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Q: Spoiled Chinese murder victims?
Yesterday, my wife told me one of her former classmates had been murdered.
A guy was murdered by his own parents. I was ready to console her about it.
But she told a story about the guy's abusive attitude, always laying blame on his parents for being poor, always demanding money, even being physically violent. Clearly he harassed them excessively. It's you're run-of-the-mill "a life for an eye" situation.
I was surprised that my wife felt the guy deserved to be killed. He had a sister, so then I said it's so sad for the sister that her parents will now be executed. Death penalty, right? Nope. Apparently only the mother gets a whopping 3 years in prison.
I don't know full details, but it clearly can't be self defense if there is a prison sentence. It can't be guanxi or bribes if these parents were truly poor, so it must be an air of sympathy and community support that the parents received from being victims of the visible harassment. But how far can extenuating circumstances go?
Then my wife draws a typical Chinese conclusion that gives me shivers: The boy got killed because he had been SPOILED too much as a child. Nice one: The parents are more criticized for their parenting than for the actual murder. It should be noted that there is no mention of bad education, disfunctional culture or a society where loving money more than family is the norm. Nope; it's solely the parents' fault he turned out bad.
I shudder to think how this simplistic reasoning will reflect on my kids upbringing, as my son Owen is in that "terrible two" phase now, where he's being very selfish and disruptive. But I see no signs of any tiger parenting attempts yet.
The conclusion is probably due to influence from the community that got the mother 3 years for killing her child. Even after 3 years of China, I'm still shocked hoe people can make bad decisions and form skewed conclusions. Can't wait to get out of China.
9 years 3 weeks ago in Family & Kids - China
No offense to your wife but many Chinese have sociopathic tendencies.
My girlfriend sometimes frightens me with her thoughts or reactions to other people killing themselves or things like poverty, yet she is a wonderful partner. Basically her reactions to an acquaintance killing oneself can range from "Too bad for him" to "He was a loser" but never any expression of sadness. Yet I know that inside she is very emotional, but she only breaks her iron wall in our very intimacy, never in public.
There is a saying that goes like "Chinese have 3 faces, one for the general public (no emotions, cold hearted, ...), one for their acquaintances (strong, no signs of weakness, ...) and one for their close relatives (emotional, show their weaknesses, ...)", the last is their true face, but sometimes they are also the second face with their very close relatives.
I don't know but think that many Chinese lack compassion due to the hard life they had under Mao, elders remember and they passed it onto the youth by telling stories. Back then Chinese were surviving, not living, there was no room for compassion.
And I must admit to have turned a bit sociopathic myself after that much time in China.
ScotsAlan:
You might have a point about the Mao effect Eorthiso.
I doubt your GF is old enough to have actually suffered from his legacy, you have a point.
And I need to invoke Goodwins law.
Germany had a bad leader at one time. And afterwards the German people renounced him. They said he was bad, we are not him.
As a result, Germany is now an economic powerhouse, and one of the most anti war nations on earth. It has one of the lowest gun crime rates in the world, it rates amongst the highest industrial productivity in the world, and it has some of the best social care on the planet.
What is the difference between China and Germany?
We all know the answer to that.
Lets add in Japan. They became an economic powerhouse too. But with Japan, there was no individual person to blame for what they done, so their was a sort of "shared guilt". I don't understand why, but the allies wanted Hitler dead, but the Japanese Emperor to continue.
Now, I believe, if the allies has executed Hirohito in 1945, Asia would be a much more stable place today.
So you have a good point Eorthisio, the badness has not been purged. How can you respect good, if you still have to show reverence to the bad?
sorrel:
the current 20 somethings were raised by their grandparents who were involved in and experienced the CR.
It will take a long time for the effects of this era to be erased from thinking.
However, with new (ahem) restrictions being imposed, it might take even longer.
gouxiong:
dear ScotsAlan,
I find your point about double standard of allies in Europe and Asia quite interesting - I was not thinking about that.
May be the point was that Japan was in war with Russians (as agreed between Stalin and Roosevelt that USSR enters into the war with Japan 3 months after the end of the war in Europe) and the West was afraid that weakening Japan too much could end up that USSR grabs big part of Japan together with Korean peninsula.
Or may be that allies wanted to have piece in Europe but certain turmoil in Asia was welcome ...
Interesting point though ...
gouxiong:
Dear Eorthisio,
I do not find it so strange that the people do not pity much those who commit (or attempt to commit) suicide.
I think that people committing suicide are clearly ill and require medical assistance but they rarely raise too much sympathy more or less anywhere in the world.
The latest Germanwings crash case in Europe - if it really turns out that it was the suicide of the pilot - will raise little sympathy for people committing suicide in wide public ...
Shining_brow:
@ Scots - "Now, I believe, if the allies has executed Hirohito in 1945, Asia would be a much more stable place today."
Please explain...
GuoXiong - the suicide rates in other countries raises compassion, and sympathy for the real victims (the families), and thus, something - usually quite public - will be done about it byt the government, or non-profit humanitarian organisations. In China, it gets ignored.
gouxiong:
Dear Shining_brow,
I actually do not think so. I never noticed that anybody in Europe would ever care about suicide rate ration in Japan - just certain types of magazines like to illustrate such articles with a person falling from skyscraper.
I also did not realize that certain increased suicide rate in for instance Finland during winter would raise anybody's attention except again of few articles saying that it can be caused by lack of sunshine.
Of course the thing can be different if it's somehow touches you or your friends but even in such cases a lot of people refers to suiciders as 'strange persons' - probably on the account that committing suicide usually precedes depression which in many cases isolate the person from the society.
Of course it's true the tougher the life the more 'pragmatic' the people must be in order to survive successfully - in that case Chinese must be much more pragmatic than by overgrown welfare system 'spoiled' Europeans. But I do not think it's so obvious especially on the attitude towards people committing suicides.
ScotsAlan:
@ shining... because with Germany, one man could be blamed. With his death, his spell was broken and people could come to terms with what happened, and the healing, understanding, and sorrow could begin. They could put blame on him because he was gone. With Japan, there was no single architect, and the Godlike emperor was allowed to continue. So the Japanese had no individual to blame. The link with the emperor was not broken. But thats just my stupid theory.
Eorthisio:
Japanese never lost faith into their imperial family, they might not be worshipped like gods anymore but they are still highly respected even by the youth.
I think that the US did not kill Hirohito to avoid more resentment from the Japanese people and try to ensure that Japan would not turn Communist as a result of some stronger anti-US sentiment.
Back then the worry was the Soviet Union, not China or the overall peace in Asia.
Another last minute change that might have been decided to prevent the rise of Communism in Japan was to bomb Hiroshima instead of Kyoto, the last being a sacred city with many temples and castles it is likely that Japanese people would never have forgiven the US for it.
Without knowing anything at all about this situation other than your description, I actually (mostly) side with your wife on this one.
Everyone here goes through the same system. I'm not saying it's great or even good but most people don't feel the need to kill their own kid after he or she goes through it. There had to be something wrong there.
For parents to do that - and it can't have been easy, far from it - I think there had to be a reason other than he's just angry and doesn't respect his parents. Maybe he was being overly violent in public and at home, showing all the signs of being the next nutter to walk into a kindergarten with a knife and start kiling kids or something. Maybe they were scared for their own safety, and other people's, and just acted in what they felt was for the good of society and their community.
The fact that the mother was given a light sentence could be a reflection of how the community felt about the son and his anger issues, and how the parents handled the problem they caused through 'bad parenting', for the good of the village.
I know what you mean coin. I have known my wife for 10 years and she still surprizes me in the same way your wife has.
For example, a noodle shop in our street closed and was converted into a fruit shop. I mentioned this to my wife, and I suggested the noodle people must have gone back to their hometown because their two kids were getting to school age.
"oh no", she replied in a preoccupied manner, "The woman threw herself from window of their apartment".
I had a wtf moment at that. I could not understand my wifes matter of fact attitude.
It is a very icy view on things isn't it?
Because you spoiled your child, your child was too demanding and so you killed him...
So the murder is a result of the former action which is being spoiled. Therefore you will be sentenced to three years for spoiling the child but not murder.
Even writing this hurts my head... I may black out soon from using too much Chinese logic... oh god... here comes the migraines!
coineineagh:
I think this case is being used by those 'discipline' fanatics who glorify their form of childcare, namely terrorizing your kid from a young age. Blame, burdens, pressure and punishments. If something goes wrong, clearly you didn't terrify your child enough. Anything wrong with society? More terror parenting is the solution! And the copycat cattle believe it wihout question.
Stiggs:
But what if the parents realized they have raised a monster? What is the responsible thing to do then? What if he has already killed the neighbors cat and sodomized their dog, and the parents think they could be next? Or the kids next door? What do you do?
Who knows what the real story is.. I think for parents to kill their son there must be a real reason there, it's just not something parents do normally.
Shining_brow:
While not totally disagreeing with you Stiggs, the fact that 11 year old girls kill themselves for being sent home for not doing homework... or 11 year old girls being beaten to death for copying homework... (and that's for the girls who are allowed to live to such an age, and get educated) suggests that this place has some serious issues regarding parenting (and concepts of life), such that murdering one's child isn't that great a leap in this society. If homework is a reason to die, it says it really doesn't take all that much!
No offense to your wife but many Chinese have sociopathic tendencies.
My girlfriend sometimes frightens me with her thoughts or reactions to other people killing themselves or things like poverty, yet she is a wonderful partner. Basically her reactions to an acquaintance killing oneself can range from "Too bad for him" to "He was a loser" but never any expression of sadness. Yet I know that inside she is very emotional, but she only breaks her iron wall in our very intimacy, never in public.
There is a saying that goes like "Chinese have 3 faces, one for the general public (no emotions, cold hearted, ...), one for their acquaintances (strong, no signs of weakness, ...) and one for their close relatives (emotional, show their weaknesses, ...)", the last is their true face, but sometimes they are also the second face with their very close relatives.
I don't know but think that many Chinese lack compassion due to the hard life they had under Mao, elders remember and they passed it onto the youth by telling stories. Back then Chinese were surviving, not living, there was no room for compassion.
And I must admit to have turned a bit sociopathic myself after that much time in China.
ScotsAlan:
You might have a point about the Mao effect Eorthiso.
I doubt your GF is old enough to have actually suffered from his legacy, you have a point.
And I need to invoke Goodwins law.
Germany had a bad leader at one time. And afterwards the German people renounced him. They said he was bad, we are not him.
As a result, Germany is now an economic powerhouse, and one of the most anti war nations on earth. It has one of the lowest gun crime rates in the world, it rates amongst the highest industrial productivity in the world, and it has some of the best social care on the planet.
What is the difference between China and Germany?
We all know the answer to that.
Lets add in Japan. They became an economic powerhouse too. But with Japan, there was no individual person to blame for what they done, so their was a sort of "shared guilt". I don't understand why, but the allies wanted Hitler dead, but the Japanese Emperor to continue.
Now, I believe, if the allies has executed Hirohito in 1945, Asia would be a much more stable place today.
So you have a good point Eorthisio, the badness has not been purged. How can you respect good, if you still have to show reverence to the bad?
sorrel:
the current 20 somethings were raised by their grandparents who were involved in and experienced the CR.
It will take a long time for the effects of this era to be erased from thinking.
However, with new (ahem) restrictions being imposed, it might take even longer.
gouxiong:
dear ScotsAlan,
I find your point about double standard of allies in Europe and Asia quite interesting - I was not thinking about that.
May be the point was that Japan was in war with Russians (as agreed between Stalin and Roosevelt that USSR enters into the war with Japan 3 months after the end of the war in Europe) and the West was afraid that weakening Japan too much could end up that USSR grabs big part of Japan together with Korean peninsula.
Or may be that allies wanted to have piece in Europe but certain turmoil in Asia was welcome ...
Interesting point though ...
gouxiong:
Dear Eorthisio,
I do not find it so strange that the people do not pity much those who commit (or attempt to commit) suicide.
I think that people committing suicide are clearly ill and require medical assistance but they rarely raise too much sympathy more or less anywhere in the world.
The latest Germanwings crash case in Europe - if it really turns out that it was the suicide of the pilot - will raise little sympathy for people committing suicide in wide public ...
Shining_brow:
@ Scots - "Now, I believe, if the allies has executed Hirohito in 1945, Asia would be a much more stable place today."
Please explain...
GuoXiong - the suicide rates in other countries raises compassion, and sympathy for the real victims (the families), and thus, something - usually quite public - will be done about it byt the government, or non-profit humanitarian organisations. In China, it gets ignored.
gouxiong:
Dear Shining_brow,
I actually do not think so. I never noticed that anybody in Europe would ever care about suicide rate ration in Japan - just certain types of magazines like to illustrate such articles with a person falling from skyscraper.
I also did not realize that certain increased suicide rate in for instance Finland during winter would raise anybody's attention except again of few articles saying that it can be caused by lack of sunshine.
Of course the thing can be different if it's somehow touches you or your friends but even in such cases a lot of people refers to suiciders as 'strange persons' - probably on the account that committing suicide usually precedes depression which in many cases isolate the person from the society.
Of course it's true the tougher the life the more 'pragmatic' the people must be in order to survive successfully - in that case Chinese must be much more pragmatic than by overgrown welfare system 'spoiled' Europeans. But I do not think it's so obvious especially on the attitude towards people committing suicides.
ScotsAlan:
@ shining... because with Germany, one man could be blamed. With his death, his spell was broken and people could come to terms with what happened, and the healing, understanding, and sorrow could begin. They could put blame on him because he was gone. With Japan, there was no single architect, and the Godlike emperor was allowed to continue. So the Japanese had no individual to blame. The link with the emperor was not broken. But thats just my stupid theory.
Eorthisio:
Japanese never lost faith into their imperial family, they might not be worshipped like gods anymore but they are still highly respected even by the youth.
I think that the US did not kill Hirohito to avoid more resentment from the Japanese people and try to ensure that Japan would not turn Communist as a result of some stronger anti-US sentiment.
Back then the worry was the Soviet Union, not China or the overall peace in Asia.
Another last minute change that might have been decided to prevent the rise of Communism in Japan was to bomb Hiroshima instead of Kyoto, the last being a sacred city with many temples and castles it is likely that Japanese people would never have forgiven the US for it.
Seems to be another nail in the coffin for Chinese parenting.
But the child was the parents property. They shouldn't have been punished at all.
Just curious, but do you know the details of how they murdered him ? Seems to me it would be "logical" to kill ones offspring with poison. Im using the word "logical" very loosely here, obviously since murdering soemone isnt too logical now is it.
I ask this question because I seemed to remember watching those crime investigation shows in the states, and the manner of death can profile what type of murder it was. [example: stabbing someone numerous times is typically a passion/hate/estranged lover type of murder.]
Things never heard in China.....
"Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the word EMPATHY"
Its a big failing in this society. Really spoils things and devalues the place.
But of course its not seen that way.
Ikea gave more in aid to the Philippines after the recent typhoon than China did.
Swedish self assembly furniture company VS the worlds biggest economy and self proclaimed centre of the world......WIN!!!!
Shining_brow:
But many ppl don't like the Philippines... they try to take China land, and say bad things about China...
coineineagh:
Yeah, Pinoys are just as bad if not worse. Amok anyone? When bottled-up face loss causes you to go on a machete killing spree and forget it afterwards. Or how about sudden death syndrome, men dropping dead out of no other ailment than shame. Ridiculous. The "catholic" women are open 24/7 to the highest bidder and add new depths of depravity to the terms hypocrite and sanctimonious. A fired police chief (no guanxi with the new governor) held a busload of HK tourists hostage to demand his job back - the Chinese government implored Philippines to save the tourists' lives, and as a response they send in the military guns blazing. Most of them died in crossfire while the incompetent Pinoy military were shooting at ONE man. Deliberate or stupid? Either way they're assholes, and they should be happy China sent them anything at all. I would've dispersed some silver nitrate in the clouds to keep the tornado going.
Like Eorthisio, I've become a proper sociopath.
Having said that, he clearly had it coming. How D.A.R.E. he give his parents such grief? Three years in prison for the mother? Are you kidding me? She should be paraded around the streets as a hero for upholding the one-child policy by making his sister the only child.
You know, that's probably why it's only three years. It's sending a clear message to parents: if you got two kids, by all means, kill one of them and you'll get a light sentence.
They'll probably get more money for the daughter than the son took away from them.
I figure it's a good way to counter the growing rise of unmarried men! Bump a few more off, and we'll get everyone a life-partner... and a new generation of awesomeness!
