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Q: Terminated for illegitimate reason

My school told me they terminated my contract because I was "spreading rumors" about our program. I  hired a lawyer. The foreign expert bureau has guanxi with my school, they won't force my school to give release documents.  Is there a government website my lawyer can show them and threaten them with?

6 years 42 weeks ago in  Visa & Legalities - China

 
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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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Here's the long version of the story:

 

Hi, I worked for Rutgers University Newark at Northeast Normal University in Changchun, Jilin from August 2016 until April 5th. On April 5th, I was called into a meeting with my boss who told me that they terminated my contract based on "rumors and confusion" that I had created with our students. Our program is a joint program with a lot of intricate details, I did my best to help students, Rutgers University never argued that, and I received the best student feedback score on evaluations about the 15 teachers who work here. I can prove that. On April 5th, I was offered a new contract (because Northeast Normal couldn't legally terminate me for that reason and knew I was a good teacher, but they were angry with me because I was explaining honest issues with our program). The new contract was the same except cutting my pay by 26%. They said they would give me 2 days to decide. I said I wanted more time. In the meantime, I went to the foreign experts bureau and explained the situation to them. They have powerful guanxi with Northeast Normal and immediately called them on their private cell phone after talking to me for 30 minutes. I never rejected the new contract offer, but Northeast Normal claims that I did since I didn't give an answer within 2 days. Northeast Normal sent me 2 more "official termination" notices that would just emails, nothing legal, nothing from the government. I immediately asked for my release letter, letter of recommendation, salary owed, and contract breach payment. I was refused all of them. Northeast Normal said they would only give them to me if I signed that "end of contract" mutual consent form. I refused, because they claim to have terminated me. I then paid for a local lawyer who filed a demand for salary payment and breach of contract payment from them or else we would go to court. They refused and chose court. I'm now filing to go to court. I also asked for my foreign experts permit with they hold. They refuse to give it to me claiming that they are cancelling it. But they've never sent me proof of that. My lawyer went to the foreign experts bureau June 2nd and told them I want my release documents (again). They claim the documents can't be given, and my owed salary can't be paid unless I sign the end of contract agreement. So I'm going to court still. I still live at the apartment provided by Northeast Normal although they've threatened to evict me, I don't believe they legally can. Any advice on what to do to prepare for the court date? I'm demanding my release letter, cancelation of FEC, recommendation letter, full months salary ( I worked for over 6 months), and salary breach payment. 

joerg81:

i had a veeeery similar story with my employer. now 10 - months later - i received the first judgement from the court... everything you are asking for should be provided. but i lost 10 months of my life without any compensation..

6 years 41 weeks ago
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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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"Any advice on what to do to prepare"

 

Money. Patience.

 

Yourself - for losing.

 

If they've got such guanxi that SAFEA is ringing the school within minutes of talking to you, they'll probably have enough guanxi to get their way in court.

 

Either that, or to have you beaten up...

 

As I'm sure you know by now - NEU is one of the higher ranking universities in China... and you don't get to the top by being good (stick the the adage of 'the higher up you want to go, the more corrupt you have to be").

 

Also prepare yourself for a whole stack of grief in other areas of your life... such as knocks on the door. Given that you're living in NEU property, expect you may get thrown out (perhaps literally).

 

If you haven't already, tell your embassy!

 

Also, If they are legitimately in collaboration with a US university, keep them in the loop of EVERYTHING. And, find local news outlets in Newark, and prepare them a story such as "This is how the Chinese partner schools treat their FTs"

retiredinchina:

A better school with a good relationship could make you an offer and if they want you, they put pressure on the other school with guanxi for the release of your letter. I would also recommend leaving the province or at least that city for employment. There is also a private training school there called "bai dai" something else in the name, set up by a chinese national from Canada or so I have been told. Bite the bullet and work for them on 6 month contract if they can get your release letter and then go for greener pastures in another city. They probably pay better than the university anyway. The training school loves to get someone already here and avoid all the paperwork bullshit and plane reimbursements, your ability is of no concern to them at all, just the money issue.

6 years 42 weeks ago
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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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There's nothing you can really do man, I'm telling you that because I don't wanna see you waste your time, money and effort as a friend. Best to pay them for your release letter or ask nicely again. Only 1% of the time foreigners will win this game. 

 

Your goal now should only be the release letter. Without it you can't get hired, if you can get a new passport number in a new passport there is a chance as I've seen with other friends who tried this method. 

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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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It's either 'they have powerful guanxi' or 'they can prove your fault/Contract disrespect'.

 

I lean toward latter ...

 

What is any of your business to explaining 'honest issues with our program' to anybody?

 

None, if you were hired as an English (I assume!) teacher! 

 

 

Englteachted:

What is any of your business to explaining 'honest issues with our program' to anybody?

 

 

 

 

Exactly

6 years 42 weeks ago
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icnif77:

My 'lawyer' is better surprise than OP's ... broken heart

6 years 42 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I understand it - cos I was in that situation.

 

Co-op program with overseas university. But, most of the student's English sucked arse, and there was NO chance they'd be able to pass in the other country..

 

THAT"S being honest about the program, that the local admin don't want to talk about!

6 years 42 weeks ago
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icnif77:

You can't discuss about that with students, i.e. payees of the program! You can push them to study more with ' ... you won't pass admission with such English knowledge ...'.

If I have such an idea, I always try to talk with rep. on 'how I think it would be better ....' and then I let them make changes if they want. It's just my opinion and nothing else.

Discussing faulty program with students is 'notion of war' against the School. Of course, they'll get rid of you and no Gov. agency will step in for help.

Let's wait if OP will tell us more about that discussion and with whom he had it.

6 years 42 weeks ago
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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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Write to the local paper in New Jersey explaining the situation.  The hard truth is that there's probably not too much you can do in China about it but it might prove to be a nice public interest story in a local paper that may shame Rutgers into some kind of action.  It's a long shot but it might be worth a punt.

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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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The best you can do at this point is follow Shining's advice and give them a PR nightmare in the U.S. with any affiliations they may have.

ironman510:

Why do very few people understand the power and need of a release letter in China? Its a get out of jail card. 

6 years 42 weeks ago
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Zethe:

Indeed, and there are many methods one can use to make sure they get a release letter...but IMO if they haven't figured out one of the methods, all they have to do is make a quick search on here on other forums.

6 years 42 weeks ago
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icnif77:

You're 'parading' again! The purpose of posting here is either to tell what you know/show your way or STFU!

 

Insert browser...? I have 'Opera' and 'Safari' both running and there's is nothing there on how to get RL (earlier)!

 

Issuance of RL is 'School's/employer's confirmation party B doesn't owe anything to School and can seek another employment ...'

My case:

Owner of the School's statement: 'You will get RL after you'll return School's apartment in order, i.e. 'no damage'.

 

Sensible owner's reply and I don't dispute it!

The problem is potential new RP sponsors are asking me for the RL!  That's what I call it 'retarded'.

 

Now tell me, please which browser is better to get RL out of my boss earlier?

6 years 42 weeks ago
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Zethe:

Well icniff, I have already made posts on 3 ESL sites, Reddit, and this website as well.
Funnily enough, half intelligent "FTs" have found my posts and thanked me for the info while living in China, so it must be an intelligence problem or lack of effort.

I very clearly stated how I solved the problem with my Chinese boss who also claimed the same "guanxi" multiple times on threads and created my own thread.

The rest is up to a simple search.



I just searched "Chinese job release letter template" along with a Chinese translation (straight form bing translate) and holy crap there it is!
So instead of typing "RL" like a retard, maybe use actual keywords that work! Or search my reddit and find ample examples there!
Wow, so hard man, let's blame someone instead of using our fingers!

6 years 42 weeks ago
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icnif77:

It isn't Q about 'template' but 'timing of getting a RL'!

 

After 8 years in China I certainly must have a way to get RL template or any template, butT .... 'Thank you, Fred!' surprise for telling me I can get RL template out of the Internet.

 

"Indeed, and there are many methods one can use to make sure they get a release letter"

 

'Using of search engine' is what you call 'method'?

'The Flintstones' all the way! Yaa-baa-daba-doo!

6 years 42 weeks ago
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Zethe:

Lol, yeah you're an imbecile, but we all know that.. I have no idea why you're on here trying to ask me the details when you already know.

Let me spell it out.
1.You use the internet and search "template", then print it out.
Again, USE THE INTERNET to search "what paperwork do I need to transfer jobs" .....and BOOM you instantly find plenty of posts and websites stating that it is the LAW they must give the paperwork REGARDLESS of guanxi or if you're ever even going to work in China again.

2.Slap it on their desk.
3.Tell them this is what I need so they have no way to weasel around, play dumb, or .give you some other BS paperwork (as they often try to do)



4. So let me remind you again: USE THE INTERNET to find your local SAFEA numbers.

5. Call SAFEA then USE THE INTERNET to open your email and send the PROOF of boss breaking the contract/firing you.


6. Have them fill out the paper you gave them and stamp it.
7. Profit.
Holy crap, look at that, I used the INTERNET to do ALL of the things necessary for getting a RL!

Do you have any dumbass questions, ICNIF?

Remember, I did this same exact thing after you gave me the same advice I'm giving: Call SAFEA and use the internet to search up the info.

6 years 42 weeks ago
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icnif77:

Woow Fred, thanks for the guidance. 

 

What is 'imbecile'?

 

Your first Q on this Board:

 

http://answers.echinacities.com/question/boss-terminating-contract-refuses-give-letter-releaseoptions-new-visa-instead-renewal

 

and have a look who replied to you first with very useful advice. 

Now, after 20 of your Qs on this Board you should learn much about 'how to .... do anything in China' and you are ready to coach me about what you learned out of my replies.

That isn't 'imbecile' Fred, is it? Yaa-baa ..., Fred!

6 years 42 weeks ago
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Zethe:

Funnily enough, you haven't posted a single useful thing on this thread, yet here I am with a step by step process on what to do.


You're here trying to insult me for telling people to USE THE INTERNET which....
Ironically is the same thing you told me to do.

In case you forgot, I did the calls, gathering Chinese translators, and information gathering on my own, AFTER you gave the SAME ADVICE I found on the internet!

If you went back and read the original question I posted, I ALREADY KNEW about a Letter of Release before you even posted your advice on what paperwork I needed...thanks Captain Obvious!

Guess how I already knew??? Wait for it...THE INTERNET.

In case you forgot, read my LAST COMMENT on your advice. I was ready to give up...until I found an alternate method VIA SEARCHING THE INTERNET (which I have posted here). Who helped who now?

Why not copy paste the advice you put on my original post instead of taking a giant dump on this one?

Or better yet, why not copy paste MY advice, since it gives a more tangible answer on how to deal with the boss?

6 years 42 weeks ago
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Zethe:

Furthermore, if you can't read between the lines..that's your own fault for lacking insight.
"There are indeed many ways to acquire a RL"
I just can't say them ALL here, I can only drop hints. So hey, teamwork! You provide copy paste info from the internet, and I'll provide proven methods to make it work!

6 years 42 weeks ago
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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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If they cancel your FEC they have to issue the release letter...I agree from how you put it, they seem a bit to want to make it appear you quit to avoid any liability. If they have something..even "face" to gain from that distinction then stand your ground...Don't let anyone coerce you out of what you are entitled to..but fired is fired...that is different...They wouldn't dare try to "beat" you up because they  d lose more than they win in terms of violence.

Contacting Rutgers is a good idea..Rutgers pulls their name from the program..they lose..Rutgers will only take action though if they get numerous complaints...You can bet the UNI knows that also in terms of their reputation....but your job there is done and plan on an exit...You never get fired with consent.

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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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Is it me or are you saying 2 different thing? Are they not renewing your contract ? They do not have to renew your contract and number 2 if they terminate your contract that means they canceled it before the end, why would you hire a lawyer for a uni position?

First off I think your story is BS, schools don't fire teachers mid semester unless they absolutely must. 

Sean is right which adds more the fact that your story is bogus. I worked at a school that actually had guanxi with the FEB and that meant nothing because ....

Your story doesn't add up. 

Admin, fuck off

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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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Bottom line is they decided they didn't want you there anymore, for whatever reason. (They will make one up)  If they don't want you there, then your done. You can spend all that time and effort on the slight chance you might get something. In the end you still won't be working there. Nor maybe anywhere else in China if that guanxi is as powerful s you say it is (BTW:How do you know that?). So just go get a new job. Chalk it up as experience.

indecision

icnif77:

How do you know about 'guanxi'?

 

" 'cause it isn't my fault, so Uni's has to have powerful quanxi ... , and that is the only reason SAFEA won't help me! "

 

wink

6 years 42 weeks ago
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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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I am very sorry for the hardship you're going through right now. I would encourage you to have patience as already Shinning told you and be ready for whatever the outcome of your endeavor might be, with peace and fulfillment that you have done what you ought to, that is going to sue the school. 

 

My two cents anyway to add to are regarding the apartment. They will evict you anyway. Get out of there before they do so you can protect yourself from the humiliation and the emotional side effects that come afterwards. Pay for a few month rent and move in the very day you meet the new landlord. Make sure it happens asap so you can shield up from any additional emotional damage you might go through. Reduce any chance the school may inflict on your courage and determination through the harassment and risks to see you in the streets. You will have to fight too much and get distracted from your goal. 

 

Find an apartment tonight, call tomorrow, and pay for it. Get out of that place before they can evict you. That will be part of your success in your endeavor. 

 

I hope you will get that justice you look for. Whether you win or not, , be sure that you have done the right thing to do. 

 

 

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I would put this down to experience and move on.

 

Honestly mate, you're not going to win any legal fight with them, but if you do choose to take it to the courts you will need to get another employer who can get you legal visa wise first. You can't stick around and go through the legal process without a visa and you can be sure the Uni knows that.

 

And find some new accommodation fast because I'm pretty sure the Uni can evict you from the apartment if they want to. Better to leave with some sort of plan than to be literally thrown out with your stuff in a pile on the street. Who will the police listen to if they're called to throw you out?

joerg81:

i won. same situation! but it wasn't worth it.

6 years 41 weeks ago
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The problem I see with these kind of posts being critical of China for "this or that"....the reader is only getting one side of the story (usually the foreigner's side). As a result, it is hard to truly understand the whole story and all the bits and pieces that led to the problem. Granted, this poster gave many of the details, but they are still his/her position of the details. A jaded employee will always try to justify their cause and make the employer the villian. Knowing hos many foreigner's are in regards to their opinion of China's regulations and/or Chinese people, I suspect that there is more to this story than just the one sided complaint. We can not "westernize" chinese problems and try to solve them with western thinking. When we do try to look at difficultues through western eyes and thinking, it seldom works out in our favor. I do hope this person can find some peace after this situation resolves itself.

seansarto:

If they are Chinese problems, it would make sense to consider solutions that are not a part of the problem...because you are only making things  worse then 

6 years 42 weeks ago
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Shining_brow:

I agree.. a little.

 

Firstly, the university is in co-op with an American university, and the students are supposed to go to the US. Thus, finding 'western' solutions does actually make some sense.

 

Secondly - Chinese business people (such as school 'leaders') are corrupt arseholes, who will do anything (both legal, and preferably, illegal) to keep their position and money.

6 years 42 weeks ago
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Shifu

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You can go to court and have good chances, but I can explain you how it actually works...

I have been to court in china and I won (and lost alot money at the same time).

First thing: courts are literally free of charge (10 RMB) what ruins you are the lawyers, they will charge you for every round. Problem in China is that even if you win, the opposing side does not need to pay your lawyer.

 

You will start at the labor court. (Its more like a bargaining court)

They have literally no authority at all and don't give a shit. Mostly they have guanxi and will rule against you no matter what.

You do not have to accept their judgement as it is not enforced by law.

If you dont accept it, you will go to the next instance which is the local district court.

This will be more like a real court and the judgement is binding. It is less likely that guanxi will influence their decisions.

If you still feel something wrong here, you can choose to not accept their judgment, then it will go to the mid level province court.

Rarely they will revise the low level court decision unless it is very clear that something was wrong there.

 

I guess you will never end up with this at a high court though.

 

apart from what people are saying, the courts are more or less pretty fair and everything is recorded.

 

BUT the rule of law about compensation etc. is a bit iffy. It is judged according to the local average salary and even a 3 month compensation might just be 10000 RMB.

 

The lawyer might charge you for 100000 RMB for the 3 rounds.

joerg81:

similar experience. first started with labor arbitration. u don't need a lawyer but itvis recommended! i am sure in my case there was guanxi involved at the court too.

6 years 41 weeks ago
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Something that may be helpful to know...

 

Rutgers has associations with both Jilin University and NEU. The NEU program is relatively new (since only 2014), whereas the JU co-op has been going on since 2009. JU has 3 programs, while NEU only has 1. But, the NEU has a full program with Newark in Business Studies... the others look less formal (ie, degree bearing).

 

Meaning - NEU's program is pretty new, and they may not want the waves you could cause of you went public.

 

RU also has a LOT of other co-op programs around the rest of the country.... Again, something NEU might not want to risk losing given that RU has other options.

 

I suspect it's unlikely that this will be NEU's first issue that RU has had to deal with...

 

(if you really wanted to be a bastard about this, take some photos of yourself (or even someone else!) with lots of injuries (bruises, bloodied, etc), and send that to a Newark newspaper, saying "this is what the local uni did to keep me quiet").

icnif77:

You are liable for the last paragraph! 

 

Set 'edit' in motion ... surprise

6 years 42 weeks ago
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Zethe:

:0

Beating the masters at their own game I see.

6 years 42 weeks ago
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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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First up.... Genuine question.... why hire a lawyer?

 

Why not contact the CFTU?

 

Consider this.

 

If you are a top class teacher, have rich backers, you might somehow open a school chain, and make $60k a month from each branch. Lots of money.

 

If you work at a genuine international school, you will be paid about 30-40k, you will have a route to progress to other countries/branches etc.

 

You employed a lawyer before you found SAFEA. You found this website, and did not find SAFEA.

 

I am sure you are a lovely person. I am sure you are a fantastic person. A fantastic teacher.But come on... this is China. Nobody engages a solicitor in China. Fuck me.... you might as just well hand your house over to them.

 

Sniff CFTU.

 

 

icnif77:

I am with 'tits' on this one. Admin!

6 years 42 weeks ago
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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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All in all your just another brick in the wall...

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6 years 42 weeks ago
 
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keep us updated on how things are going please!

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6 years 41 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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just keep throwing money down a toilet get another lawyer its china

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6 years 40 weeks ago
 
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Answer of the DayMORE >>
A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77