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Q: technological pride and psychology
CHINA doesn't have many meaningful inventions to boast: the abacus, the wheelbarrow, fireworks…
TCM…?
:… (thinking)
and chopsticks?
Anyway, that's just how history went down. The West has most of the inventions to their name, and many other countries have just a few things.
They are human achievements of course, but their country of origin leaves a lasting impression on everyone in the world.
China can't claim to have been a part of any technological golden age. They've had power and prosperity at times, but they never really lead the world in advancements.
QUESTION: Does the lack of a technological heritage affect the people in CHINA?
I believe it does. Much like my countries' heritage is a source of pride (and made us cultivate creativity in our society), I believe Chinese have chosen to focus on that which they have achieved historically (wealth, prosperity and power), while neglecting ingenuity and research. It might even explain why theyfocus so heavily on copying the West: Does CHINA believe itself incapable of scientific advancement?
I discussed this with a historian some time ago. He said that despite a lot of things where first made in China it didn't really matter because few of their inventions ended up being used commonly. Thus the impact on China, or the world was minimal despite "being first". And so the achievement of being first, isn't as great because in the end it didn't result in much.
Also, in China, it is very easy to brute force innovation due to the number of people. For every brilliant, creative scientist in a Western country, China can throw tens, or even hundreds of poor-to-mediocore scientists an lab assistants at the problem until it goes away.
coineineagh:
yeah, Japan also has a reputation of being ingenious at innovation (combining existing inventions), but not having anything truly new to put to their name. Chinese research assistants are popular due to their willingness to do all the repetitive testing. but the greatest leaps in human knowledge were achieved in the West between the renaissance and WWII.
oh: did they invent paper, or were they just good at making it?
Shining_brow:
Paper is probably a really good subject... it was invented and spread through various parts of the world around the same time... Worth comparing how places have developed since then.
fada:
Is papyrus, papyrus or paper? I would class them as different, i know paper as paper and papyrus as papyrus
My dad is professor of biochemistry at a leading Scottish university. I had thought that not much in the way of scientific literature comes out of China. he told me this was rubbish(garbage). In his field, protein crystallography, he told me that China dominates this particular subject, and that the research that they do in some other biology subjects is first class. i doubt they're thinking about how much China has contributed in the past to this field. They are now working hard to make certain that they are involved in its future.
I think you are underplaying the importance of Chinese history on the world and its impact on the world. I cannot be bothered to look it up but I'll bet they have had some pretty good inventions.
coineineagh:
actually, i based my assumption on an old ECC article about Chinese inventions. it was something about wheelbarrow "road" infrastructure, and linked to a list of China's greatest inventions. with the abacus and fireworks being among the half-dozen greatest inventions, it didn't look too impressive. as for China's impact on world hisory, it's probably dwarfed by the Mongols alone. Even hot pot is Mongol cuisine. is there something unique about protein crystallography that makes it excellent for rote-learners, such as lots of repetitive man-hours? i studied biology myself, and though i'm aware of Chinese being frequent co-authors, there wasn't any interest from Chinese students in such unprofitable studies. i did get a chuckle from a Chengdu graduate who visited Amsterdam to tell us that crocodiles were successfully *bored* in captivity.
ScotsAlan:
My ex wife was a name in developing the Westing blottting technique. Your dad has probably seen her papers. Do we gain face for that :)
ScotsAlan:
Sorry, westin blotting is liquid chromatography. So they probably dont know each other. But I give you an upvote cos your dad is clever :) lots of face :)
dokken:
Actually he maybe said they're very active, perhaps didn't use the word dominant.
U mean western blotting scots. That's pretty cool I prolly read gee papers at uni. My dad is clever in a narrow field. He s average overall like most academia. Never trusted or liked so called academics in most countries
coineineagh:
I performed Western and Southern blotting on DNA strands during an internship. I didn't really understand the chemistry behind it. It's probably all quite clever and complex. All I can recall, is that the size of the dyed strands determined how far into the gel the electric current would make them migrate.
That's where the all 'copying, remodeling and disregarding inventor's rights' in China comes from, IMO.
Recent drive/press on 'respecting authorization rights' in China must be huge.
I have booklet with different Chinese foods translated to English, courtesy of first FT from Ozz I met in Tangshan in 2009. Chinese teacher asked me, if I could show her the booklet.
I told her, she can dismantle pins, and photocopy the whole thing.
She asked me, if such copying isn't prohibited, because of the authorization rights.
Majority of Chinese don't really understand importancy of 'copy rights' thingy, or they 'understand' it as 'what's a big deal'.
For those interested, please find a list of Chinese inventions at:
coineineagh:
the list appears impressive, but a lot of these inventions are more like discoveries and social constructs. many of them were also developed simultaneously in different parts of the world. banknotes is a good example. a nicely windowdressed list, but the substance is meager.
I discussed this with a historian some time ago. He said that despite a lot of things where first made in China it didn't really matter because few of their inventions ended up being used commonly. Thus the impact on China, or the world was minimal despite "being first". And so the achievement of being first, isn't as great because in the end it didn't result in much.
Also, in China, it is very easy to brute force innovation due to the number of people. For every brilliant, creative scientist in a Western country, China can throw tens, or even hundreds of poor-to-mediocore scientists an lab assistants at the problem until it goes away.
coineineagh:
yeah, Japan also has a reputation of being ingenious at innovation (combining existing inventions), but not having anything truly new to put to their name. Chinese research assistants are popular due to their willingness to do all the repetitive testing. but the greatest leaps in human knowledge were achieved in the West between the renaissance and WWII.
Happy expat put the wiki list of Chinese inventions in a previous post.
It's not a patch on the Scottish invention list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries
And Scotland is a tiny nation compared to China.
Does CHINA believe itself incapable of scientific advancement?
I think it believes it is capable, but at the same time it recognizes that the system and the culture is not a fertile breeding ground for innovation. It tries to address this through education, but even this is measured with Chinese characteristics.
A few years back, China declared it wanted engineers. So they trained millions of engineers. And a lot of them are very good. Very very good. But the problem is, they are considered failures if they remain as engineers. Their engineering qualification is a stepping stone to becoming a manager. And that in turn is a stepping stone to starting their own company.
And once they are promoted, they just pay someone else to have the ideas. This could be part of the issue, but I think it goes deeper.
I think the real issue is this "filial piety" thing. I think it holds people back from "thinking out the box". Filial piety instills a feeling within people that their elders are always wiser. So they are less likely to contradict elder people giving traditional direction. And as they themselves grow older, they take over the role of the elder, and administer traditional direction.
Innovation needs people to break the boundaries. Innovators need to be able to face ridicule, and failure. I think the culture here does not equip people to do that.
The west has a proud tradition of mad scientists. Those strange people coming out with whacky ideas. But we don't knock them. We respect them. If anything, we are slightly in awe of them.
But we understand, that for every good innovation, there are tens of thousands of failed ones. I think our mad scientist concept allows massive leaway for people to fail, fail again, and keep failing..... because one day it will work. And it does.
But filial piety? Failure is not an option. Failure brings shame upon your traditional style elders.
So yeah, couple of ideas there. Basically, fear of failure. Especially failure for trying to do something different. And the fear of failure comes from filial piety.
That's my thoughts on it.
ScotsAlan:
More thoughts.
How could I be so stupid to have not thought of this?
Anticipation. Or lack of. That is, lack of forward thinking. Cause and effect. "If I do this, that will happen". "That", being in the future, no matter how immediate.
NOOOOOOOOOOO
It does not happen here. I see examples every moment that I am in the madness.
Western thinking.... " If I do this, then do that, then either this or that, and if that works maybe do this, maybe even that, it might work"
Chinese Cultural thinking " If I step onto this road without looking?..."
coineineagh:
age often brings not just wisdom, but bitterness and tunnel-vision. you probably have a good observation there. filial piety may also be the underlying factor for so much disfunctionality. i see children thrown into the deep end of hate, abuse and neglect straight from birth. for people who claim to follow teaching of "zen balance", it all seems quite unbalanced.
ScotsAlan:
My point about the filial piety is really about how it is a cycle that cant be broken. The young become old, and expect the same respect they had to give. It's a sort of age driven apprenticeship, not skill based.
Why innovate to gain respect, when old age gives it to you anyway, without effort or risk of failure.
coineineagh:
blast furnaces were later developed independently in different places, including the americas. gunpowder would be called firework powder if it hadn't made it to the west.
ScotsAlan:
The blast furnace article totally illusttrates Coins point very well. The Chinese never improved on the original idea. It survived all the way to the great leap forward with no development. Mao thought the ancient back yard furnace technology would propel China into an industrialised society. But it was iron age technology. Scotland got a mention in that article a few times, me proud of that. I used to work in the steel industry by the way :)
