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Q: So many excellent Chinese English speakers but very few excellent foreign Mandarin speakers?
I know lots of Chinese people who have never stepped foot outside of China but speak really excellent English. Conversely, it is very, very rare that I hear a foreigner speak flawless Mandarin. Does that prove how difficult Chinese is or are foreigners just not diligent enough to master the Chinese language?
11 years 5 days ago in Teaching & Learning - China
English is mandatory for every Chinese student from forth grade or at least seventh grade to university second year . Considering Chinese population is really large ，it's very understandable that there will always be many students who are very good at it despite the education system and method are horrible .
GuilinRaf:
Actually, I think what he is saying is that it is a numbers game. With hundreds of millions of people studying English, you are bound to have a large number who speak it very well.
Now, this does not mean that it will be a significant portion of the population. As there are so many people here, the proportion who do speak it well may not be high, though the total numbers can be.
ohChina:
Haha yeah. How many is many, and how excellent is excellent?
I live in Nanning, I don't know where you are living, but here we have very few people who I would classify as having "really excellent English". There are many who have a passable level, but excellent, no. I think there are several reasons for this. One, the people who are taught English by Chinese teachers who themselves do not have excellent English. Two, I hear from many students here that they wish they could have more practice at normal conversational English while in school, as opposed to just following the book. Three, just the lack of practice outside of the classroom. Four , having to learn a new way of actually speaking, this is what makes it very hard for a lot of Chinese to properly pronounce Z, TH, J and R etcetera. Five, the learning books that are written that have poor grammar and sentence construction.
Equally, I know many foreigners here who struggle with learning Mandarin, including myself. However your question makes it sound as though Chinese people are so clever at mastering a really difficult skill and foreigners are so stupid just because they cannot. It sounds like yet another Chinese person who thinks simply because they can say "Hello, how are you", " I am fine thank you" and all the rest of the text learned English that they speak perfect English, but it takes a lot more than that.
In 10 years, I could count on one hand the amount that would be classified as proficient. Most Chinese people have very poor English skills, except in their own minds.
I never saw any point in learning Chinese, because it has absolutely no use to me outside China. However, I have met quite a few foreigners who my Chinese friends say have excellent Mandarin.
Oh, sorry. I was supposed to say that foreigners are stupid, and Chinese are smart? My bad...
JustinF:
After I say "ni hao", my Chinese friends act completely baffled and pour endless compliments on my flawless Mandarin skills. They sure do know how to play with face.
Traveler:
I was talking about people like Australia's former Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, who also lectures, in Mandarin, at Tsinghua University and the Chinese Military Academy. Apparently his Chinese is quite good...
For many hundreds of millions of Chinese, Mandarin is a second language. If you speak flawless Chinese, how many Chinese do you come across who aren't that good at it?
Jnusb416:
Exactly. I wanted to learn Mandarin in China, but so many people had accents on their Mandarin that it didn't help at all.
Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha!!!!!!!!! Where are you living? Shanghai? ?
Oh good, more baseless, leading, argumentative, and conclusory questions from the wumaos. More please!
Yes, there are lots of Chinese who speak excellent English and I think they should be commended for that. One of the main reasons most people give up learning Chinese or can't get to that "high level of proficiency" is because to the vast majority of us its still not essential or even really needed. Most jobs here still don't require Chinese (though that might be changing slowly) and within day to day life in China a high level of proficiency is not needed. Socially, most people who are interested in getting to know you can and would like to speak English with you. Within this context can you expect there to be many excellent Mandarin speakers?
In 2 1/2 years in Nanning I've come across no more than 4 'excellent' speakers of English and about another 5 who have sufficiently good English to hold a conversation with.
I think the 'test' or at least the one I apply for 'excellent' English is if we can hold a conversation and I don't have to dumb down my language or slow down the speed at which I speak, and tbh I've only come across that level once or twice.
Having said that my Chinese is abysmal, no excuses.
Jnusb416:
Really? I can think of 5 people off the top of my head that could speak some decent English, although only two of them were excellent. 4 of them were students at the college where I taught, although only 2 of them were my students. The other was an English teacher at that college. They weren't all from the same city, so maybe that is why there were so many in one place? I think there were actually several other students of mine who had a decent level of English, but maybe they were too shy.
SoFresh:
That's a good test. I've also only met a few people who I could talk to EXACTLY how I would talk back in America and they understood me no problem. In every case it was someone who not only studied English growing up but also lived AT LEAST 5 years abroad.
As far as Chinese people in China that can speak great English without ever having studied abroad. I think I've only met one, and her father was British so I'm not sure it counts :).
You're absolutely right i'm afraid. Any flak for having said so only came from those who can't speak any Chinese. I'm British and we Brits rarely become proficient in a foreign language. The reason of course is that English is 'the' language of business and commerce around the world, so we just wait for everyone to learn that instead. When we go abroad the rule of thumb is, when visiting a restaurant speak slowly and in the accent of the country you're visiting, and if that doesn't work, smash the place up.
SoFresh:
That's the big thing there. It's not that one is harder than the other to learn. It's that one is used everywhere in the world and one isn't....so naturally more people try to learn the one used around the world.
I personally find it hard to keep motivated with learning the language...it is such a slow crawl. For me, the basics are more than enough. On the other hand, I'd say the motivation to learn English is always going to be stronger given it's broader universal use.
For those who can access youtube, here is a link for the Chasers take on Americans learning a foreign language. Classic.
Actually, it's more the reverse.
I have NEVER met a Chinese who's English would fool me into thinking that they were native English speakers, HOWEVER, I have met 3 or 4 foreigners who locals said 'If they called me I wouldn't know they weren't Chinese!'
mArtiAn:
I've had people tell me i'd fool them on the telephone. Even had one girl on a phone-call think I was a Beijinger. My Chinese is 'not' particularly good. Go figure.
:
Wow mArtiAn, really? That should make you feel proud. I hope I'll have a similar experience...in like 5 years, at least. For now, I don't know, I am told I speak such great Chinese but I only know to say "hello and good bye".
SoFresh:
How much of that is just face though and trying to make you feel good. I speak very little Chinese and I have also had people on the phone or in person tell me how amazing my pronunciation is, when I know infact it's not.
For the Chinese people, do you say that because they have an accent or just because of their level of English. I actually know multiple Chinese people who spent 10+ years living abroad and their English is on par with a native speaker, the only reason I know they aren't native is because of their accent.
I don't know what you're talking about. While I do know my fair share of long term expats who speak it well, I also know many who speak Chinese extremely well, some who can read and write at Chinese levels. In Vancouver there is also a large amount of Non-Chinese who speak the language.
Anyway, as for those who don't speak it, that often has to do with not being in China to study, but being there to work.
And, unless you are Chinese, how would you know what "flawless" Chinese sounds like?
I look at it like this,....
If Chinese was the #1 international language for business in education. If you had to learn Chinese if you ever wanted to go to a top university. If you spent your youth studying Chinese and going to after school learning centers 7 days a week....... You'd see A LOT more foreigners who speak Chinese.
I don't think it's so much that one is harder than the other, they are both difficult languages to learn for non native speakers. I just think it's the simple fact that English is more common in the world and Chinese people grow up studying. While foreigners typically don't grow up studying it and even when they come to China they don't need to know it to get by.
I think cannot agree with that at all. If you are talking about actual numbers, then yeah, there are more chinese who speak english well than foreigners who speak mandarin well.
But I would look at percentages. The students who come to china with the purpose of learning chinese, pick it up at a decent level after a couple of years.
On the other hand, I work at a training school, and a lot of my students are highschool/university/recently graduated that are planning on studying abroad. And they have been required to study english since they were in grade school (not to mention the students who take outside classes). When they start, most often there level is "I am a student, I eat rice for lunch, my hobby is sleep,"
So foreigners, in my opinion, learn chinese pretty well if that is their goal. everyone else who is here for work just pick up daily phrases they need to get by.
