far fetched to me.
I'm pretty sure he was just an arsehole doing what he does - being an arsehole. You can take the peasant off the farm but you can't stop him being a peasant when he's off the farm.
coineineagh:
I wasn't suggesting any kind of organization or conspiracy. Cultural subversion is like any form of cultural exchange; there may be concerted efforts, but a lot of it is just unorganized people behaving by their own norms and habits, and with no plan or goal. It's only after the repercussions have permeated, that Chinese government finds other countries' people and leaders more relatable. I disagree with you about what Conficius Institutes are set up to do, though: It's been widely proven that they extend the government's arm of influence abroad. Chinese students abroad are monitored, intimidated, pressured into political silence, and even used to conduct (tech) espionage.
Stiggs:
Oh I know that's what the Confucious institutes actually do, I just thought they did it under the guise of promoting their culture though.
I suppose that's exactly what they are doing when you think about it.
coineineagh:
You got me there. It's our mistake for thinking that those institutions would be merely for exchanging language and literature.
I think the real danger today are the young earth creationists. AKA the Christian taliban.
They never mention China when they talk about Noah. And while Chinese have no idea who Noah was, folk such as Ted Cruz want to use missiles to teach them.
Any attempt at importing right wing Jesus should be avoided.
But I have no problem with importing socialist Jesus of course.
ambivalentmace:
Actually when you confront a Christian about China and ask them to show you in the Bible any reference to China and what prophets were sent by Jesus under the great commission to witness to all the earth which would include China, you usually get a tongue tied zombie response because it's not there. Then ask who the great writers of the 1st to 4th century are that wrote about Christianity being spread in the Asian continent and you get another blank stare.
ScotsAlan:
Exactly Ambi. God seems to have missed out China. The Mormons sorted out the US side.. but wait. There was that rebellion here in about 1860. The one where the Canton dude said he was the brother of Jesus. I forgot about that. I need to look it up. I think it was the deadliest rebellion in history, the emperor asked the west for help, and us Brits and the French burnt down the summer palace.
iWolf:
@ Scots I think you are thinking of the Taiping Rebellion/civil war. What a shit fight. Something like 20 million dead because of the old religion+politics+nationalism motivation by some Christian sect/cult. My memory sucks but i think it kicked off in Guanxi but most of the killing was in the north east. I'll Bing it laster for a refresher. But yeah, god worshiping was kind of done after that.
ScotsAlan:
Thats the one. Kicked off by a failed civil servant in Canton. Raised an army and raped and pillaged their way north.
