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Q: Some Buddhist monks .... fake or real ?
There is a sort of resurgence of religious interest for Buddhism lately, some monasteries renovated and some more under construction, and when I went to visit some of them, I was shocked at the high level of mercantilism, for example in Foshan one new monastery used the statues of the 80 divinities as 'protectors' against annual contribution ....you can see Mr XX contributed 10K and will have this divinity as protector for one year.....Mr YY has contributed 20K and will have that other divinity as protector for one year ad so on...
Plus the monks are to be paid and fed for each ceremony where their presence is required, not cheap either.
For a friend's mother who passed away, came 4 monks to conduct prayers for the dead, one service at 500 yuan per monk and double if double service were required....(each service around one hour)
Shocking was the fact that for dinner we have three tables, 10 guests per table except for that of the monks and 4 monks ate a table food for 10 and found it not enough, one monk was sent to ask for more food !.....no morality at all ! and certainly no frugality !
If I had any doubt .....their attitude convinced me that these monks were only money driven.
After saying their service at my friend's they were to go to another person's house to conduct another service....against payment of hard cash of course.
I wonder if there is any Body or Authority to control any excess or abuse by Buddhist monks in China ?
Alain, Buddhist monks on the mainland are under the control of the same body that controls the Catholic churches and the Protestant churches here. Only the Jewish synagogues in Shanghai and Harbin escape this authority. It is called something like the National Buddhist Patriotic Association (the Buddhist Association of China) and it is the official Buddhist regrouping. Are they real monks? Are they something else in disguise playing monks? Who knows...I ask the same of the Catholic clergy in my local church. The practices to which you refer were very prevalent in the old China and I guess that they have come back into play again. It is indeed sad. Actually, state subsidies to this official group have been cut back considerably over the years and as a result it has branched into more commercial activities to make money.
In Hong Kong monks are issued government IDs that they have to wear while they are in public because of so many fakes wandering around asking for donations and such. Of course, since this is Asia, you can easily get fake IDs. I even had one made up in HK just for the fun of it. The ID cost me 100HKD.
China is the home of the scam artist. If there is a way to get money, someone will figure a way to scam people. Morality means nothing to far too many.
Xpat.John:
And as a side note, even the 'real' monks are mostly just scamming to get money from people. Do you think all those amazing monasteries are free? Religion, as a whole, is just another way for people to separate you from your money.
Faith is free, blind worship and ignorance will bite you in the ass and have you saying, "thank you".
MondoRosa:
If the "real" monks, as you put it, are scamming then they would not be real monks. Real monks go on their alms rounds once a day for food, not for money. They do so as a way to establish renunciation and to reduce and dissolve their ego which in turn aids their meditation practice.
Other than that I agree with you and I would always have a healthy skepticism of this practice, particularly in China. I never think "this is Buddhism" when I visit any sacred site in China. I just think this is Chinese history and culture. Rarely do they actually have anything to do with the Buddha or his teaching.
Xpat.John:
I have nothing against Buddhism or any other religion as an ideal or point of view. But the Buddhist (and any other types) monks marching through the streets for their food is just a show put on for the faithful/tourists. Regardless of how faithful you are, would you really eat food handed to you by strangers? I know I wouldn't. So my guess is that they really don't eat that food, but that is aside from the point.
I understand the need to let go of ones ego in order to reach greater levels of meditation. But walking through the streets lined with people who bow to you and give you stuff is not a way to rid yourself of ego, I would think it would do the exact opposite.
MondoRosa:
If the monks are sincere in their practice of meditation then I imagine they would be acutely aware of whether or not this asking for food is polishing their ego or developing a sense of gratitude within themselves. I suppose only they would know. Agreed, perhaps the food would not be to my liking, but then again I have not chosen this particular lifestyle for myself. My understanding is that serious monks eat once a day before midday and are simply to be satisfied and grateful with what is offered.
Buddhism also has three main branches and to be honest I only know a little about Theravada (Tibetan and Zen the other two). My experience with Theravada certainly has not been in China. It exists mainly in Burma, India, Thailand, Sri Lanka...but definitely not China. Moreover, any monk that would charge money for his service, especially some odd death ritual, is a monk far away from the Dhamma.
And true, even though a meditation practice and accepting what food is offered is supposed to help to dissolve the ego, you can surely bet that for many it simply strengthens it...or forms a new identity to become attached to.
WOW ... if this is true, my thoughts on buddhism have been squashed......... I guess holier than thow really is cash money...I hate money!!!!!!!!!
Haaike:
I am not a Buddhist, but it is sad that people quote the worst examples of any religion in order to construct a one-size-fits-all proposition. The example of these "dishonest" monks is nothing more, I am sure, than a demonstration of how they fail their religionm and not of how their religion fails them.
same problem in Thailand, Isan at least, those fkrs walking around every morning collecting money. guess who they go to most and who gives most ? little old women who can least afford it. just a f'n scam due mostly to over-population vs. available/developed resources.
Here, anything....anything.... can be bought, sold or faked. This story doesn't surprise me at all. The only surprise here is if someone actually believes they are 100% legit.
I am wondering if anyone will take the trouble of sharing an authentic account of experiencing authentic Buddhism. I am not yet in China, but I refuse to believe that the authentic presence of Buddhism has not been witnessed at least once by at least one expat in China.
pogger34: If you actually took care reading what I wrote before, you would have no uncertainty that I fully accept the inauthentic Buddhist experiences you and others have had. That's not the point, however. My point was that it is irresponsible and sad that you have to construct a view of Buddhism, and, by extrapolation, other religions too, by confining your the sources of your argument to inauthentic experience of any religion. This is like quoting a few examples of Canadian men having murdered their wives and then concluding that Canadians are wife-killers. So, I'm firstly wondering whether you're aware of how tenuous your grounds are for the perception of Buddhism that you trade here, and, secondly, I'm wondering whether you could/would acknowledge, in principle at least, that any religion is greater than the sum of its inauthentic examples.
981977405:
Haaike, thank you for your good comments and your introspective and accurate answer. Please don't let them bully you as they surely will try.
pbrown22:
Nice point Haaike. People will try to use anything for their benefit even if that happens to be a religion. You can learn nothing about religion from this but you can learn lots about the state of people/society.
Interesting question. Fake for sure...I am not sure that the Buddha would have agreed with any of that!!
Buddhism with Chinese characteristics?
Joking aside, I think there are real ones in China somewhere, but I doubt they'd be in big cities or even out in public much at all.
As far as I've heard of, some "monks" you find in the city are married with kids
