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Q: The system sucks in China
before I start this is hard to explaine.please excuse my bad spelling.
My wife is Chinese and we have a 16 month old boy,he was born in Shenzhen.my wife has got Hukou when she came from her home town to work in Shenzhen.The job she was in gave her Hukou.our little boy can not go on to my wifes Huhou as the company she was working for was a small company.my son has a Shenzhen birth certificate.
my son can not get an ID card can not get the free schooling,can not get medical insurance here in Shenzhen.
If he goes back to my wifes home town which is in the country he can get Hukou and he can go to school,but the problem there its very poor and the school is run down,they only speak the local language.he would have to walk 2 hours over hills just to get to school.
Iam from New Zealand but I dont plan on going home any time soon.
unless we buy a house in shenzhen which we dont have the money to do that,then he can get Hukou.
Is anyone else in this situation?what are your thoughts,My wife is from GuiZhou Province.
If you have any questions feel free to ask.and I will do my best to answer them.
Yup. That's the system, unfortunately.
I don't think your wife will have a Houkou for Shenzhen. I suspect she will have a residence permit, which basically allows her to to live and work in SZ.... and pay tax of course.
I think the only thing you can do is go back to Guizhou to get your son his ID and passport. Once you have his ID your wife can go to the local "Office of floating population" in SZ to find out what school he can go to at what cost etc. Once you know the costs you can decide what to do.
The school will not be expensive. It certainly won't cost as much as it would if your son had a foreign passport because then he would have to go to an International school.
I think it was this year that the Government announced all farmers would be able to apply for urban Houkou. But this only applies to the local cities in their home provence I believe.
It would be very difficult to change a Guizhou Houkou to a SZ Houkou. Not impossible, but it would take a lot of time and a lot of money. It would probably cost more than 18 years of school and health fees.
ScotsAlan:
I just checked with someone about school costs. Kindergarden will not be expensive, but primary school will cost about RMB800 a month for a child with non local Houkou.
The biggest problem will be getting him into a school as places are given to local kids first. But your son is still young so maybe the best thing to do is for your wife to start networking in the local area. Get to know the people in the local area who can help. They won't be high up officials, just the people who work in the local population control centers. Or, if you live in a high rise maybe she can get to know the housing committee in your block.
This is not corruption by the way 
. It's just being part of the local community so people will be inclined to help you when you need it.
Hospitals are a different matter. Getting treatment in local "not so good" hospitals" is easy, and not that expensive. Getting him into a good hospital will be expensive.
But hey, I think the only thing really subsidized is the baby jabs. And they are not expensive anyway.
The Hukou system is a ridiculous concoction designed to perpetuate inequality and deny people of basic rights...sorry to hear about your situation RobRocks. Unfortunately millions of Chinese are also discriminated against due to this.
Yeah, they designed that system to keep too many rural folk from flocking to cities. They have to buy apartments which is why you see tons of residential complexes with nobody in them.
I guess they assumed all the farmers would buy apartments in the larger cities, change their hukou and live happily every after. Unfortunately, they seemed to miss the fact that farmers can't afford houses in larger cities...
Or did they? This is done so the real-estate companies and government officials could clean up, good education goes to those that can afford apartments and the poor folk stay as cheap labor.
If I were you, I would change his nationality to yours almost immediately. Find a good job in an international school (they usually allow free tuition or at least a huge discount) and put your boy in that school.
ScotsAlan:
Buying an apartment in a city no longer entitles someone to move their houkou there. At least not the top tier cities.
As far as I am aware, the system was designed to ensure food production. After all, agriculture is very labour intensive in China. So yup, by accident of birth, someone could be tied to the land for life. But are they?
I think, the system is kept as it is now to encourage economic development. If you are the child of a farmer you get points for education, skills and paying tax. So you can move your houkou to a lower tier city and your skills will help that city bring cash in. Alternatively, you could go to a tier one city and do cash in hand jobs and not pay tax. You would still be entitled to the free/subsidized services, but only in your hometown. Because the resources have been allocated according to where your houkou is.
If you move to a tier 1 city you get a residence permit but no Houkou. So, to bring your family up there you need to earn ok money. Nobody is saying you can't live there, all they are doing is trying to prevent the local services from becoming more overloaded than they already are.
I think of it this way. In the west, a small town might have 20k houses. The local Government can budget for services based on average occupancy of the houses, which would normally be one family unit. But in China it does not work like that. If a new factory were to open that paid good wages, the population of the town could treble overnight with people looking for work You would have locals renting out rooms for whole families to live in. The local services would be overwhelmed. Sure, they could build more schools but what if the factory closed down? They would have wasted money on now empty schools.
As it is, people can go work anywhere they want. It's the services that are tied to their hometown. Anyone can get the services anywhere else, it just costs more.
yeah, it sucks here. But I got to our son Czech citizenship and passport as soon as possible. ok, it took me about a year, but it is fine now. The visa hassles, I need go through too, so no matter go there once or twice 
School will be expensive, yes, but check your embassy, they may help. Some countries, with social systems and free public schools, may offer help to find and subsidize your kid school. I know about someone, from France, he got subsidy 60% on tuition fee for his son in international french/chinese kindergarden. Unfortunately, my country is so small and so the numbers of countrymen here, that there is n o czech/chinese school or so 
But I am ready to go back when time of his school comes, if my company don't pay that crazy school fee now he is at local govt run kindergarden, it is ok one, not any cheap mud house
Good luck, definitely try ask your embassy.
Step 1: Create a really bad quality institution.
Step 2: Make it exclusive. "You can't come."
Step 3: Government mandates that everyone must attend said crappy institution.
Step 4: Everyone, even foreigners with access to quality institutions abroad, tear their hair out in frustration because they can't go there - but they must.
Step 5: Artificial scarcity has been created. Media won't forget to advertise how foreigners "want" to attend these bad quality institutions.
Step 6: Once parents finally find a school that allows their child entry, they will not rock the boat by complaining.
Step 7: Child loses creative curiosity; meiguanxi. Child sings songs in praise of history's biggest killer; meiguanxi. Child learns to emulate the rudeness and backward attitude of peers and teachers; meiguanxi. Child adopts a victim-attitude with National Humiliation Education, never accepting personal responsibility for one's own failings, always blaming problems on "evil outside" influence. Meiguanxi...
Step 8: Another amoral drone has been created, displaying only superficial loyalty to one's parents, bullying the weak at every opportunity, and kissing @$$ with every 'strong' person they meet.
Step 9: Child abandons parents in their time of need. However could this have happened? Let's turn to the government that created the problem in the hope they will rescue us.
Step 10: Foreigners finally housetrained: They willingly sing songs in praise of history's biggest killer, and learn to like it!
Alternative step: Homeschooling.
Additional alternative step: Emigration.
coineineagh:
rofl-MAO... a large part of the Chinese domestic economy is basically manufactured scarcity through trade restrictions, confined housing bubble, import bans and other tricks to game the economic system. They've turned ignorance into capital, but surprisingly, this idiom also applies to a large part of service industries worldwide. Plenty of employees around the world are working irrelevant nonsense jobs that could be automated or completely abolished. It's like a game of Monopoly that has already been won but they want to keep playing, so the winners are passing banknotes to the losers to stop them from wanting change (a.k.a. "cultural capitalism"). If I were to make an effort to spread the message to the general population here, I have no doubt that I'd end up dead. Plus, the people would barely understand it, and think I'm a basket case. I'll be damned if I risk my life for this bunch of rude pricks!
Robk:
@coin - Yeah, that is part of the problem. The people that are poor and manipulated are usually also very dumb and stubborn. We all like to put the poor in the light of being the victims but you will find all over the world, that no matter how you try to enlighten them, offer them hand-outs, give them good advice, or point them in the right direction... they prefer having a excuse for playing the victim to justify their poor, meager and lazy lifestyles. Some even get mad and scream "If I can't do it, neither can you... so I don't believe you!"
Some do get out of the cycle but only if they stop having that defeatist attitude.
So yeah, unfortunately... you would most likely be wasting your time trying to educate the masses. The CCP is failing at just teaching them to form a single line... 
The hukou system is evil and belongs in the dark ages.
But the problem here is really that no one is able to tell things up front. Part of your rant is of course the actual situation, but another part is based on the surprise that your wife has a hukou.... but it's useless.
When you go to any institution in China to do something, they will ask for some kind of documentation. Most often hukou or ID will do. But sometimes you'll be asked to present some kind of documentation... but the person asking for it offers no description or suggestions as to how to get it. This then sends you on a sisyphean journey that then ends back in the same office, but with a different pencil pusher that doesn't need the fruits of your hard labor anyway.
Hukou, obviously crowd control tool. But the lack of proper institutions and authorities is so too. It is impossible to do anything. Especially in a big society like China, digital management would be a huge plus, and would actually offer more control. But you'd lose the "running around between offices with documents" part of society, freeing up people to think about things like how high Xi Jinpings (Cheers) pants are riding or if the baozi you are about to munch into is going to kill you right away or in a week. Keep the people busy with stupid tasks.
That's a bad scene, Rob.
Someone mentioned home schooling and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Except for the lack of peers for the little fella. Playmates. His social development can be retarded if he doesn't have anyone to mix/play with.
I would think that having young children in China must be a very difficult situation.
How's his English? Can you and your wife go to NZ until he's done with school?
I dunno... Good luck matey.
coineineagh:
Agreed. Emigraton beats homescholing, because there is no substitute for peers in childhood development. Chinese peers are a very bad influence.
laowaigentleman:
@coin.
Yeah, you'll never be able to take him back to NZ because he'll have learned to yell when he's inside and whine when he doesn't get his way.
coineineagh:
Whining when you don't get your way is a perfectly natural response for a young child with no impulse control, and part of the problem is that adults judge children by adult standards. Getting angry and irritated at a youngster for lacking this ability, shows that the adult is also lacking impulse control him/herself. Peers and parents in China both demonstrate a lack of patience, quick temper and stubborn attitude which children inevitably imitate. One wonders if adults consciously choose this immature attitude just because they want to use others rather than be useful to others... Anyway, even if you're a zen master, you can't prevent your child from becoming impulsive if his peers contradict the example you set...
thanks for all the feed back,money wise we are not ready to go back to NZ,I work my wife stays at home and looks after our boy so he gets alot of Chinese and not much English.
<.
even though I work in a kindergarten,the kindergarten will not give a me a staff discount.(new owners)
I will keep you updated as to what we do
Robk:
Really?
They won't give you a discount?
Perhaps, you should kindly remind them that you are helping them to make a profit and it would be beneficial to both sides if you worked out a deal. Maybe you could do extra demo classes or marketing events and in return they give you a discount or your son free schooling.
Anyway, anything can be negotiated... especially in China.
coineineagh:
Your situation sounds similar to mine, except that your employer has got you whipped. Be assertive, don't believe the nonsense, and soon they'll admit they'd love to have your half-foreign son attend for free. It's great publicity, a sign of approval of their institution from you, all at no cost to them.
A few weeks ago, when someone mentioned why they are happy in China, I raised this very issue, namely education problems. Now somebody is having the exact problem. This is why I plan to return to the US. Even though it means working harder for less disposable income, it is clearly better for any future children.
I'm sorry to hear about your plight. I am from NZ too and I'm living up in Hebei, a place where I would never dream of ever raising a child.
I'm doing accounting papers so that once my girlfriend graduates we can go to NZ. If I didn't try that path I would consider going to Southland and taking up farm labouring of some sort. Masochistic, sure, but so's riding a bus in Shijiazhuang for 3 hours a day.
NZ sure as hell isn't cheap, but its education system is good, the people aren't cash-hungry scumbags, and in spite of the fact that there are so few people, there is plenty of intellectual stimulation and culture. Certainly more than this place with its 5000 years before trading it off for Marx and Mao.
My Aussie friend left Shenzhen for Melbourne because his son had to sing "Wo ai Beijing Tiananmen" in kindy.
Don't raise kids in China, dude. For me, it isn't even on the ticket.
Hi Man, when it comes time to take your kid to go to school from Kindergarten to primary school or above I've got you covered, just PM me. My son is in a primary school that allows me to use his American passport, no crazy fees, Y4500 a semester, he's doing great, not too bad. If you live in Futian a good kindergarten is "Blue Sky Kindergarten".
Now if you wanna get into a Gov school don't worry if they have a seat you can get in and or pay an under the table fee, trust me it works, but if not I can take you to the primary school that goes from Primary to High school.
I've been there and done all that and posted some the same topic years ago. My wife also holds a Company Shenzhen Hukou as well.
ScotsAlan:
I have never an answer more deserving of "answer of the day" than this
Upbeat, and based on fact. With an offer of personal help attached.
This post is what this forum is all about . Real local knowledge that can help people !!
The system in the US sucks also. Country run by lobbyists. Heath Care ha ha. $417 a month with $5750 deductible you can see a doctor once a year for a checkup free of charge then you pay full price. They call it Obama Care. Too bad Obama is not on the same system. Before you reach the $417 x 12 + $5750 deductible if you make $50,000 a year you will be paying 21.5% of your income for health Care. The whole system is out of control. Run by hospitals, doctors, drug manufacturers etc. To top it off if you do not submit to this extortion you have you pay a fine of $600 for the first offense. Then it goes out of sight.
Stiggs:
I'm not really understanding your.... 'logic' .. here Franck.
Someone from New Zealand, married to a Chinese woman with a baby born in China has a problem getting their child into a school because of the Chinese Hukou system.
Just how is that related to healthcare in the United States? 
I agree, the healthcare system in America could use an overhaul but are you saying that because that system sucks they are somehow giving permission to China to also keep a crap system in place? If so I think you're looking up to America for guidance waaaay to much.
It's just one country among many others Franck, not some kind of world authority, or model for how the rest of the world is run or should be run.
dont know if this will help you, but in the major cities there is always an exclusive private school, kindergarten to 12th grade that hires foreign teachers, in jinan, jinan foreign language school, if i teach there, salary is average, but you get tuition for your kid at 500 rmb a month, because its got government elite's little children there, you can teach on a spouse visa with no trouble and your kid gets a good school.
the system here is the top 200 kids on entrance test get a free education and the other 800 in the class have to pay, 1000 kids per grade, per year.
probably have a similiar school in your city, education elites copy each others foolish ideas and policies like crazy copy machines on steroids especially if they think it works.
I am just trying to alert you to the fact that the good old USA is not so great after all. Poor people get heath care for free at the expense of the middle class having to pay 21.5% of their income and get nothing for it. You get fined if you do not contribute to this ridiculous system. No other country would put up with such a system. The voters are just plain stupid.
Lord_hanson:
free health care for the poor = BAD military grade weapons available for all = GOOD You are a numpty. Many Americans talk about being good Christians yet they won't even help their fellow countrymen who have fallen on hard times.
mattsm84:
I'm in the American middle class and I don't pay 21% of my income for nothing. My wife and I (we're in our late 20s) pay about 9%, we get to see any doctor we like, have low co-pays, and the hospitals in our area are great. Given my druthers I would prefer a single payer system, but that's a tough sell in a lot of municipalities that are over burdened with government pensioners so I get why we haven't got it. We still might. The ACA, like DADT, is designed to be a stepping stone to something better down the road, that's just how American progressivism works.
mattsm84:
@ Hanson
What if I told you that much of that military spending on hardware isn't really about satisfying any need for hardware, but instead about supporting American manufacturing?
http://www.businessinsider.com/congress-forcing-the-army-to-make-tanks-2012-10
Shining_brow:
Proving once and for all that there are only 2 countries in the world - China and America... Nowhere else exists that is worth commenting on, and especially not for comparing....
Stiggs:
Yeah I get that the U.S health system has its issues... I'm sure plenty of other countries also have crap health systems.
I still don't see how that's relevant to this topic though.OP wants to educate his child in China, not go to the States for an operation or something.
mattsm84:
Hey man, I would love it if if criticisms of China were met with criticisms of Australia. Posts about air pollution could then devolve into discussions on poisonous animals. Or posts about character defects in specific Chinese people could have a chance lead to conversations about tall poppy syndrome. Or conversations comparing the habits of Japanese people to Chinese people could reflexively be turned to how well behaved the Kiwis seem to be.
Franck3:
mattsm84 the reason you do not pay between 10% and 21% is because you make less than $65,000 a year
Thank you for reminding me why we decided to move to the west before having children.
