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Q: So how old 'IS' China?
I've heard 5000 years of course, and didn't question it. Didn't see any reason to. But i've seen it questioned on here a number of times and so wish to pose the question as to why so many question it. But don't get me wrong, i'm not questioning your questioning it; beyond what there naturally is to question, which are the facts in question. Are there any?
Know nothing of archeological history or otherwise myself....................hence my asking such a question.
The China we are living in is not 5000 years old. I suggest that maybe it's actually a country that officially started in 1949, but even that "China" is not 100% of what we see today. Isn't it entirely possible that the China of 2013 really sprouted roots in the early 80's? That would explain a lot of what we see everyday. Relatively infantile.
Traveler:
The so-called revolution of 1949 was in reality the beginning of a new CCP dynasty, carrying on from the previous dynasties, with Mao as the core of the party, or the de facto emperor. The role of the de facto emperor is now chosen by the party, rather than succession, with Jiang Zemin as the current core of the CCP.
Shining_brow:
Although, given the way guanxi works here, it's still pretty much a succession...
I like giving $#!+ around October 1st... pointing out the stupidity of saying it's "China's birthday" (eg, 62 years old), yet also saying it's 5000 years old...
(Oh, I just got it!!! One country - two histories! :p)
derek:
I stand by my opinion on this one. I am well aware of the claims of a 5000 to 6000 year history. The China we live in today is far removed from anything resembling those ancient times. China's forefathers would look on in utter shock at the state of today's "China".
Scandinavian:
@derek
the Mayan's would probably also be choked by present day Mexico (but impressed with the taco)
I think China started in 221 BCE, with the unification under the Qin Dynasty, which is where China's name actually came from. Prior to this was the Warring States Period, where China was actually seven separate states, each operating independently. However, it has changed shape and size constantly since then, and actually achieved it's greatest size, encompassing much of what is now China, when it was ruled by Mongolia, under Genghis Khan.
To say China is 5,000 years old is as non-sensical as the South China Sea and Senkaku claims, or the "We discovered the world before Columbus" hoax.
The way she's been throwing temper tantrums lately over a few unpopulated islands and hurt feelings, I would guess China is about 3, perhaps 4 years old.
Shining_brow:
I'd really like to give a thumbs up, but really... Traveler deserves 'best answer'... no? :)
cooter:
I'm not in disagreement with you, just had to get my little jab in there ;-)
Saying China is not X years old because it has changed is a bit disingenuous.
If I said USA cannot trace it's history past 1959 when Hawaii joined or that Britain cannot trace it's history past 1922 when Ireland seceded (or 1948 when the rest of Britain recognised the fact), or India prior to the unification under the Raj or the schism post independence, you would, (I hope), point out the stupidity of such statements.
Usually any nation is recognised as such so long as the history can be traced back, Britain was more than one country and if you go back far enough we were many different clans (even in England), the same applies to many countries including China. That doesn't mean they cannot trace their history back that far.
Traveler:
Australia can trace it's history back at least 40,000 years, and is recognised as the oldest surviving culture in the world.
However, it would be ridiculous to suggest that Australia as a country is 40,000 years old. There were many independent Aboriginal nations before the British arrived, but now it is unified into one country, as of 1901.
I think China unified as a nation in 221 BCE. Before that, it was many different nations. 1949 was just a change of government, one of many that followed civil wars in China's unstable history. But the political system didn't really change. It is still the same as that introduced by the Qin Dynasty, but with a different name
Shining_brow:
Getting into semantics....
And, since we are, I'd say:
when you can use an identifying term for a collective group of people, then we're heading in the right direction for this sort of question to be answered.
However, there's some major issues with this.. we refer to the 'Ancient Greeks'... who, while having many similarities in language and culture, were quite adamant about being distinctively different societies (and hence, cultures). You mentioned England... but, such a place (and people) didn't 'exist' until after the arrival of the Nords, and mingled with the Romans, Bretons, and later, the Normans... so, in that respect, it's pretty hard to trace 'English' back more than a few hundred (ie, 1000) years or so. However, if you want to talk about the 'British/Britons' (as distinct from 'English'), maybe we could go back a few thousand years.
Traveler:
OK. Using that argument, Australia is 40,000 years old, and makes China's history look insignificant. Yay Australia 
Hugh.G.Rection:
I would totally accept that China (as a nation) cannot trace it's history back past 221 BCE, that is virtually indisputable, since as has been said, the very name 'China' comes from the Emperor Qin who (I believe, but may be wrong) was the first to 'unify' China. I think though that the claims for earlier history may well be based on the facts that there are written histories showing an advanced civilisation prior to 221 BCE. Now you may argue that was not Chinese (and no doubt some will) but there was definitely an advanced (for the time) civilisation in the area that is now China prior to 221BCE. Therefore the people who now call themselves Chinese can trace 'their' history back prior to that date as no doubt they would identify themselves as going back into one of the 55 ethnic clans who evolved into the modern Chinese.
As to Australia, 40,000 years? OK if you say so, I'm not an expert on Australian pre-history. All I would ask is can the people who now live in Australia largely trace their ancestry back to those times and did they 'evolve' (culturally not biologically) into the nation that is now Australia. If your answer is yes then I will accept Australia is 40,000 years old. Although I would then have to look into why the modern historians do not give such credence while giving that same credence to China.
Shining_brow:
Yeah, I know what you mean....
As for Australia (good one, Traveler!! :D ), 3 answers to your questions - 1 - yes, they can culturally trace their ancestry back that far (well, archeologists can... their attitudes towards the dead, and their view of time makes much else a little more difficult. 2 - unfortunately, 'hisotrians' tend to only seriously look at Australia in reference to white-man's coming. Sort of similar to the way North America generally views their culture/nation. Not my fault!!! 3 - China's historians had their chance - they chose 5000 years! Can't go back and change it now :p
Traveler:
If you are talking about evidence of advanced civilisations, I will concede that there were fragmented civilisations in a small part of what is now China, along the Yellow River Valley in the NE. This was during the Shang Dynasty which possibly dated back to 1700 BCE, but more likely 1200 BCE.
There is a document supposedly written around 200 BCE describing the Xia Dynasty dating back to 2100 BCE, but it has not been corroborated, and there is disagreement between western and Chinese archaeologists as to whether it actually existed.
So China as a nation is 2200 years old, the Shang Dynasty can be verified at 3200 years, and if unverified reports are believed, the Xia, probably fictitious, is claimed at an absolute maximum 4100 years.
These are all far short of the 5000 year figure bandied about. I stand by my statement that China is 2200 years old, as the Shang and Xia Dynastys, if indeed they existed, are a small part of what later became China, and a culture that no longer exists.
I would say that the answer, if looking at it with western glasses is, either
1) it dates back to the Qin Dynasty
2) it dates back to the founding of the PRC
The western definition of a country is very tied up on territory, government etc. The Chinese definition of the same is tied up on culture. In this view the warring states period, even though at times it was a very messy situation, is still the same culture across all these states.
As the Chinese define their country in large based on the culture, then there is no distinction between the very different political states the area has gone through.
Scandinavian:
Regarding the name China coming from Emperor Qin. Not disputing that, but remember that China in Chinese is not China, but "the middle kingdom", so the naming in this case is probably not relevant.
