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Q: The ultra nationalistic Chinese
We all know or have met ultra nationalistic Chinese people, or encountered them on the internet, the lasts are not trolls, they believe what they say trust me. Here are some facts and contradictions that I noticed about them.
-They can be citizens of the PRC but most often overseas Chinese living in the US or Europe, they live in the West despite hating it, hating multiculturalism and every other races, as well as claiming Chinese superiority, why don't they go back to China or at least Taiwan (the last is very welcoming with overseas Chinese returnees)? I have yet to get a clear answer when asking this, seems that it's more comfortable to live in the so called "inferior West".
-They like to take personal pride for achievements of some other Chinese, even thousands of years ago. "Some guy (among millions) in some dynasty (among dozens) did something great, all Chinese are superior to other races", where is the logic here? I am still trying to understand.
-They like to credit China for some inventions or discoveries that came from other countries, they don't need any proof for this, they simply use the good old "every Chinese know this" or "we discovered {insert artifact name} in China recently" when asking for news about the discovery none can be provided, neither in Chinese nor other languages, medias probably have better things to cover like the supposedly coming meltdown of the economy.
-They strongly believe in national myths, they believe that stories of some warrior who killed a thousand soldiers bare hands are true facts, they believe that every single thing from the dawn of history to nowadays was created by Chinese and stolen by the West, they believe that Chinese discovered America but were too kind and respectful of Natives to colonize them, they believe that China did fight back the entire Japanese army alone and that the Pacific War or the A-bombs are nothing but details.
-They do not hesitate to use slurs or insults when faced with their own denial and lies, as soon as you prove that they are wrong be ready to face a barrage of racial insults.
Is there any hope for those people?
Couple of interesting points there. Could be the reason that so many of those guys are in the west is that they are from families of "winners" and maybe more likely to think of china in a solely positive light?
Maybe they go to the west having never received honest feedback and are just kinda dismissed by mainstream society...i mean I went to a prep school and we had rich chinese (koreans too, easily just as bad attitudes) and nobody gave a fuck about them except for the other ones. For example if some rich chinese kid was behaving arrogantly towards somebody they'd get punched in the face. (private schools can still recognize the doctrine of "fighting words" at the headmaster's discretion. if you cross a line verbally and start a fight both parties are punished equally) If they were caught cheating they'd get suspended. And they'd be SHOCKED! No concept at all that actions have consequences.
And looking back now I can see why they'd be so confused at people standing up to them. Because what makes someone respected/cool in an American high school, especially one where 75% of the people are from families doing pretty well, isn't just being rich. You can't be a doughy, arrogant little shit and not get called out for it. If you're going to be arrogant you need to at least be good at sports or are good looking and hook up with the popular girls. The foreign (chinese) girls can easily date out of their race, but the guys cant.
So I figure these guys just get really frustrated and circle the wagons, you know? They aren't special cause they have money, everything that makes them "winners" in their own culture doesn't work, and they are held physically accountable for their shitty attitudes. All they have is just to tell themselves they are superior in some vague cultural/racial way.
And no, i'm not saying our worship of sports is anything really admirable either. Just saying that you put these some of these guys in our culture and they really struggle to compete.
RiriRiri:
Sadly accurate. I already noticed how violently the Chinese expat circles could convey their racialist/supremacist views (like ECC's preferred source Wenxuecity).
Eorthisio:
Good points mate, I haven't had the chance (or should I say misfortune?) to have wealthy Chinese in my school, maybe because Germany isn't a popular destination among them.
expatlife26:
Yeah I just think that when "winner" locals go overseas they get a rude awakening in terms of honest feedback and higher expectations and figure that it must be something wrong with our culture that people don't suck up to them.
Let me flesh out something I mentioned above. The asian students at my prep school (koreans were just as bad) would always try and use their translators on no-calc math tests because they were calculators too. It was blatent cheating and they'd get called out for it. A kid who was a scholarship athlete (though totally a respectable guy you know? Just not from a rich family) was laughing at the chinese kid for getting caught and the response was say he was jealous he couldn't afford a translation computer.
So after class the chinese kid got thrown down in the mud put in a headlock and forced to apologize. The school gave them both extra work duties for a couple weeks.
I understand it so much better now in hindsight, but yeah these guys power comes strictly from their background within their own culture. Their place in the hierarchy. You take that away from the people at the top and they're going to fucking hate it. They aren't going to understand why in a more meritocratic culture that some doughy little shrimp with an arrogant personality isn't going to be taken seriously because his dad's office holds no sway to us. He was judged based on his own merits and i'm sure hated every last one of us for it.
expatlife26:
of course when you get the people who are held down by the culture they like it in the west because if you want to compete you can have a much better life there than here.
I dunno, I think in some ways western culture is "better" in that it is not quite as supportive of just the status quo. It IS supportive of the status quo but no quite so smotheringly.
Chinese culture is only better if you're close to the top and you can leverage that position. It's not a place where simply being good at something really matters.
coineineagh:
Excellent analysis, expatlife26! You have a knack for putting things into words, that I can't quite put my finger on. Gotta remember this post. In a way, China is like an extended nursery, and when living abroad, privileged Chinese bear the consequences of never having learned how to show confidence, consideration, responsibility or independence. You told it almost from the eyes of the Chinese themselves; great perspective.
My circle of Chinese friends are mostly much smarter than what you've described. One girl I know even admits she hates China. But I do have one Chinese friend who fits what you're saying. Every time I mention problems about pollution his knee jerk response is along the lines of "Chinese economy must advance quickly. It is for the benefit of China." Zero communication about the actual problem. I suspect most average Chinese people just buy that excuse.
diverdude1:
'hates China'... lol... I got that beat bad. I knew a group of Chinese high-school girls,,, kinda like the top group, the winners, whatever it is u call that in HS, but u all know what I mean. They sat right there in front of me and called the other non-winner Chinese students 'yellow monkeys' ! shocked the shit outta me. btw: if I'm lying; I'm dying. this was in 2012.
Couple of interesting points there. Could be the reason that so many of those guys are in the west is that they are from families of "winners" and maybe more likely to think of china in a solely positive light?
Maybe they go to the west having never received honest feedback and are just kinda dismissed by mainstream society...i mean I went to a prep school and we had rich chinese (koreans too, easily just as bad attitudes) and nobody gave a fuck about them except for the other ones. For example if some rich chinese kid was behaving arrogantly towards somebody they'd get punched in the face. (private schools can still recognize the doctrine of "fighting words" at the headmaster's discretion. if you cross a line verbally and start a fight both parties are punished equally) If they were caught cheating they'd get suspended. And they'd be SHOCKED! No concept at all that actions have consequences.
And looking back now I can see why they'd be so confused at people standing up to them. Because what makes someone respected/cool in an American high school, especially one where 75% of the people are from families doing pretty well, isn't just being rich. You can't be a doughy, arrogant little shit and not get called out for it. If you're going to be arrogant you need to at least be good at sports or are good looking and hook up with the popular girls. The foreign (chinese) girls can easily date out of their race, but the guys cant.
So I figure these guys just get really frustrated and circle the wagons, you know? They aren't special cause they have money, everything that makes them "winners" in their own culture doesn't work, and they are held physically accountable for their shitty attitudes. All they have is just to tell themselves they are superior in some vague cultural/racial way.
And no, i'm not saying our worship of sports is anything really admirable either. Just saying that you put these some of these guys in our culture and they really struggle to compete.
RiriRiri:
Sadly accurate. I already noticed how violently the Chinese expat circles could convey their racialist/supremacist views (like ECC's preferred source Wenxuecity).
Eorthisio:
Good points mate, I haven't had the chance (or should I say misfortune?) to have wealthy Chinese in my school, maybe because Germany isn't a popular destination among them.
expatlife26:
Yeah I just think that when "winner" locals go overseas they get a rude awakening in terms of honest feedback and higher expectations and figure that it must be something wrong with our culture that people don't suck up to them.
Let me flesh out something I mentioned above. The asian students at my prep school (koreans were just as bad) would always try and use their translators on no-calc math tests because they were calculators too. It was blatent cheating and they'd get called out for it. A kid who was a scholarship athlete (though totally a respectable guy you know? Just not from a rich family) was laughing at the chinese kid for getting caught and the response was say he was jealous he couldn't afford a translation computer.
So after class the chinese kid got thrown down in the mud put in a headlock and forced to apologize. The school gave them both extra work duties for a couple weeks.
I understand it so much better now in hindsight, but yeah these guys power comes strictly from their background within their own culture. Their place in the hierarchy. You take that away from the people at the top and they're going to fucking hate it. They aren't going to understand why in a more meritocratic culture that some doughy little shrimp with an arrogant personality isn't going to be taken seriously because his dad's office holds no sway to us. He was judged based on his own merits and i'm sure hated every last one of us for it.
expatlife26:
of course when you get the people who are held down by the culture they like it in the west because if you want to compete you can have a much better life there than here.
I dunno, I think in some ways western culture is "better" in that it is not quite as supportive of just the status quo. It IS supportive of the status quo but no quite so smotheringly.
Chinese culture is only better if you're close to the top and you can leverage that position. It's not a place where simply being good at something really matters.
coineineagh:
Excellent analysis, expatlife26! You have a knack for putting things into words, that I can't quite put my finger on. Gotta remember this post. In a way, China is like an extended nursery, and when living abroad, privileged Chinese bear the consequences of never having learned how to show confidence, consideration, responsibility or independence. You told it almost from the eyes of the Chinese themselves; great perspective.
No there's no hope, but you can take the conversation below the belt and hopefully get some good entertainment.
I rarely come across these people. Just online. Face to face people seem to tone it down alot.
The president of my factory, is pretty Western, but his Dad was some big general, so hell rent about Japan sometimes but nothing too severe. Hes from Hubei, and when I tell him Hubei people are generally pieces of shit he can at least understand it. He will try to make the odd excuse.
But other than that, i dont meet new Chinese people very often if I can help it. My friends are all Chinese for the most part but Guangdong is a different breed. Even the other mainlanders start to change after being here for a while. They dont really relate to China in the same way, and really dont feel its all that great here. My friends either dont like it here or even better I think, just plain dont give a shit one way or the other. Its more of a " Yeah Im supposed to hate Japan, but they havent done anything to me , plus Sony is awesome" kind of atitude.
We have a group Wechat that we use daily and a a few months ago someone posted a link about Chinese saying they would join the army to fight Japan, they would die for China. It was amazing. The conversation was nothing but.
" they are lying, Chinese are not Brave"
" Bullshit, id be out of here so fast"
" Mike , if shit goes down, can you adopt my kid, we will lose"
Friends for life
RiriRiri:
Yeah same here, you sure see a lot of cyber patriot fighters on the net, but back to real life... meh.
I'm just wondering what's happening within the Chinese expat circles these days, especially with the new age immigrants. Can't be everywhere though.
Reminds me one of the first movies of Ang Lee "Pushing Hands" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105652/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_14
Some things don't change.
It's quite sad for sure. And mindsets like this have and will always lead to war.
If men can't sit down and logically list achievements, short-comings with taking accountability and coming up with solutions, then eventually both sides will get so frustrated that war usually is the most likely outcome.
So it leads me to believe... is war inevitable for China? What happens when they get large enough and arrogant enough to try taking on surrounding countries that have "insulted" China? They constantly mention they are no threat as a developing nation but any rise of nation that mainly uses emotion and creates policies like blindly throwing darts at a dart board, as their means of governing, is a very dangerous one.
expatlife26:
Yeah...I don't feel optimistic this place is heading in a healthy direction.
I think a big part is just that for ideology the party has been a spent force for at least 20 years. They've stuck around by kinda selling the idea that everybody can get rich together so just be patient.
But I think people have wised up to that. Everybody doesn't get to be a millionaire...and most people don't even get to live at home
The only thing left is nationalism/racialism. Sell it that they are alone in a hostile world and only the status quo can protect them from outsiders
It boils down to a Chinese education (indoctrination).
I have a colleague in Canada....came to Canada at 18 for Uni and never left. (14 years now)..
Educated in the west...runs a western business....but still defends all by the CCP including Tiananmen....and the justifications roll off his tongue like a government spokesman.
Why? Maybe back home his family is deeply embedded in the modern cleptocracy of China and even though he loves the west...and married a Japanese Canadian girl...he relies on the Gauxi back home to fund his great Canadian dream?
But rest assured...his loyalty...blind loyalty...remains in the homeland that feeds his lifestyle.....
Blind trust does not reside only with the poor rural class.
Arguing will only entrench their argument regardless of rationality.
Just smile and say OK.....at least you know the truth...
RiriRiri:
So, your guy, given the choice to either spend the rest of his life stranded in Canada or China with no possibility to exit ever, what would be his answer?
thedude:
You missed my point about blind nationalism.
Even if he stays in Canada forever...the course brush of the CCP has scarred him for life. The same is true for most privileged Chinese little emperors all over the globe.
RiriRiri:
I meant my question like "right here right now pack your bag and never look back".
I mean, a true nationalist would not hesitate, right?
I know I wouldn't and I don't even call myself a nationalist.
But your guy, I'm not that sure. Could be wrong though.
DrMonkey:
For your guy, I would think it's all about face and pride. He might feel that he would loose face and feel ridiculous if he is not hard-on gung-ho Han chauvinistic ... even if he would never leave Canada. People can very emotional here, it's kinda encouraged in the way kids are educated here. Being dominated by emotions to the point of the absurd seems mostly ok and excusable here.
jetfire9000:
Result of the Chinese education? Check.
Is it indicative of some twisted conscience at work? (IE, defense mechanism to save his conscience) Hmmm. Possible check.
The people living outside have made it in a big way that most will never do.. Especially the Fu Er Dai and Guan Er Dai. Most of these people have made it at the expense of their countrymen. It's possible that they know it, deep, deep down... and the way to reconcile all the guilt, instead of admitting that what they did was wrong, is to continue with the narrative "Nothing is wrong at all! My country is strong. It is the strongest. It is even stronger than the West. The culture is rich, and the people are thriving!"
There's nothing that helps the fat bugger forget that running away with dirty money to the West was something that actually hurt his nation and his people. In the ultimate spirit of selfishness, (which he also learned from the education system and the social system) he tells himself, nothing is wrong with him, what he did, and his country is the strongest that has ever been.
coineineagh:
@jetfire9000: Your comment reminded me so much of the following story. Sorta like: "Carry on, because people have died, and we can't let their deaths be in vain." http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0881.html
They are just scared. Not fitting in, making little effort to do it, I'm sure we have all been there at some stage.
Isn't this just what people here do, all the time?
I don't think anyone here is nationalistic, but most users sit here complaining about China and its inferiority almost every day.
Why is it just venting when we do it and not them?
How do you think the users on this site are perceived by outsiders reading our comments and discussions?
RiriRiri:
But we are superior and we are right, aren't we?
Just kidding. You might have a point and I was asking myself the same question. But then the thought struck me that given a black and white choice between staying here and go home I wouldn't hesitate to go home, which is bound to happen soon or later, and not because my personal situation sucks here.
And I'm honestly not sure at all the same is true for all the self righteous China defenders out here. Proof is that every single one of them gets out whenever given the chance. Never heard of US or EU billionaires/officials shipping their offspring to China and even hardly to Asia for that matter.
Eorthisio:
Even the president sent his daughter to study abroad, all the while promoting Chinese universities are some of the best in the world, how ironic 
jetfire9000:
The question isn't one of relative cultural comparison and the conclusion that derives from it that one is superior or whatever... the question is more about the ultimate contradiction: being one of those individuals who were rich enough to leave and have a life outside of their country. They seem to hate it, yet have the funds to go anywhere they want to go! And in the end they stay put. All signs point to that they've chosen their new country based off of its superiority in many categories, yet they continue to lambaste it. Most people on this forum actually don't fit that bill. Not everybody on this forum is in China anymore, first of all. Meaning that many have in fact stuck to their word, if they have ever said much in that rhetoric. The ones still there are possibly either looking to change their situation (you can dig up threads on this... I see this type of comment sometimes), or they are stuck here for whatever reason. Having moved on, or planning your escape makes the argument legitimate. And Being stuck is sorta like an exception to the argument.
gouxiong:
I can just tell you what all my Chinese acquitances and friends say about majority of the comments on this site ... Well I cannot as I rarely use such words when writing a cooment ... But they absolutely do not understand the overwhelming negativity ...
I have relatively many Chinese acquaintances and few Chinese friends living in my home country. But they are not exactly young anymore 
.
Generally they really feel happy to be Chinese and are very proud of China or any Chinese person achievement as you describe.
I was also asking myself why as in my understanding if any of my compatriots did anything extraordinary so it still was not me who did that. Here I totally agree with you. Nevertheless I think it can be a result of education in school and in family. On top of that in Europe we have absolutely similar situation for instance when there is a football tournament - we all are proud of our teams achievements even though it's not us but these players, coaches and their teams who achieved the outstanding result just thanks to their own hard work and born abilities. What I want to say that it can be in human nature to try to identify himself/herself with the 'successful ones' - even though I admit this is simplification ...
For Chinese in Europe the life is not easy - similar complaints which majority of expats raises here they feel from the other site - simply the culture, the values and almost everything is very different.
They usually stay in Europe because from the material perspective the life is for them much easier than in China but majority of them do not feel 'happy' and wants to return to China one day (what actually in some cases never happens but that's a different topic).
I think it's very hard to leave own culture and start a new life in another one irrespective of how much money you have because a big part of the human life is also about respect from the surrounding environment and the feeling of unification with the society.
And exactly this can be a problem because so many things are so different. On top of that any interaction with the environment is two ways street and every society has certain percentage of 'idiots' full of prejudices and strong opinions. If you meet 100 persons and all but one are normal to nice to you and only one says he/she hates you so I bet the vast majority of people will consider the day not too good and will not realize that it's absolute minority.
Currently in certain European countries the extremist parties reach over 10% of support what indicates that any immigrant in Europe will certainly face a lot of negative approaches in the society what does not help much to identify himself or herself with the country they live in. And you can bet that a lot of xenophobic behavior in Europe makes the 'hot topic' of some people here - Is the word Laowai racist? - looking like form the different world.
In my country there are many Asians who were already born in the country, passed local education and are in every aspect part of the society - but still there are lot of people who would like to send them to their 'home country' not realizing that they are home right there where they are now. This is of course different topic but I just wanted to illustrate that every coin has two sides and certain actions are just a reaction on the situation these people face.
That of course does not say that the reaction is correct.
If you would be judging based on many articles on this website so you would have to ask the same question - why all these obviously suffering expats are not leaving China?
I guess that they are not leaving because they still believe that staying here is for whatever reason (and here probably each persons will have a bit different set of reasons) better than leaving.
I assume that it's the same with oversea Chinese who decided to stay oversea.
Every country has the same. Do you ever read the comments on youtube? Most are insulting. If I was an alien tapping into the web from my flying saucer there is no way I would consider Earthlings as civilised if all I had to go on was youtube or twitter comments. Thats why I post here. Because we have 90% adult comments, 5% troll comments, and 5% BCD comments.
Nationalism is the tool of the fool. I like George Bernard Shaw's quote.
"Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it."
About sums it up.
gouxiong:
Well, I agree on the part that Patriotism and Nationalism are two words with identical meaning but for some strange reason used in different context and mainly with different aim. One is supposed to be promoted and encouraged while the other one shall be wiped out ...
"When a man brags about his love for his country, it is a sign that he expects to be paid for it." HL Mencken.
Some of the children are so nationalistic too. I love pointing to all the things that foreigners invented ask them why they're using things that foreigners invented if they hate foreigners so much.
