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Q: Two questions: one about vices in Chinese culture, the other about assaults on girlfriends
These two questions were inspired by nicholasba's post, "How would you have dealt with this?" 1) I admit, when I first came to China, I saw everything and everyone through optimistic lenses. The past fourteen months have changed me, though, and now I realize that the people here truly are corrupt. But still, it's hard for me to accept some of what you guys are saying. From what I'm gathering from your posts, Chinese children are apparently taught that virtue is for victims only, that one must betray before one can be betrayed, that the greatest winner is the most outlandish cheater, one should consider suing one's rescuer if one can't sue one's assailant, and that money is fundamentally the only thing that really matters. Are they really, truly taught these things in school? So many bizarre lesson scenarios run through my imagination when I envision that possibility, like, "Now, class, open up to Lesson 13 in 'How to Be a Prick.'" 2) As we were just discussing in nicholasba's thread, we risk deportation and steep fines if we try to step in during a violent fight to act as peacemakers. Gentlemen, some of you probably have girlfriends and wives. What would you do if and what would you not do if they were being accosted in your presence? What would you expect to happen afterwards?
You ask, "Are they taught this in in school????" Seriously, They are taught this at home...everyday!
QDasmond:
It's almost unimaginable. So, I guess if they were to say their prayers by their beds at night like some children in other lands, they wouldn't say, "God bless Amy, and Jack, and Phil..." Instead, they'd say, "God, please damn so-and-so?" 
The.Rascal:
Exactly, they would say, "How can I use this guy? Does he have anything I want? If not we won't be friends!"
Local men don't accost my girlfriend in my presence, I am 1.92m, muscular (go to gym everyday), I have a beard and although I am a very quiet and not aggressive person they are scared of me. If they would still have the guts to do so I would first explain quietly to the gentleman that she is with me, if he becomes violent I would simply neutralize him without any hit.
xunliang:
I'm not big. But they never say things to my face. Last time there were three guys and they waited until we had walked well past them before they uttered something about us. The Chinese are the biggest cowards I've ever seen. Have you seen them try and fight?
Eorthisio:
I have seen them fighting each other, it was more slapping than punching, that was hilarious to be honest.
nzteacher80:
You sound like a real dreamboat Eorthisio. Lose the beard and we can talk...
expatlife26:
come on nzteacher80, he's just saying a point that he's a big dude and people react to him a certain way.
I hate when people call out anyone that ever says something positive about themselves like they go to the gym or they have a good job.
rasklnik:
I'm 191cm 78kg, and an asthmatic, so men generally say so handsome, and call me an ambulance.
QDasmond:
That's great, Eorthisio, but let's say that hypothetically somebody really did try to hurt your girl in front of you. What would you do, and how do you think the police would react to your reaction?
Eorthisio:
I would neutralize this person without violence, like for e.g. tackle him/her on the ground, then quietly ask for apologies before explaining that next time I will not be so nice (I speak enough mandarin for that). I don't think the cops if there are will arrest me for that as this is not fighting, especially if this person was clearly the attacker at first.
I just give a "cute" example. Old grand-pa walk with his 5 years old grand-son outside, back from the market with eggs and veggies. Grand-son is visibly very happy to be with grand-pa, so far, so good.
Grand-pa take a cigarette from his pack. It's the last cigarette, grand-pa throws the pack on the floor. His grand-son points at the pack and the nearby garbage can. "Yeye, at school the teacher said that..." But the grand-father just look at the kid to make him understand that they just keep walking. And so they keep walking, the kid looking back at the pack, confused.
Rince, repeat, until early adulthood. Everybody around you does this kind of minor offenses. What is right and wrong is not as clear cut as what you are told in school. You grow-up, look around, and sees what works and what does not work. You don't want to differentiate yourself too much. You feel the need to identify to others, to have a sense of belonging... We don't learn only from books, we just occasionally learn something from books.
xinyuren:
Good example. The vast disconnect between what they are taught and what is practiced is the greatest teacher. Reality far outweighs schoolbooks.
Chinese education varies greatly from the West. In America, for instance, children are taught basic values of right and wrong. For the most part, society reflects those values and it's practical to put into use the moral judgments learned in the classroom. Education in China is sort of a dichotomy. Students here learn the traditional Confucius moral values in the classroom, but in that very same room they can quickly see that what they are learning is purely theoretical. Cheating, bribing, and bullying are the realities in school. The moral values in the schoolbooks do not exist outside the classroom and the students quickly learn this when they see everyone skirting the law and ignoring good morals. There is no justice for good behavior. Only the heartless and corrupt prevail. Every Chinese student knows this.
It is because they are not Christian. Non-christian countries have less concept of "being nice to people you don't know." Now, several exceptions to this rule exist. In certain native American tribes, and the middle east, travel was difficult and dangerous, so hospitality in those cultures was based on trade, ie, since if I travel, I would need a stranger to give me water from a well, therefore I give other strangers water from my well. Arab hospitality has often been based on this concept. In addition, Islam requires the giving of alms.
-In Japan, the manners and civility likely evolved from a feudal, constantly fighting weak central state, where duels were common. Farmers are often displayed as contemptible, honor less opportunists, see The Seven Samurai.
-Now although both Confucius and the Buddha praised altruistic acts, legalism has had a great influence here. In addition, the agricultural bent of most Chinese meant that they seldom traveled, and trusted locals. The enormous number of words in Chinese for family relationships has been considered an example of Sapir-Whof in practice...
-An example that makes Chinese people I know well, react crazily is they say "Chinese people love their Children" they act like this is a virtue. Jesus mentions this in the gospels, ANY normal father would give his children food, so don't act like it is a virtue.
-Finally add the effects of urbanization and overcrowding, and you end up with a fairly toxic soup of complete selfishness, and a strong sense of in group and out group.
rasklnik:
-In addition the kulturkampf in China was effective at destroying what ever 'morals' or civilization Chinese people had. Students killed teachers, and children denounced their parents. This leads to a dysfunctional culture, similar to that seen in the USSR, and the massive drug, alcohol and risk taking behavior among men in the 90's in Russia.
-Now, although the government is always trying to SAY they want a return to morality, most people still see the "My father is Li Gang" types calling the shots, going to Harvard, and getting all the benefits.
-Even a child can tell hypocrisy.
coineineagh:
Even though I think you're being pretentious with your religious justifications, I'l give you an upvote for the insightfulness.
You can clearly see good morals being taught in the media, but the people don't give a damn. Without proper law enforcement people will continue to not give a damn. Moral values need to be enforced by law until such a point where society as a whole reflects those moral values. After all, Chinese people are monkey see monkey do.
yongge:
No, that is not how law works. Law reflects the morals of a society, you cannot change the morals by laws.
But I found this issue of doing what you want quite disturbing. Even my GF who is a Chinese teacher does things knowing that they are wrong, but she can get away with it. I am struggling to make her understand that you do the right thing, even if no one sees you.
DrMonkey:
@yongge You can change people with law ... and proper law enforcement. My textbook example, how Vietnam enforced mandatory helmet for motorbike drivers, after a few failed attempts.
1) Fund a public company for building cheap helmets, sold at a fixed price of 1 dollar
2) Once the company is running, spend one full year to explain that a helmet is good for you, show exploded heads after a motorbike fall. Explain that cheap helmets are available and that the law on helmets will be enforced.
3) Stop anybody without helmet, fine them 3 dollars.
And bam, people wear helmets, death rate on the road reduced. After 2 years, helmet is a natural gesture.
hi2u:
@yongge Laws do not reflect values of a society. Only individuals have values, and most individuals will agree on what those values are, such as stealing is bad, but if stealing were not regularly punished, every poor person would steal food to feed his family. That's why we have laws to punish people who steal, and you don't see many people stealing. Now, what if the only way to feed your family is to scam good samaritans out of money? There's no law enforced against that, so scammers abound. Without law enforcement, people will do as they please to suit their needs.
ilcornalito:
yongge: What about being illegal to spit on the street as in Singapore, that is a great example. People will not do it because they are afraid of the fine. You can change certain habits using the law as a tool.
rasklnik:
In a way we are going into Chinese philosophy here...ie legalism (Chinese Legalism)
-The character of man is so low, that only a harsh law, vigorously enforced, will make him behave.
@yongge Laws do not reflect values of a society. Only individuals have values, and most individuals will agree on what those values are, such as stealing is bad, but if stealing were not regularly punished, every poor person would steal food to feed his family. That's why we have laws to punish people who steal, and you don't see many people stealing. Now, what if the only way to feed your family is to scam good samaritans out of money? There's no law enforced against that, so scammers abound. Without law enforcement, people will do as they please to suit their needs.
No, they don't teach it in school. There are no chapters in books. What a moronic question. It is culture. There is no chapter on guanxi, so I guess it does not exist?
These damn teaser questions.
You don't believe these things are true? Fine.
