Stiggs:

"And he was TAUGHT this stuff hate from his RADICAL parents! "

The guy was ranting about gays, shot up a gay nightclub and it's sounding like this was an anti gay thing. I don't know who taught him that hate stuff but blaming Islam for that is a bit rich when there are all sorts of Christian groups spreading the same anti gay hatred.

diverdude1:

stiggs,,,, I also am pro gun control, in the sense that I mean I don't think there should be Any guns on Earth anymore.  We seem to be beyond the days of going out and hunting for our food with them. They just seem to be used for shooting/murdering people.  Weird thing is though if there were no firearms, the sick, hateful-minded haters would find another way to murder people,,, like flying giant aircraft full of combustible liquid into buildings full of innocent people, or making those nitrate bombs like that crazy guy did in Oklahoma City.  I understand being angry and even disliking people momentarily, but thank goodness I haven't had it in my heart to really hate anyone,,, let alone to the point of viciously murdering people over it.

God rest their souls ~

cub:

a dangerous psyco? ok whom determines whom is crazy? how can they tell when/if a person is loony? whom defines the definition? Islam and muslim are entertwined as a religion go read the quran ok? lying converting non muslims by the pen first then the sword by force is taught in the quran When has a christian cut off heads stoned women lately? the quran teaches this it is hate its evil! As for the gays being targeted including gays the quran says to convert al non mulims we are infidels or u are a slave to them or u are killed! Right in front of u black white and thier actions so dont deny this! What if a hundred armed citizens at this club was allowed a concealed carry not a ''gun free'' zone aka a shooting gallery? I don't think this scum would had got as far as he did! What about that guy that was arrested in Hollywood? didn't he have guns AND explosives?! So where did he get these explosives? isn't explosives illegal? What?, did he get these explosives from a gun shop or a gun show using the imaginary ''loophole'' liberals like to conjure up? See nobody will allow concealed carry in a place like this it never has been tried NO extra gun law hat is never enforced would had prevented this from hapening No ''automatic ' gun was used either so if u believe this crock from the left liberal anti gun media then u will believe all thier other lies also So he bought a gun legally so what? To read his mind what he wanted to do with the gun tell me who can do that? MORE gun laws are NOT the answer and wont work besides MORE people die each day from other weapons like fists ropes knives booze drugs poison hammers then guns look it up! And no, suicide isnt counted either Disarming the pulic is what hitler did what the democrats and the UN wants just read agenda 21 get educated! How do u get guns away from criminals who get their guns from the black market? Do u think criminals follow any anti gun laws? So take away all guns from honest law abiding citizens then they are disarmed sitting targets cant defend theirselves! way to go!

retiredinchina:

The Christians are a little more moderate on their views about being gay, at least in this century anyway, in Arab and Muslim countries it can be the death penalty.  The political correct have let these people in, it's like my question on topless in secular Europe to piss off the Seventh century thinking of Muslims. This is throwing it in their face and here comes the backlash. Every gay club in Europe and America is now a target and this will only get worse. Letting people immigrate into countries that are more open minded and liberal in thinking will change the group over generations, but how many will suffer in the transition of this sociological multiculturalism experiment, no worries the elite want have to suffer and they know what is best for us lowly serfs. I remember the former president of Iran giving a speech at an Ivy League School full of elite liberal do gooder's that are the future "I know what's best for you" crowd of future politicians, Someone asked him about homosexuals and he said there are no gay people in Iran, and the whole audience laughed at him. who is laughing now in Orlando?, Of course this is the same crazy guy who believes that Israel sent rats swimming to his country to inflict diseases. These are the mentors for the immigrants the west is letting in their countries, but lets be political correct like the Chinese and ignore the facts and history.

Shining_brow:

Oh... my ... gods....!!!!

Firstly - the greatest trick the Devil pulled off is making people believe god actually exists!

Secondly - people should go and check out Florida's gun laws! Concealed carry is LEGAL there! (granted, not in areas where alcohol is consumed - so one could argue that. However, it seems a pretty logical qualifier). So, no bitching about gun laws and how they could have defended themselves if people had more access to guns!

Thirdly - I doubt the IS claims - except as an afterthought. Did the guy really call 911 and say he was part of IS? Possibly. Was he always a part of IS? Unlikely! I can imagine that when that final straw broke, and he decided to do this shooting, he then said he was part of IS. And they aren't going to say no to anything...

"Islam and muslim are entertwined as a religion"

Now you're just stating you['re uneducated! One is the religion, the other is the adjective describing a practitioner of that religion....!

"No ''automatic ' gun was used either" - Wow cub - please show me your information source! I haven't read that anywhere. Perhaps you were there at the time and saw it!

Now you're just stating you['re uneducated! One is the religion, the other is the adjective describing a practitioner of that religion....!

RiC - FFS - 'Free the Nipple" is NOT related to Muslim attitudes, but based upon 'western' ideas of women and sexualisation of body parts that's been in our social media for DECADES!!! http://freethenipple.com/why-free-the-nipple/

The description of this guy is NOT 'Muslim', but 'social outcast in America'. Going off on the religion tangent is silly!

But, unfortunately, what RiC said about gay clubs now becoming targets is probably true :(

Stiggs:

@Cub    Fair questions, so ....

-  Who determines who is crazy? Don't know but his ex wife said he beat her and had some issues there. Maybe if someone thought to ask her?

-  Yes I know they stone people to death etc in other countries. I agree, they're batshit crazy in some places. My point was only that the same anti gay hate is preached by SOME in both Islam and Christianity.

- If there were a hundred armed citizens at the club I think the mayhem may have been worse. A hundred drunk, scared people panicking and shooting into a crowded, dimly lit room is never going to end well.

- I don't know if his rifle was semi auto or full auto, don't see how it matters, the end result was still horrific.

True, he could have gone in there and killed a few people with a knife or poison or  something, but instead he was easily able to buy a weapon designed solely for killing people, not hunting, and he was able to kill a lot more people with it. Why does someone need something like that? If they do want to buy one shouldn't they at least be asked why they want it?

- I have no problem with people owning guns, I have hunting rifles myself. I just don't think it should be so easy for almost anyone to go and buy them.

retiredinchina:

http://He was a body builder and a security guard, a religious man who attended the local mosque and wanted to become a police officer.

retiredinchina:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/1387874/15-girls-die-as-zealots-drive-them-into-blaze.html

These are the nuts coming to Europe and America, you can talk about bad christians, gun nut conservatives, the crusades, people can bring up Hitler, but nobody in Europe or America is this damn crazy. Moral relativism from the left is not working for this and the back lash is Trump, sadly this is going to get much worse before it ever gets better.

retiredinchina:

http://Law enforcement officials say Mateen, a 29-year-old U.S. citizen who was the son of Afghan immigrants, carried an AR-15 style assault rifle and a handgun when he killed 50 people and wounded 53 at a gay nightclub in Orlando. He also had an unidentified device, said Orlando Police Chief John Mina. The AR-15 was developed from the U.S. military's M-16 rifle, used in the Vietnam War in the 1960s. Unlike the military version, the AR-15 is not fully automatic, meaning users must pull the trigger each time they want to fire a shot. Like the military version, many AR-15s combine light weight with a relatively modest recoil.

cub:

shining, who said anything about satan and or God? U did! yes florida has concealeed carry but did this club allow this? OR was this a ''gun free' zone? go check on this ok? Not all businesses allow CC if they choose not to! And Stiggs u ASSUME ALL were drunk at this party again your assumption! If these people were so drunk or wasted then why did most drop to the floor and/or ran after hearing shots? Not ONE time has it been tried to let more CC people defend thierselves! Why? idiocy is doing the same things like passing more useless gun laws that dont help and the criminals ignore and getting better results! here is a clue, cops cant be everwhere at the same time protecting unarmed people! 5 second call for help but u are dead in 1 second! SEE stiggs u assume u now believe this nut job HAD USED A automatic gun by believeiung sack of manure sanders telling this lie spreading propaganda commie socialits style! did u hear and read him say this like i did? Unless a class 3 auto gun was sold to this muslim crack pot for around 10k to15k to start or he convertred it to auto which is illegal then he used a semi auto BIG difference! But lying commie sanders will have all believe hey, u can get a class 3 auto gun anywhere easy at any gun shop or gun show right? A .223 rifle can be used for hunting and is but not as a very good choice of caliber! And a gun can be used for self defense it also SAVES lives but when a gun is used to save lives the liberal anti gun media is very quiet about that! So shining and diverdude if and when u or family members are being tortured robbed asaulted threatened no cops around and a armed citizen is around close by will u want him to use his gun to protect or save u or not? and please dont say this will never happen ok? I dont know about u but this world is a very dangerous place! And yes, islam is a religion of hate again read a real quran not a edited whitewashed sanitized version either! A muslim either believes and follows the quran or he dont islam teaches this! a muslim cant have it both ways!

diverdude1:

@cub -  I agree 100% what u r saying.  I encourage my sister to CC, she lives in a dangerous part of the US.  I grew up back during the days of hunting and guns,,,  lol,, big part of our culture. My dad bought me a single-barrel 12ga. shotgun for my 16 birthday and I had a .22 cal rifle before then.  Funny thing is I can only recall one mass shooting from back then,,, the day the hate-filled guy opened fire on the UT campus.  I'm not saying there weren't more back then, I just don't recall any, course I was very young then.  I'm just saying that things have changed now,,, I look at guns now and they all seem to be advanced tech models of combat weapons.  and I wish there were no guns in the world to facilitate murdering each other, but what I really mean is I wish humans didn't have this urge to murder one another be it with sticks or stones or AR-15's.

ya,, I'm a hippy  :)

Stiggs:

Cub. Go back, read what I said. Do this now.

I'm not assuming they were all drunk, but let's face it they were in a bar where people drink and party so some no doubt were...

... and I'm also not assuming anything about if his gun was auto or semi auto - I haven't seen anything Sanders said, I'm just going on all the media reports that said the guy used an assault rifle.

But none of this is relevant to what I said. You're getting side tracked and I'm just not interested in talking about your hatred for Muslims, Sander and Obama, or stupid details like was the gun auto or semi auto.

My original points were that teaching hate for gay people isn't just a Muslim thing, plenty of Christians are doing that too, and;

if people are trying to fix the gun problem the U.S has then I think that's a good thing.

cub:

stiggs did i ever said i hated muslims? i HATE thier religion called islam Assuming a big bad black ''assault'' rifle is a auto is a assumption without learning the facts! And yes, sanders among other anti gun liberal democrats are shouting publicly this automatic gun [a big lie] shouldnt be so easy to buy ! I seen this and read it! How i wish trump would go to the media and call lying sanders out! expose what a lying liar sanders is! And BTW there isnt a ''gun problem in america ok? its called a anti God and sin criminal problem that never gets addressed! And its u who is sidetracked when u tell the lie it was a automatic not a semi auto gun tell a lie long enough [automatic military assault'' gun] and people will believe this lie! Why don't they call a club a knife a ''assault knife'' or a ''assault club'' too? The democrats and liberal media has been telling this lie or years! and u fell for it! When a gun is blamed demonized because of negative lables like black gun assault gun a military gun a automatic gun when no automatic gun was used by the media then by all means blame the gun but let the murderer get a pass and lets blame this on the gun and ban it right? Remeber the so called wasted AWB of 1993 signed by slick willy a democrat? After 10 years this didnt lower the crime at all proving banning a gun or guns was supposed to reduce crime! So no, a gun ban on any gun wont do any good! First disarm the criminals we need criminal control

Stiggs:

Cub ! Read back over what I said, you're not taking anything in here.

I NEVER SAID HE USED AN AUTO.

And, I just don't care if it was an auto or a semi auto, how is this important?

cub:

stiggs i was addressing shining who assumed a auto gun was used and ow sanders was using this lie! the big deal is the gun grabbers anti gun democrats are claiming as a scare tactic a automatic was used so lets ban a automatic gun then next a semi auto will be banned a gun with a extended magazine will be next a black evil asault type gun is next see how downhill it goes? Somehow the very ignorant public sees or hears the words assault military style auto gun is easy to buy well, we need to stop that with a useless ban right? And if i alluded u said a automatic gun was u sorry but that was for shining what he and sanders said my bad! When any type of gun is banned the other types will be banned next! Why only liberal democrats want to ban guns want endless illegal immigration? because guns in the hands of law abiding citizens means power and endless illegal immigrnts mean more democratic voters!

xinyuren:

Watching people defend their politics is a great spectator sport, mainly because defending politics is always a losing battle.  @ cub:  Apparently you are one of the right-side fools shouting "God and my guns!".  Unfortunately you right wing zealots didn't read the book you claim your religion on.  Didn't Jesus say, 'those who pick up the sword will perish by it'?   Of course, they didn't have assault rifles in Jesus' day, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be standing up for his follower's rights to brandish a weapon designed to kill humans as efficiently as possible.  Guns mean power indeed.  Doesn't the Bible teach differently, that there is only one true source of power?  "Christians" are just as bad as the Muslims, putting their holy books up to sanction all sorts of erroneous and stupid thinking.  The government will soon put an end to both of their existences.

You made one good point.  People are the problem.  Because people make guns and people make ways to use them.

retiredinchina:

xinyuren, after you kill all the americans with guns, you can try that on the swiss citizens, hope that works out for you, good luck.

xinyuren:

@retiredinchina:  What do you mean?  I'm afraid of guns.  I would never even pick up a gun. Nevertheless, what's your point? You have said nothing to address my argument.

Shining_brow:

"shining, who said anything about satan and or God?"

As soon as 'Islam' or 'Muslim' is mentioned, 'god' comes into the discussion (whether you believe in such a being - and which version of said being - or not!)  What I wrote about 'the devil' is a re-phrasing of a line that has been used...

Here's an interesting question (not really related to the discussion, as I'm not sure that it will be (ie, religion in this situation) - but are religious people less prone to homophobia than atheists??

"stiggs i was addressing shining who assumed a auto gun was used and ow sanders was using this lie"

Nope - you weren't! I know you have a problem with punctuation, sentences and paragraphing, but I don't! I didn't assume anything! (please feel free to C&P anything to quote me!) Go back and read what I wrote - not what you think I wrote. (hmm not the first time that's been suggested.. there seems to be a theme running...!)

People ARE the problem... because not only do they make the guns to kill others, they also find excuses (ie, 'god') to kill for.

Something is seriously wrong in the US (lack of personal responsibility for what happens in life). More gun laws don't seem to have much effect... and so the pro-gun lobby says people need more of them! Completely ignoring the real problems that need addressing (and, not so coincidentally, ignoring all the other countries in the world that don't have these same gun crime statistics!) The looney tunes neo-cons then use ridiculous propaganda crap about how "we've all lost our rights to defend ourselves... we're all fools" - ignoring the FACT that at least our 'foolishness' isn't getting us killed every single fucking day in a mass shooting!!!!!

AND... this shooting is NOT about religion! It's NOT about him being a follower of Islam! It's about a guy who had issues, and used a gun to take it out on others - just like every other guy in the US who has issues and uses a gun to take it out on others.... You'll all notice that when it's not a Muslim, no-one really bothers to ask their religion! Given the general statistics of Christians in the US (ie, about 77\%), It's a bit of a mind-spin that people aren't calling for Christians to be banned from the US. They've killed THOUSANDS more than any Muslim in the US! Talk about 'demonising' someone!!!

retiredinchina:

refresh my memory, when exactly is the last time a christian walked into a gay nightclub and open fired on the crowd, i missed that news, in my previous life maybe the telegram did not get to me.http://www.city-journal.org/html/brutal-realities-14573.html

cub:

xynuren, nice twisting scripture from a book u dont believe in! As usual u are not reading the verses before of after the one u quoted taking it out of context good job! So what is wrong with a person believing in God and guns? thats so PC liberal manure straight from the ani God liberal media! And go ahead grab your cell phone call the cops many min away when a bad guy with a gun is about to waste u because u cant defend yourself because u are afraid of a inantimate object called a gun! A gun is also to save and protect u IF u have one when u need it! BTW since u are in la la land and have armed security all the time, do u know there are bad men out there that have guns and want u dead? go ask the ones at the night club

xinyuren:

@cub - The others are right. you really do have a reading comprehension problem. Not only do I believe in the said book, I know more about it than you. Jesus would never condone his followers to commit violence or even own weapons designed solely for commiting violence (he wouldn't even allow his disciples to use violence in defending him. That was the context of the quoted scripture). Guns are weapons of war. Jesus' weapon was the sword of truth. As far as the Bible is concerned' you are the one who is twisting things. I lived a full life and never felt the need to "protect" myself with a gun. In my experience, resorting to violence has only made bad situations worse.

ambivalentmace:

jesus did not use violence to chase peddlers and gamblers out of the temple, man these new translations of the bible are something to behold. 4In the temple courts He found men selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and money changers seated at their tables. 15So He made a whip out of cords and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle. He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those selling doves He said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn My Father’s house into a marketplace!”…

Shining_brow:

"

retiredinchina:

refresh my memory, when exactly is the last time a christian walked into a gay nightclub and open fired on the crowd, i missed that news"

Ok - you are right! I didn't find anything on that (although, there is something in my memory about it from somewhere...).

http://www.washingtonblade.com/2014/12/20/report-594-lgbt-people-murdered-americas-15-month-period/  (note: the "15 months is from 2013 to 2014.. 594 people killed!!!!!)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/02/lgbt-homicides_n_6993484.html   (record number of LGBT killed - 14 killed in just January of 2015)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/23/david-malcom-strickland-arrest_n_5521878.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/03/on-the-precipice-documentary_n_5434153.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/20/jacqueline-alexander-gay-son-beating-_n_6722470.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/17/james-larry-cosby-gay-daughter-_n_4980390.html

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/131219/latin-america-homophobic-killing-lgbt

 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/07/the-25-most-shocking-anti-gay-stories-from-russia-so-far/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people

But, yeah - this guy gets a gun and does it in a bar... must be cos he's Muslim! And therefore, it's SO much worse!!! Now. let's ban all Muslims from America... cos they're all SO full of hate!

(ie, ONE Muslim goes on a shooting rampage - bad. HUNDREDS of non-Muslim, and mostly Christians kill and bash LGBT people all the time - but they aren't a problem...! Your logic is completely fked up!)

xinyuren:

@ambi - In my eyes, the "violence" Jesus displayed against animals by using a whip to drive them away does not constitute real violence. That is the normal way of driving cattle. Neither do I consider overturning a table violence. At any rate he didnt use a weapon against or even harm a priest or he definitely would have been arrested. They were looking for any excuse to accuse him.

ambivalentmace:

States that allow registered citizens to carry concealed weapons have lower crime rates than those that don’t. True. The 31 states that have “shall issue” laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.">SOMEBODY please find out why those guns behave better than those other guns. we need a government mental health expert to look out for us and get to the bottom of this.

Shining_brow:

"SOMEBODY please find out why those guns behave better than those other guns. we need a government mental health expert to look out for us and get to the bottom of this."

Well, yes, that's true!

The biggest problem with the gun thing isn't the guns - it's the people who have them. Some fools have this idea that the US is more 'free' because you have guns, and your government is scared of you (which is ironic, because the US has some of the most draconian laws in the democratic world - we other countries, with harsher gun laws, have a more transparent government with more oversight and greater voter intervention... I suppose you guys have a right to be paranoid about your gubment).

I think it's been said long enough - guns don't kill people. People kill people. The US has a different culture.

(Q: currently the Euro cup is on, and the English fans are on a probation due to previous outbreaks of violence. Same with the Russians. If C&C laws of the type you're talking about were enacted, what do you think would be the consequence in such a place?)

retiredinchina:

The news said he wanted to be a cop, imagine if he was smarter and became a cop and how many people he could frame for crimes. It's almost as bad as being trained by the government to be a top mental health professional and killing a few men on a military base, oh wait, that already happened, never mind. Imam Speaking in Orlando Said Gays Must Be Killed Out of 'Compassion' https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2016/06/12/orlando-night-club-attack-by-known-wolf-terrorist-previously-investigated-by-fbi/

Shining_brow:

Ignorant, redneck, hypocrite.

There are Christians who 'preach' the same thing in the US. When an attack happens (and it does - regularly - just not a mass shooting (yet)), no-one goes around saying "look out for all the Christians"...

Simple FACT that you and yours seem to have overlooked... this is the ONLY Muslim person who has gone on such a shooting spree in the US. There are over 3 million Muslims in the US... and yet, this is the first time this has happened!

As I wrote above.... the vast majority of shootings and other mass-murders in the US are perpetrated by Christians... why aren't you all calling for Christianity to be banned????? (if you want, I can go and get the actual numbers...)

(my point is - while there are clearly very militant Muslims in the world, and there are some seriously fucked up ones getting a LOT of air-time these days, the FACT is that the VAST majority are NOT the way you think !!!)

retiredinchina:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/brutal-realities-14573.html

i wish that was true.

cub:

see shinig, now u are resorting to name calling? are u 3 years old? Just because a person says/claims they are a ''christian' a CHINO thats a christian in name only dont mean they are a true christian ''By thier fruits they will know u'' a ''fruit'' in a christians life is how he/she conducts thier talk attitude thier word and thier deeds and is leading by example by followig christ the best they can! A muslim who reads and follows from thier quran are comanded by mohammed and instructed to convert to islam or they are a ''infidel'' the enemy subject to death if they dont convert to islam! When a christian talks hate destruction deathh to any person, they are NOT a christian! Jesus told his followers to ''love'' thier enemies and pray for them!! A asinine remark like lets ban christianity expect from a mentaly lost person not u shining Shame on u! America was founded built on christianity! Why u think we are the only nation that has prospered? Men without God had anything to do with this? No! Since God has been kicked out of america since the early 60s and man took over we as a nation has got worse more evile and wicked!

xinyuren:

@cub - I believe you have selective memory. You want to discuss "fruits"? Those "christians" who colonized America started by slaughtering the natives. That was a fine act of Christian charity, wasn't it. The Africans were next. Maybe you believe they were picking cotton for the Lord? Then there was that bloody Civil War thing. You know, brother killing brother? Speaking of brothers, how many of their "Christian" brothers did the Americans kill in the Great War and every war since then? Or do you think Christians only live in the USA? You really are deluded. Christianity is not what made America "great". America was built on blood and the sword. Just like every power in the history of man. I dont know who has been teaching you the Bible and American history, but they taught you wrong.

cub:

xinuren are u making up this from what u hear or read? BTW many natives died from diseases the settlers brought with them and the natives were doing a good job slaughtering each oters different tribes also! BTW many blacks in africa were selling thier black brothhers to americans as slaves! If it wasnt for these slaves being brought to america they would had died in africa and thier offsprins 100s of years later would not exist today as free americans born here! READ why columbus came to this land will u? he as a christian didnt want anything to do with englands catholic religion! columbus wanted freedom whom he believed had faith in so he came to america and GOD was hiis GOD not all whom claim to be christian are perfect the indians were taught by christians how to cloth thierselves read write not act or live like savage animals Unfortunately there were deaths on BOTH sides and a christian man named Abraham Lincold trusted believed God and ended slavery! Are u going to now bash lincoln because he knew God was a christian? What u hear and read about the first sellers are slanted biased liberal anti God stories from athiests whom hate God! and u believe 100% are from sanitized whitewashed stories! u know more about the bible than me? why by reading it a few times more than me? ANYONE can read the bible a 1000 times with a closed mind but KNOWING the bible is different Even satan himself knows and can quote the bible but like u he dont believe it! u can have 50 PHDs about biblical knowlege but still be very ignornt about the bible! Satan also likes to twist scripture taking verses out of context

Stiggs:

Cub,your post was kind of incoherent, but are you REALLY trying to say that the natives weren't slaughtered by the colonists? That Xinuren is making it up based on something he heard or read, but in any case it's ok because some actually died of disease and anyway they were killing each other already so it's ok?

Then, you go on to defend slavery !

Great belief system you have going on there...

cub:

stiggs u are as usual twisting my words around again! Are u working for the liberal left? Any black person whos relatives that were sold as slaves brought to america and through time became free were the lucky ones they lived but the others whom never were sold as slaves stayed slaves in africa died had no chance dont exist had no future! If they were not sold as slaves shipped to america then thier children grand kids great great grandkids great great great grandkids who are alive today wouldnt exist today! Now where did i say slavery was ok? i said if it wasnt for black folks relatives being sold as slaves they wouldnt have exist now to enjoy the freedoms they have now God has made america great ok? why should God protect and bless a nation when he is kicked out and sin evil filled this void now? start around 1960 go forward see how evil wicked corrupt rotten sinful lost america i now ALL this info is there as history Has america got any better since then? no! it has got worse Since athiest have took over the government schools all and most history that mentions God is deleted sanitized and rewritten so there is or was mentioned God! Thats called ''rewriting history! Xinyuren, Im finished arguing with u and shining about this subject! u have made up your mind so enjoy the rotten world because it will get worse ok?

xinyuren:

@cub, yeah you should stop debating this. As Stiggs said, you sound incoherent and your arguments make little sense. Sit this one out. You're only making yourself look bad.

Stiggs:

No Cub, I'm not twisting your words at all. Go back and read what you said.

Actually, forget it, this is just getting ridiculous.

Shining_brow:

Only 'redneck' is really name-calling. The other two are statements of fact based upon the evidence!

RiC - you post an op-ed piece from a right-wing website, and you think that actually validates anything?? (hint - try using statistics, like those I posted above!)

And, in case you're in any doubt - try this wiki link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense  Basically, the US still has laws where violence against' LGBT people is NOT a hate crime, AND it's not considered 'murder' to kill someone because an LGBT person comes on to you and you 'panic', and thus kill them...
This is the US of A... not Iraq or Saudi! So - 'Christian' law is in place!

@cub - so... a Christian who kills someone is not a "true Christian"... but a Muslim is doesn't kill someone is still a true Muslim and must be kicked out of the country...!

"Why u think we are the only nation that has prospered?"

A - I don't think the US is the only nation has prospered - because B - that's a pile of rubbish! I mean, seriously, that's so re-writing history with a serious case of rose-coloured glasses! Are you really that ignorant about the rest of the world that you think that's true???? You're giving Americans a really bad name there!

Also - after reading through your incoherent rants... you want to go back to the 1950's... racist and sexist times. The 'Red Terror' of Communism. Gay violence was ignored and swept under the rug. (IIRC, it was illegal to be homosexual back then!)

Since then, those things have (mostly) changed, but America has gone down....  I suppose it all depends on your perspective, hey??

cub:

shining, cant u read what i posted? The subject is over im done talking about it so if u want to talk and twist my words around claim i mean this i mean that then go for it! enough is enough! and getting the last word in dont mean a person is right or has ''won''

Shining_brow:

"cant u read what i posted?"

Oh, that is SOOOOOOOooooooo funny!!!!!

You've got 3 people telling you that you don't actually read their posts, and then you come back with that.....

No, having the last say doesn't mean you've won.

Walking away after being shown to not have a valid (coherent) argument, saying "I'm not arguing with you guys anymore" doesn't either!

cub:

shining i didnt ''walk away'' i cut off the subject or it will go on and on and on i didnt lose u didnt lose anything just have a difference of opinion thats all! so swallow your pride and no, i didnt get ''showed'' anything nice try though! a ''A'' for effort besides the powers that be are not listening anyway

cub:

Well ironman it must be nice that u have a armed security detail always around u so bad things froim bad armed criminals will never happen! Why do u think the liberal left bigger governments want to disarm the citizens? 300 million privately owned guns that can keep a dangerous tyrrannical government in check is a very good efective deterent! Just dont call me when u want me to defend save u with a gun i own since u are invincible when a bad guy with a gun wants u dead ok? i wil look the other way!

cub:

ironman, here is how it works first u are of adult age no criminal past then as a citizen u can legally buy a gun but first u have to go through a back goundcheck called a instant criminal background check or [ICBC] U get cleared u now own the gun its yours Some states require u to go through a saftey course so u know the dos donts the responsablties owning a gun its a right u are a resident/citizen gun owner now When this muslim crack pot bought these guns he was a citizen/resident BUT once he concocted the plan to murder these people and brought these guns to MURDER people he INSTANTLY became a criminal a murderer! NOT a citizen any more! losing his legal right to own a gun! And u are mistaken about trump wanting to b armed! THAT is the individualls choice thier RIGHT to do this

retiredinchina:

The fear of the "black jesus" that is leaving office has increased gun ownership in 8 years more than any point in history. Ammunition and guns have sold in record numbers, gun company stocks in some cases have tripled in market value. The anointed one that will lower the sea level and said "people cling to their guns and religion" had caused more gun ownership than any conservative or republican president could imagine. If I ran the NRA, I would give the piece of shit a medal as soon as he leaves office. I don't look at political talking points, I look at the results. The Nobel Peace asshole has increased gun ownership almost 18 percent in 8 years, but these numbers will never show up in the liberal media and the conservatives want even mention it because the gravy train is still rolling. These numbers come from a foreign government. The gun ownership among women has gone so high, that I have to take drugs to calm my rational mind from the shock and disbelief of the numbers. The last 8 years have not been "hope and change", they have been "fear of the unknown".

cub:

retiredinchina, do u know the muslim in chief obozo has stocks and investments in the gun industry? Wonder why his liberal left lackeys the commie media dont mention this much?

retiredinchina:

http://news3lv.com/news/nation-world/isis-kill-list-targets-palm-beach-treasure-coast-residents-ex-fbi-agent

This will definitely sell a few more guns, despite Orlando, 800 civilians on a target list, will the government tell them they made the list or let everybody buy more guns. I have to call my broker.

Shining_brow:

cub - I cannot express just how much of a total nutjob you sound!

Probably not - you're 'Merikan.

Let me give you a hint...1)  Which country in the 'western' world (ie, democratic and developed nation) has the highest rate of gun deaths and injuries?

2) Which country out of those democratic and developed nations sits at the bottom of the list of the democracy ratings?

(hint: it's the same answer for both!)

retiredinchina:

Who cares about gun deaths, was the death  a killing a criminal or an innocent, take away guns and i will have to kill a criminal with a knife or my bare hands, gun deaths without crime statistics is useless. Some gun deaths are justified, but don't let that get in the way of a good story. America has over 300 million people, what is the gun death count for the entire EU, about 300 million, are the numbers per capita or total numbers.

Shining_brow:

Death rates are ALWAYS calculated per capita! (which seriously screws up some figures... Monserrat had a murder rate of 20.4 per 100,000 people... seriously high! (until you take into account the very low population.. and that ONE murder makes for a terrible statistic!

It doesn't matter how you twist it, compared to Western Europe and Australia, NZ and Canada - the USA has a very bad problem with deaths by guns! To deny this is to deny basic facts!

So - please - pick a crime - any crime, and let's see how the US's gun laws make it significantly  safer than any other country (either with comparable gun laws, or with much tighter gun control laws...)

Shining_brow:

Oh, also...

"was the death  a killing a criminal or an innocent,"

Well, they're dead now... so I guess there'll never be a trial to find out!

Ok apart from the obvious sarcasm, statistically, most victims of gun violence (and accident, and suicide...) are 'innocent'. Unless, it's a crime to fire someone... or break up with them, or find a new boy/girl friend... the percentage who are actually 'criminals' (ie, unpunished persons who have been categorically proven to have committed a crime) is extremely low compared to the others. IE - self-defence, Stand-your-ground and police shootings are a very small number in comparison.

Yes, - go check the data!

retiredinchina:

I can't wait for the left press to twist this from muslim to far right anti gay radical backlash against gay marriage and change the whole narrative for gun control against home grown right wing nuts. It's going to interesting to watch the talking points change the story over the next few days.

It is ironic that right wingers are trying to warn the left of this danger and they refuse to listen. As a conservative financially but not socially it would be better for social conservative to keep their mouth shut and let the good times roll. Most attacks are on left wing targets, gay agenda, democratic strongholds, new york,boston, instead of social conservatives showing any concern just let the left keep getting killed and bombed, just means less voters for them and a bigger backlash. why should conservatives care or give a shit, we are all bigots, homophobes, racists, sexists , why bother with giving a shit. Liberals are their own worst enemy, just get out of the way and enjoy the show. The sad reality is the red states are armed to the teeth and the blue states, left, are getting the attacks, so the simple solution is take away the guns from the law abiding red states so they can be targets too because we blue states know what is best for you. Simple supply and demand, increase the target supply so we can get rid of you far right neanderthals in the red states. I'm so glad that got my back and are looking out for me.

cub:

the media is already twisting the blame at trump because what he tweeted and other repub politicians This is more free PR for the gays the lgbt agenda Felling sorry for a destructive lifestyle yes, gays homosexuality lgbt is a lifestyle no, they were not ''born'' that way either See hor consevatives and especially christians are being blamed for this A tragety is best used to futher a agenda Take God out of a country schools government and society it gets replaced by mens evil deeds start from the early 60s where God was kicked out and see how imoral evil our society has become!

nzteacher80:

@ retiredinchina. You'd enjoy to watch your own countrymen being murdered? Says a lot about you. You and I have a political difference of opinion but I wouldn't want to watch you die or suffer. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Your opinion speaks of the huge division within American society. A division which is capitialised upon by politicians and the media alike. It's a sad state of affairs.

retiredinchina:

your a right, i am a sick SOB, the only good democrat or liberal is a dead one, this is what happens when government wants to run a persons life, what they eat, what they smoke, where they go to school, the friends they can have, the doctor they can use, what i can think, what i can say, what bathroom i can use, what neighborhood i am allowed to live in, you get to the point where you want to be left alone and they still come at you. my death or theirs, i really don't give a shit  anymore. I have a brain, can make my own decisions, I don't commit violence on my fellow man and I want the government to stay the f*ck out of my life. It's not an unreasonable request. People accept a certain amount of control for a full stomach, economy, safe environment, low crime, but when government continues to push for control and only offers more misery and debt, the people say enough. I said enough a decade ago.

retiredinchina:

my government looking out for me, this piece of shit worked for HOMELAND SECURITYhttp://counterjihad.com/isis-infiltrated-homeland-security-orlando-terrorist-worked-major-dhs-contractor/

Shining_brow:

I know how much the neo-cons just hate facts, so...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/29/weak-gun-laws-and-high-gu_n_6572384.html

http://politicsthatwork.com/graphs/gun-deaths-by-state

I'm sure you guys don't want to go to the links, so I'll just C&P a bit...

"

That’s the conclusion of a report released Thursday by the Violence Policy Center, a nonprofit organization that researches the public health impact of gun violence"

"Discussion: 17 of the 20 states with the fewest gun deaths per capita are blue and 18 of the 20 states with the most are red. The worst state- Alaska- has more than 6 gun deaths per capita for every one the best state- Hawaii- does."

Ooooops - that's gotta suck!

retiredinchina:

Gun violence, what to fuck is that. a man gets violent he kills with a car, a gun, a knife, a baseball bat. the gun, the car, the bat became an animate object and is killing people like a dug up zombie.

I would argue that gun violence is good in the process of natural selection, instant death keeps healthcare costs down as well as court and prison costs. Hell, give everybody a gun and close the prisons and fire the policeman, we don't have the money to pay them or the middle class to support taxes to keep law enforcement available for the average man anyway.

cub:

shinig, if u believe everthing what the liberal anti God anti gun huffingpost write as truth i have a bridge to sell u in the sahara desert ok? they are the example of how figures lie and liars figure!!

Shining_brow:

So... let me understand your arguments correctly here....

RiC makes this statement from above "The sad reality is the red states are armed to the teeth and the blue states, left, are getting the attacks, so the simple solution is take away the guns from the law abiding red states so they can be targets too because we blue states know what is best for you."

I provide proof that this is not actually true.

You now say that it doesn't matter (ie. "well, yes, you were right, but I'm now going to go off on a tangent"), there are other ways to kill people, so shooting them is better!

I provide data, and you respond with emotion... and somehow, you believe your argument is somehow more convincing and credible...

What a world you must live in... where what you want to believe is more important than facts!

(hint: if you think the data is wrong, or don't lead the conclusions - PROVIDE A GOOD COUNTER!!!)

ambivalentmace:

According to the U.N., as of 2005, Scotland was the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America. Violent crime there has doubled over the last 20 years. 3% of Scots had been victims of assault compared with 1.2% in America.

but, but, but, gun control makes a more safe society, do tell

ambivalentmace:

In Canada around 1920, before there was any form of gun control, their homicide rate was 7% of the U.S rate. By 1986, and after significant gun control legislation, Canada’s homicide rate was 35% of the U.S. rate – a significant increase. In 2003, Canada had a violent crime rate more than double that of the U.S. (963 vs. 475 per 100,000).

those guns that come to life and do bad crimes are terrible.

ambivalentmace:

Many of the countries with the strictest gun control have the highest rates of violent crime. Australia and England, which have virtually banned gun ownership, have the highest rates of robbery, sexual assault, and assault with force of the top 17 industrialized countries.

Can i hear an amen brother, do i hear second amen. lets sing amazing grace and pray for those crazy violent europeans.

ambivalentmace:

In 1919, before it had any gun control, the U.K. had a homicide rate that was 8% of the U.S. rate. By 1986, and after enacting significant gun control, the rate was 9% – practically unchanged.

screw the huffington post. Between 1997 and 1999, there were 429 murders in London, the highest two-year figure for more than 10 years – nearly two-thirds of those involved firearms – in a country that has virtually banned private firearm ownership. THE FINAL NAIL ON THE COFFIN, TAKE THIS Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is fundamentally flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there. To make matters worse, British law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.

Shining_brow:

Ambi - can you please actually LINK those... it's not going allowing me to access this 'data'.

so, I'll refrain from specific comments until I can see it

retiredinchina:

How many Americans with a bad marriage, low pay and hypocrite religious beliefs grabbed an assault rife and shot up a bar today?

Standard left doctrine, use victim phrases, blame anybody except the victim, I'm a conservative that still walks the earth, It must be my fault. It was a poor choice for a weapon, the AR 15 is terrible for close quarter combat, an Israeli uzi would have done the job in fifteen minutes with 5 times the body count, stealing one in Miami would be very easy if you know were to look, for you non military neophytes, a dark nightclub is very close quarters, hard to get a 360 degree line of fire for maximum destruction.

nzteacher80:

Gee thanks for the heads up Rambo. Next time I wanna kill a whole bunch of unarmed people then I'll give you a call for some advice. I'm not trying to shift blame. That guy did it. End of story. Either your reading comprehension isn't up to scratch or you're reading things that aren't there. My post was about how the shooter was more of a loser rather than a dedicated soldier of radical Islam. Loser or soldier of Allah; it doesn't really matter when you've got an assault rifle. Plenty of other ordinary Americans go on shooting sprees. Postal workers, school kids, white supremacists.

Shining_brow:

"How many Americans with a bad marriage, low pay and hypocrite religious beliefs grabbed an assault rife and shot up a bar today?"

Is that a rhetorical question? Or would you like me to go and get the stats? Does it only need to be shootings in bars? Or can it be anywhere? I mean, 'bar' is fairly specific... (and does it need to also include an assault  rifle? or any type of gun will do?)

Because, remember, in the US, there is a mass shooting every single day - and you can bet that the vast majority of those shooters will identify as 'Christian'.

retiredinchina:

a mass shooting every day, so what happen the day before or the day after Orlando, send me the news story, lets see 365 mass shootings for the year 2015, another liberal talking point with no basis of fact.

nzteacher80:

I'm playing a new drinking game. Every time retired in China says "liberal" you've got to sink a shot.

Shining_brow:

"a mass shooting every day, so what happen the day before or the day after Orlando, send me the news story, lets see 365 mass shootings for the year 2015, another liberal talking point with no basis of fact."

Are you sure you're actually arguing for the right side? I mean, if you're going to throw me such sitters...

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence

Let me just quote you the opening paragraph ... "Sunday’s attack on the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Florida was the deadliest mass shooting in American history – but there were five other mass shootings in the US during that weekend alone."

It then goes on to actually detail the other 5 mass shootings, and deaths and injuries.

The actual headline is:

1,000 mass shootings in 1,260 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like.

And...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/mass-shootings-in-america/

Stiggs:

Out of morbid curiosity I googled mass shootings/ killings and who is actually doing it all.

There are a LOT, and it's not radical Muslims doing it either.

ambivalentmace:

Harvard Publication On Gun Laws Resurfaces As Talks About Firearms Continue A study comparing international gun laws shows that getting rid of firearms might not be the solution to reducing overall violence.

oh no, gun law restrictions raise crime rates, the gun is no longer animate but watch out for those cars, knives and crowbars that wake and start killing. oh the horror.

Shining_brow:

Ambi - again, your links aren't actual links....

(speaking of links, one of the one's I provided above said that of the various mass shootings that occurred in the US, 140 of them used legally acquired guns. the other 69 were illegally acquired).

nzteacher80:

Yeah. I'd also like to see Trump win just for the laughs.

Shining_brow:

I agree with everything (except "Societies are getting more secular and selfish" - as far as it being the 'problem'.. that secularism is the problem).

It's been a game to TPTB for centuries... and just like centuries ago, people are still as ignorant.

xinyuren:

@ Shining- Secularism relies on humans to solve the world's problems. Clearly that is a problem. If you think humans can do anything to cure this mess, you might as well dig your own grave now. Secularism is a slow march to oblivion.

Shining_brow:

Non-secularism relies on humans to solve the world's problems... they just pretend that what's written in a book has more credence.

Example - ISIS.

Anything written in a religious book can just as easily be thought of by a human (cos, you know, it was!) One does not need religion to be compassionate. Or to know spending triliions of dollars on wars and death to keep the oil flowing is bad, especially when that money would be better spend on medicine and education (either domestically or overseas).

Wisdom is not the sole domain of the religious!

(It's neither secularists, nor religious people, that are the problem - it's the people in control who want to stay in control. And, before you go there.... as I said above, compassion (and ethics) are not the sole domain of the religious)

xinyuren:

@shining- I dont know what non-secularism is, but I certainly don't put my faith in humanity. Compassion and ethics are the domain of all humans. We were created with that capacity. But compassion and morality are not the solution to this world's problems. Humans do not have the capacity to solve the problems, only to cause them. Your blind faith in humans rivals that of the religious extremists. Good luck with that.

nzteacher80:

@ Xinyuren. Oh I see. Your invisible sky friend is coming to save us. Great. Well my invisible sky friend is different to yours and he says that I should smite thee into oblivion. Secularism is the problem? Please... What on Earth has secularism got to do with this at all? It's exactly what I said earlier. 50 people are shot dead in a horrific incident and all the usual suspects try and make it into something that it isn't. You're no better than anyone else.

xinyuren:

@ nzteacher, it seems you are a little out of your element on this topic. I am not referring to the recent incident in Orlando. I am talking about a much broader issue about humanity in general. You are not adding anything to the discussion, so I will just ignore you. But feel free to chime in if you finally come up with something non-juvenile or interesting to say.

cub:

xinyuren, its amazing that the bible predicted at the end of the world[now] all these things would and are happening as they are! u ever here about a man 1 man called the anti christ that will come into power to save and correct all these problems we are having in the world now? financial collapse wars starvation he will solve and the world will bow down follow him!

xinyuren:

@cub - the Bible also foresaw religious zealots like you who would use the Scriptures to justify their self interests and misrepresent God.

cub:

xinyuren if u believe after reading the bible understand that its the word of God quote scriptures here and there from this book, then u wouldnt redicule make fun of God by sounding like a unbeliever by calling God in a mocking way a a invisable ''sky friend'' How can i be a ''religious zealot'' as u assume and label me when i dont have or belong to a ''religion''? The scribes and phairsees in Jesus time now they were religious zealots! And im not using scripture to as u say 'justify'' anything! how many books do u know that fortells future events1000s years ago what would happen and is happening now?

xinyuren:

@cub - something is wrong with your mental capacity to follow a conversation. I don't mean that mockingly, I mean you really have a problem and it impedes your ability to take part in a complex debate. I don't know what is wrong with you but I dont have patience to babysit your condition or try to figure out how you are mistaken. I will just ignore you, but I suggest you read everything carefully before you write your replies. Mybe you are dyslectic. Maybe you are just an idiot. I dont have time to sort that out.

nzteacher80:

@ Xinyuren. If you disagree with Secularism then you are in great company. ISIS are anti-secular, so is Iran. Maybe you could go and join them?

cub:

since u are a professional doctor thanks for the free medical advice! REREAD what i told u and others here about this BORING worn out christian bashing subject ok? i am done with the subject untill another shooting happens and it will! So stop with your bullyng trolling baiting me because the subjectt is OLD news get some NEW material ok?/ The game and story is over! So go ahead flap your gums about me and/or this subject! NEXT PLEASE NOTHING TO SEE FOLKS!!!!!!!!!!!

Shining_brow:

@Xinyuren... I didn't want to get into this discussion here - I think it's better for a thread of its own (this is about Orlando, and gun control/Muslim bashing).

But, since others have...

If not secularism, what then? As I said, there's nothing in the holy books (that;s relevant to governing people) that a humanist couldn't come up with (and, as I've indicated, already did).

I do possibly see option 3 (non-secular, non-religious)... artificial intelligence. There will be no coming back :p

There is also option 4 - alien contact/control. "Dear humans. You're pathetic self-importance and ego are boring. Stop it or you will be vaporised. No? Ok".. voosh. "Now, have the rest of you taken the hint?"

Humans do have the capacity to solve (many) of the worlds problems... certainly most of the ones we've got on our plate and are arguing about now. Willingness to take those solutions.. that's another issue!

The only way a non-secular solution is going to present itself and fix everything is if a deity comes down and smacks everyone around, and they all fall (fawn) into line.

xinyuren:

@Shining - We definitely have a disagreements on human ability to solve ANY of the many problems we face. Sure there is a lot of talk, but there is no evidence we have anything approaching a solution for anything. I am not one for discouraging other's faith but the if you are waiting for humans to solve the problems, you have no hope. The pace of human recklessness and disregard is unsustainable. Your hope that everyone will suddenly do a 180 degree turn, en masse, is both naive and illogical. Your blind optimism is pitiable. Of course, I mentioned that the Bible holds out a hope for the future of mankind but you have already dismissed that idea as an option and I have no doubt that even if a diety did come down, you would refuse to fall in line. So to answer your question, nothing. There is nothing you can do. Humans, despite all our potential, are powerless and impotent in the face of the disaster we have created.

Shining_brow:

@Xin - right, I now see where you're coming from. Nihilistic. The world is doomed, and we're all going to wipe ourselves out.

Would you care to give me a timeframe on this? (it would be good if it was only 20 years or so,.. so then we can determine accuracy). Saying "in 200 years" means there's no validation point that either of us will be around to confirm or deny!

And... no, not 'everyone' It doesn't require 'everyone'. Not all 7+billion people need to do a 180. The vast majority will just get dragged along by the rest (as has always been the case).

Case in point (however minor it may be). 30 years ago, recycling was just a hippy fad in Australia. Now, recycle bins are everywhere, and the majority of people do actually make an attempt to sort out their household garbage into the respective bins provided.

Another point... water. Some parts of Australia have gone through decades of 'drought' and water shortages, and so the government now subsidises rain-water tanks. And solar hot water.. And grey water... these things are catching on.

AND... look at the vehicle industry... 'leaded' petrol is slowly being replaced. First, downgrade on the lead content, and to go to LPG and electric cars.

I get where you're coming from (in part) - it's sad that you only focus on the bad, and refuse to see the good. Yes, we may wipe ourselves out... but humans won't go down without a fight! Change IS happening (and, yeah, I know - a lot of it is bad... but not all!)

Shining_brow:

Also... "you might as well dig your own grave now."

You do see the irony in this statement - don't you?

You don't expect a deity to come down and save us, and you think that humanity is going to wipe itself out soon... but you're suggesting *I* dig my grave. (ie, give up and just die now).

xinyuren:

@Shining - no, you have it wrong. I believe in the Bible remember? I never said I don't expect a diety to intervene. In fact, all of my previous arguments were to the contrary (you seem to have a short memory). What i said was YOU don't expect a diety to intervene, in which case it is hopeless for you. From my perspective, events are progressing almost exactly as expected. I don't know when this system will finally end, but I expect it to be fairly soon and you are correct in saying humanity won't go out without a fight. But I suspect my vision of the "fight" is far different from yours. In the meantime, the problems are going to get worse. Much worse.

xinyuren:

By the way, the changes you cited are not solutions. they are far from solutions. they are bandaids at best. Too little, far too late. It will take practically the whole population of the earth to completely change direction to forestall what will happen. Not just my opinion, even many scientists have noted this. And the sad truth is almost noone will change, even if we find a solution (which we won't). This is not being nihilistic. This is recognizing history and truth. Mankind has never solved anything that really mattered. We have created patches and temporary stays (so we can continue in our selfish ways), but we have never solved the real problems. All our brain power has gone into making a better iPhone or more destructive weapon. But to this day, we cant cure a common cold or feed all our poor. There's not enough money in being unselfish and anyways, it is beyond our abilities.

Shining_brow:

@Xin, oh yes... I'm well aware of your belief in the bible....

You didn't (at least on this thread) explicitly state that you expect a deity to intervene.. nor how that intervention would manifest!

And, again... religious 'nuts' have been saying 'the end of the world is nigh - repent now" for millennia... so, the idea that said deity is going to come down and save people seems pretty ridiculous - historically speaking. Humanity has a better score card on that account!

I'm surprised at just how well you're able to ignore history. Everything you write about how bad things are suggests a total blindspot. Humans are currently numbering over 7 billion... that's come about over a relatively short period of time. This pretty much indicates that we HAVE sorted out a lot of problems! "We don't have enough food to feed all those people"... ok, invent a new agriculture! "We'll all die from this disease" - ok, find a cure.

The problems aren't brought about by the masses at the bottom of the pyramid, they're left in place (and played with) by those at the top. Famine is not an issue - it's a pawn. The constant warfare is not an issue - it's a pawn.

We haven't cured the common cold - but we have cured SO many other diseases! And, with the way genetic research is going, we'll have a whole stack of other medical problems fixed soon as well (whether the masses will have access to that or not is a different story!)

So - once again, I challenge you to put a date on 'the end of the world'... Or, should I say, your deity's intervention...

(will  there be wars? yes. Will they be horrific? Possibly. Will humanity come back from them, and continue going on... you and I are unlikely to find out! But, I'd say yes!)

xinyuren:

@Shining - if you havent put together the picture by now, its because you dont want to see it. I have exhaustively laid out to you what the Bible says (Including the intervention of God and his motivations for doing so) in numerous other threads before this one. I would dare to say that possibly 20% of my words on this board have been related to that topic. In one post, I even gave you an A to Z summary in great detail (I see now that was a waste of typing). I will not waste any more time when it is obvious your only reason for reading them (if you really read them) is to look for flaws. I have already answered your challenge. Go read the considerable amount of information I have written already. You argue that population explosion = problems have been solved. I dont deny that. But I never said problems haven't been solved. I said the real problems havent been solved. We have cured some diseases. But we still have the same average lifespan as people in Biblical times (in one passage, the writer claims a life expectancy of 70 to 80 years). We may have cured one plague, but another one is bound to get us sooner or later. The real problem is ALL disease! And new diseases spring up constantly. The next generation of superbugs have no cure! We have run out of antibiotics. That doesnt sound like a solution to me. You fail to recognize the real problems we are facing. It doesn't matter how the problems originated or what their source is, they are insurmountable by man. I focus on the bad because there is no good if you are relying on a saviour from mankind. This system is on the brink. The dinosaurs didnt survive their extinction and if man was left alone, neither would we survive.

xinyuren:

It really irritates me when people keep bring up that 'the end is nigh' song has been sung for centuries, so it can't be true. That isnt really a logical way of looking at things. I will illustrate: A city was thriving along a massive river and was protected from floodwaters by a massive dam. As the seasonal rains got heavier, some people warned city officials of a looming disaster. but year after year, the dam held the waters back and the city prospered. The dam developed cracks, but over decades of time it didnt leak. But the experts still warned the officials that the water levels were dangerously high behind the dam. A small leak developed but it was quickly patched and people went back to partying, saying they solved the problem and experts have been crying the end is nigh forever. I'm sure you can see where this story is going. Disaster often strikes suddenly after a slow buildup (and fact thats how they usually develop). Volcanoes, nuclear reactors, earthquakes, and world wars can seem to happen out of the blue. But for those who know what to look for, they were a foregone conclusion for a long time. Serious problems have been brewing in this world for a long time. Denying them and ignoring them won't make them disappear. This system is unsustainable. Global disaster is both logical and inevitable.

Shining_brow:

You know Xin, you spent more time typing that rant about 'I've already written all of that elsewhere - go look it up", than you would have if you just said "I suspect in about 20 years".

Also - you seem to ignore the obvious - I don't believe in your holy book (as far as much of what was written, though obviously other things I do... it's nothing amazing to write 'be good to each other"). And, therefore, your outlining of the bible has nothing (zero, zip, nada!) to do with my worldview. *

(*well, actually, it does.. but you won't want to know about it)

"The dinosaurs didn't survive their extinction".... from a friggen comet that wiped out so much life on earth!!!! NOT a good analogy!

Q: what's the definition of "global disaster" such that you would say you were right? (and, your deity coming along). Do I expect something to happen such that 90% of humanity is wiped out? I think so... I'm not averse to that, and I don't see it being a real problem.

If humanity, for example, has WWIII, and only a few thousand survive - but repopulate the earth in the next 10,000 years to a similar level of technology and society... who is right? You for the WWIII wiping most people out? Or me cos they came back?

You raise one (yes, one) interesting point... 'superbugs'. You seem to think that once they've come along, mankind will be wiped from the planet And, the way things are going, that should be within the next 20 years.

From what I've seen in your arguments, there will only ever be one 'winner' of this debate... you! Because, no matter what happens... no matter how long humans hang on for, no matter what advances are made... you'll still be saying "Just you wait and see..!!!" 500 years from now (like 500 years ago), there will still be Xiinyuren's saying "just you wait!!" Well, humans have been waiting a pretty long time....

(well, actually - not. Humans are a fairly young species on this planet, on the timescale of universes)

xinyuren:

You asked me a question, did you not? My answer is Bible based and I have already enumerated to you. Truth is truth, whether we believe it or not. You ignored my answer the first time, so why should I provide it to you again? You have hope in mankind. It is unfounded. Man has done nothing in all of its existence to earn any kind of faith that we will survive on our own. To the contrary, in the face of crisis, we have clung to futile self interests. This is why I laugh at politics. If there were a perfect candidate who was completely just and unselfish and had the ability to solve the world's problems, mankind would reject him/her. Why? Because the majority of mankind wants to continue in their folly. They dont want to give up their vices and prejudices. They dont want to change. Even in the face of disasters from multiple fronts, they continue to embrace their own selfish pursuits. I cant tell you exactly when it will end for you. But, by the looks of things, I expect it to be within my lifetime. All the evidence is there for those who really want to see. You dont even need the Bible to see it. Just need an open mind. Humans dont have a chance on their own. That is the theme of the Bible. You may not believe it, but you will learn it.

xinyuren:

Your idea about a revenent of mankind surviving a global disaster is amusing. I think you have been watching too many scifi movies. Hollywood movies are rigged in favor of happy (or at least hopeful) endings. If they were realistic, mankind would die out with a whimper.

xinyuren:

LOL, thanks for making my point.  People are the problem.  The world is full of people like you.  Governments are composed of people with your sort of thinking.  No wonder they are doomed to fail.  No wonder crime and war are the inevitable outcome of man's endeavors and important issues like poverty and saving the environment will never be seriously addressed.  Look in the mirror.  This is the ultimate problem.

ambivalentmace:

retired, i know your retired, but some of us have to work and feed our family, don't give away trade secrets, it's a dishonor to our profession.

xinyuren:

Most people would rather bury their heads in the sand than to face truth and its logical conclusions. As demonstrated by Trump's rise, people are angry and scared. They see the writing on the wall, the bleak future and the hopelessness of it and they are willing to elect a buffoon in order to placate their fears. The enemy isn't really ISIS or the Muslims or the illegal immigrants. It is mankind's obstinance. For that, there is no cure. Extinction is near and that, understandably, is an unbearable thought.

nzteacher80:

@ Xinyuren. We all know that the idea of human extinction gives fire and brimstone Christians like you a hard-on. The Rapture! The biblical wet dream of the end of humanity where your buddy Jesus turns up and all good Christians who said their prayers, made their beds and did their homework float up to heaven to watch while those left behind wail and gnash their teeth in pain and torment. It's a wonderful bedtime story.

xinyuren:

@nzteacher, as the Chinese say, you think too much. I am not a fire and brimstone Christian and I certainly don't believe in a Rapture. Humans are doing a great job on their own of extincting themselves. Our environment is teetoring along with every other thing we touch. In the end, if there is fire and brimstone, it will just be the piece de resistance, the icing on the cake.

Shining_brow:

I do need to point out - the whole 'the end of the world is nigh' has been going on for millennia...

Englteachted:

Shining, but maybe this year. 

ambivalentmace:

Don't feed the left, starvation of their mind is good for them, have another drink, come up to shandong and i can let you have some 30 yr mccallens at a good price. i picked up a few bottles in Brussels last month. Luxury goods are a fire sale in France since everyone is leaving that has any money but i did not have time to pick some courvoisier, very disappointing.

nzteacher80:

You guys should get a hotel room.

Shining_brow:

Ok... you've just brought in the mayor of London to an Orlando, Florida mass shooting discussion... please, just start a damn thread that says "Look how Muslims are ruining our world!"

And, just as not surprising is... how you guys just love to make crap up!

Firstly, in doing a search for this, NOT ONE of the MAJOR news outlets has this mentioned! (yeah, go on - say it's a leftist clique conspiracy or some such BS).. Ok, let me rephrase this before you go off.... the right-wing "we hate Muslims" media has this story as written...

The more free-thinking lot of us read it as it was stated and was covered by the major news agencies... "

London Mayor Takes Aim at Body-Shaming Advertising"

You might want to read the rest of that (well, actually, no - you don't... because it might actually make you WRONG!

However, it continues...

"

London Mayor Sadiq Khan has banned advertising that promotes unhealthy body image on the city's subway network.

Starting next month, Transport for London will not allow ads that cause pressure to conform to "unrealistic or unhealthy body shape."

Khan says that as the father of two teenage girls, he is "extremely concerned about this kind of advertising which can demean people, particularly women, and make them ashamed of their bodies. It is high time it came to an end."

Concerns were raised last year when an advertisement featuring a model in a bikini asked "Are you beach body ready?"

Graeme Craig of TFL says advertising on the network is unlike other places, because "our customers cannot simply switch off or turn a page if an advertisement offends or upsets them."

I suggest - you actually try and find out the responses from women's groups to this announcement. I would suggest they'll be very pleased about it! (or, do you think they don't matter... and women need to conform to male dominated stereotypes & standards??)

From Business Insider: "

London's new mayor, Sadiq Khan, has announced that advertisements that portray "unhealthy or unrealistic body images" are to be banned from the city's public transport.

In a press release, the London mayor's office said that "from next month, Transport for London," or TfL, "will not allow ads which could reasonably be seen as likely to cause pressure to conform to an unrealistic or unhealthy body shape, or as likely to create body confidence issues, particularly among young people."

It adds that City Hall has asked TfL to create an "Advertising Steering Group" in conjunction with the advertising giants JCDecaux and Exterion to monitor output and reflect London's diversity.

The move follows a massive backlash against various poster campaigns on the transport network for so-called body shaming - most notably the "Beach Body Ready" images for a line of protein shakes that depicted a woman in a bikini last year.

(my emphasis)

So... "massive backlash" would seem to indicated the mayor is actually listening to his constituents! Which is what government is supposed to do!

But - please, feel free to go ahead and say it's all because he's a Muslim and wants to introduce Sharia law... if that's what makes you feel better!

Englteachted:

Shining, restricting freedom of expression is not something the govt should do especially if it's because most people are fat and lazy and feel bad when they look at someone who's not. And he's  probably using it as an excuse. 

But yes, this is a completely different argument. 

coineineagh:

“there was a guy there that was trying to […] hold the door closed so that we couldn’t exit,” -- reeks of government-organised distraction. Those poor people. Probably some bible-thumper decided they were good targets, to bring progressives around to the side of fear and hatred.

icnif77:

'0H' posts about incident are ongoing. Some Qs: 

- how could one person shoot over 100 people?

- were there more shooters?

- where was the police?

- was the incident staged op?

- why mainstream press completely ignores ....... 

icnif77:

New Orlando Shooter Eyewitness Emerges: Testifies That 5 People Were Involved In Pulse Attack

"... the shooter made mention that he was the 'fourth shooter' and that there were 'three others'... 'snipers', along with a 'female suicide bomber' that was playing dead..."

Shining_brow:

Well, the suicide bomber didn't do a good job!

Options:

a) the witness is reliable, credible, and accurate.

b) the witness is generally reliable and credible, but inaccurate.

c) the witness is a plant... if this was staged, then leaving a 'witness' inside would make sense.

If Obama is 'downplaying' the Muslim terrorist angle - then that's some pretty damn fast machinations! It would mean people knew there was more than 1 shooter within... how long???... to get that information to the Pres, AND to make the connections, for the gov to make the appropriate gameplays.

Apparently, there's only this 1 real witness (maybe 2)... and yet, many got out, and a few inside survived. Their stories need to be corroborated. (also need to know just how many were killed by SWAT).

I would also ask the question - how experienced was the shooter with guns? After all, he only acquired them recently... if he's not that familiar with them, that's a pretty good effort for an unskilled shooter (like a damn good effort for pretty useless pilots!)