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Q: Web International English, Blacklist, Z-Visa
Hi all,
This is an issue that has recently come to me in the last week.
Recently, my company was applying a Z-Visa (Work Visa) for me, the company is a local Chinese company involved in Import/Export. It wasn't until a couple days ago that I found out that my application for a Z-Visa had been denied based on the account of the fact that I HAD BEEN BLACKLISTED.
Now before you start making assumptions, let me explain the rather ridiculous reason as to how I got blacklisted in the first place.
My last job was an English Teacher at Web International English, before I had been hired by them I had asked them to file a Z-Visa for me as I had an L-Visa and wanted to work there legally. They agreed and told me that I would have my Z-Visa after the 2 month probation period. Well, 2 months passed and Web had taken me on as a full-time teacher. Everything was going well for about a month or so, UNTIL the police came in one day and did an inspection check at the language center I was teaching at. Usually, the managers in charge of the foreign teachers will ask the teachers to leave before the police inpsection check so they do not get penalized, but chance would have it that I was there at the wrong time when they came in and caught me teaching under a tourist visa.
Everything was less scary than I thought it was, they asked a few questions, took down my information, and after my company director paid them off with a 20,000 RMB penalty fee, we were free to go and I went back to my language center as if nothing happened.
It was not until I realized that after my current company told me I was on a blacklist did I learn that on that day I was caught by the local police department that my name was written on a blacklist, thereby preventing me from procuring a Z-Visa in the future.
So, my question is this. Is there anyway to get my name removed off of that blacklist that was filed by the local police on that day? Is there anyway that Web can take my name off the blacklist for me? Can they compensate me for damages done if it is not possible? All of this happened because Web had failed to procure a work visa for me and as a result I got in trouble because their failure to keep their guarantee and keep here legally. I have been living here in China for a good while now to know that many foreigners come here and work without a Z-Visa and get a long just fine. However, my future here depends on me making sure that my name can and will be removed from that BlackList in the future when I gain further employment in a high-level/ high-profile job here in China.
Please, if there is any information as to how I get my name removed off of this blacklist because of my company's mishandling and if this blacklist is just simply local (I am in Shenzhen btw) and if i can go elsewhere in China and procure a work visa there in another city.
If anyone has information on how to fix this problem, please do let me know! Thanks.
10 years 10 weeks ago in Visa & Legalities - China
I'm in Shenzhen too. I've known WEB well for the last 7 years, they always got checked because of this type of situation.
First before we talk about how to remove your name from the blacklist, lets accept the reality here, it's WEB's fault and your fault. You accepted the risk to work on a L visa when you knew deep down it's illegal to do so and you believed the fairy tale from WEB that you'd be ok, never trust Chinese HR's, trust the LAW.....WEB paid their fine. The Law strictly says you must enter China on a Z visa and you're technically not suppose to work until you get your Passport back with the Resident Permit inside.
Do you know how pissed off I was 5 years ago? Whenever I tried to change jobs the legal way I was always beat by the guy that had an F or L visa because they could start ASAP, where as for myself I had to follow my contract and get a release letter and sometimes those things took too much time and I lost the job opportunity because I couldn't work for that new company the next day.. But thanks to these new laws hopefully things will be more fair to people that try to do it the legal way as I did 5 years ago and the hiring of F and L or M visa's teacher are coming to an end... Time will tell.
Now for your options:
1. Go to the Louhu PSB and try to wheel and deal to get your name off the Blacklist, what've you got to lose by trying? Go to the 2nd floor... Don't use any excuses because you have none. Speaking some Chinese will go a long way and dressing like a pro will show respect as it does in court...
2. Ask the PSB how many years it takes to get your name removed and go to Korea and come back later.
3. New passport. Might not work..
4. Try to apply to work at a Gov public school and stay there for a year, because they have the guanxi's to help you, maybe!
As you said, some people get lucky and turn out fine, but some get caught. It's a Macau gambling move as my Chinese friend says...
ScotsAlan:
Yup. Good answer.
I would just add: What would happen to a foreigner if he was caught working on a tourist visa in your home country? Answer.... he would be in a detention center waiting to be deported.
But your still in China so it just goes to show anything can happen here.
I agree totally with Ironman...... go grovel at the PSB.
ironman510:
In the U.S you'd be safe but taxed, not many get deported.. Obama.
Englteachted:
Scot, you are clearly Chinese. Because if you were really from the UK you would know that illegal immigrants are a protected class (same as in the states). I have spoken to many brits and they all say the same thing "the EU has led to a large number of illegal immigrants working in the UK"
Can you guess from which countries? ( I say guess because you have never been to the UK so you don't know)
Grumpy:
Suggest you guys always check this link before signing on the dotted line with new jobs. http://www.chinaforeignteachersunion.org/2012/12/china-foreign-teachers-union-posts-esl.html Not all Web locations are bad, only about 10 of them.
ironman510:
Signing anything was meaningless in this guys case Grumpy because he was on an L visa, it held no legal power to either side..You should know that.
phoenix11, you stil have options as ironman elaborated, though admittedly less appealing. Suffice to say you've been branded a law-breaking alien by the gov't, but you can still make a living despite this.
I'm personally thinking of freelancing and learning some IT skills, so my livelyhood isn't subject to pushy & dangerous bosses anymore.
ironman510:
Yeah I've had friends do this for the same reason..Question is can he get his Chinese visa in any category renewed back in his home country after being blacklisted? Can't do it in Hong Kong. Need to be a Hong Kong resident now with a HK ID..
Honestly, unless you're really good at what you do, highly desirable and worth the trouble, I would try to resolve this issue yourself as ironman suggested a) go to PSB and sort it out yourself or b) make a new passport and see if that works.
Why would a company be so interested to hire a blacklisted foreigner? If anything they lose face at the PSB when your application gets denied. It's embarrassing to say the least. Again, maybe you are very good at what you do, I don't know.
Sort it out yourself or with the help of the employer that got you into this mess but I wouldn't involve future employers. Who even knows how the PSB handles blacklisted foreigners after it's be lifted, maybe they monitor previously blacklisted foreigners and the companies they work for, and such companies might also not want the extra attention.
ironman510:
To be honest it's already out of the hands of WEB, they couldn't help him..It's not their case anymore.. I highly doubt that they would help...EF and WEB are married as one big corrupted union.. I'm really so proud of the foreigners that learn not to work at these places.
my advice would be get a new passport and change provinces and then move back later if you want to work near hong kong.
This is such a typical case how agent talk teachers into coming to China on an L visa with the promise to "convert it when you get to China" knowing damn well that cannot be done without a trip to HK. Actually Web International is blacklisted for this exact thing in a few places on line.
ironman510:
Its amazing how well WEB and EF have established a very good working environment for us Foreigner teachers.. I mean that in a sarcastic way
I've known other foreigners in the past that have moved to a different province and sometimes that works. It's strange. It's as if the visa approval isn't one big centralized data base or something.
If you go to the PSB and plead, try to state your case in a way that shows you were legal at one point in time (if true), but this particular time you were waiting for the company to process the paperwork and get approval. Have you ever worked legally? I think it would help your case if you can stress that. They might let you off the B list with a small fine or something.
I'm not sure if your home country and China share passport information. So, you could always leave the country first, then "lose" your passport and get issued a new number/passport, then come back under a new number. You gotta leave first though. They file a police report if you lose your passport in China. But if you're back home, then China may not know or catch you from the old number. It might help if you have a common name.
, Those are your two best choices..Hi everyone,
Thanks for all of the advice and information you guys have given me.
I just talked with a few friends earlier they said that for now I should be okay, unless I go to work for a high-profile job in China that requires a Z-Visa then I should worry about the problem then and ask go down to the PSB and ask them to remove from the B-List.
One of my friends said that it also may just be a local B list, so I don't know if that is true if you can go into another province and it will be okay? Not sure if China has a central passport database for these kind of things.
I talked to WEB HR and they also talked with my current boss, he is also local chinese. She said that my boss would try again and figure out as it was before CNY and the rules had also been more strict. She said for me to call her back again if there were any issues It sounded to me like they might be able to do something but I am not sure. I talked to a lawyer, and he said he thinks WEB can move me out of the blacklist. IF Web fails to correct it, then I could possibly sue Web for damages.
To be honest, I have an American passport and I came into China as an English Teacher working under an L-Visa, since then I have not worked here legally but have been trying to do so since my last job with WEB. I don't know if I should go down to the PSB and talk with them as I am still working here on an L-Visa.
My roommate, had the same situation and he told me he paid an agent around 15,000 to remove him off of the B list and another sum to get his work visa. I am not sure how effective these local agents may be, but it also seems that it also depends on the right agent as well.
For now, I am going to wait until it is absolutely necessary as I am still working on the fringe here in trading and finance jobs, not a full-time post with a major corporation in the Mainland. I do want to get my name removed, but I need to know that whichever option I have I won't shoot myself in the foot and get myself deported if anyone should find out I am already here on an L-Visa. It's a tricky situation it is, but I know that either option of going down to the PSB myself or hiring an agent with the right 'guanxi' or having a lawyer sue Web for damages may involve my own risk as well. I'm not sure if I go down to the PSB and talk to them and they find out I am still on an L-Visa would they do anything or would they help me out and let me stay out of trouble, any advice?
I think WEB may be able to remove off the black list, that would be my safest bet.
If you guys have any other advice, please feel free to shout!
Best,
Phoenix11
WCG:
Well, I know for a fact that China and the USA don't generously cooperate in the way of sharing information about their citizens. So, if you really find yourself in a pickle and need to try something new, then leave the country and "lose" your passport. The USA will give you a new number in addition to replacing your passport. Make sure to submit a NEW photo along with your replacement application (though I'm not sure if US will let you do that for a replacement). As I recall from the Chinese Visa application form, they specifically ask you if you've ever been to China before. If yes, then what was your visa/passport number? I would just omit the information and go through the visa process as if you were a first time traveler, because China really can"t access the USA's database, right? I'm not sure how extensive China's blacklist database is. Maybe the only thing blacklisted is your passport number. So, entering the country under a new number won't trigger a red flag.
I don't know man, it's risky. I would leave that as a last resort. You'd be placing your bet on the notion that China's database isn't that great and someone at the PSB is lazy enough not to run a match on your name and your DOB concurrently. I will say this, governments don't run very efficiently all the time. Even the almighty USA. For example, I worked for the department of revenue in the US and they hadn't updated their system since the 1960's. Not joking! We could type in a SSN or run someone's name but then it was up to me, the Tax Examiner, to sift through the generated list of names for duplicates! They've since updated their system, but not until 2009. But they had to completely dump the old system because all of the original programmers from the 60's were dead and gone. And that is a developed country.
Now, think about China. I'm willing to bet that they don't have a state of the art system. Heck, even different branches of the SAME BANK don't talk with each other here in China! They can't even match up the driving lanes between intersections! It's as if each city block was laid out by a different planning committee. Four lanes on one side of the intersection but only two on the other side. Ha! The provinces and cities don't talk with each other, and no one verifies anything. That's why everyone is so adamant about seeing those silly RED STAMPS on anything official here. "Well it has a red stamp, so, I should approve it." Gotta love those bureaucrats. They're all the same. As long as they can't be held personally liable, they DON'T CARE. If someone else approves it, then they approve it too.
My advice is #3 on my list, why?
1. You said: I think WEB can take my name off the list.
My thought: Yeah right, when donkeys fly.
2. Agent
My thought: You're already screwed or scammed.. Don't risk it.
3. My solution: Stop being a baby with delusions, go to the PSB and talk turkey with them...Dress nicely and use some basic Chinese for respect.. The PSB can be flexible if you show respect.. You can also ask the big question: How much do you need from me to fix this? Some people fear the PSB too much, they all have a different mood every day. You might get lucky.
WEB is going to fix it for you?
Don't believe it. The "story" she gave you is exactly that a story. Chinese people generally do not like confrontation. So you got a story and at the end of the story it will be sorry, we tried, but couldn't get it removed?
Regarding the agents, I agree with ironman. You are just begging for someone to take your money.
Regarding the blacklists. I heard they are kept at a provincial level and are not shared with other provinces. (This is what I heard, so no promises).
Go talk to the PSB, what is the worst that can happen?
ironman510:
I just don't know why he's nervous about going into the PSB.
Hi All,
Thanks again all of your advice on this matter!
To clear things up, I am not afraid of going into the PSB. My concern is that I still am on an L-Visa and my company is still figuring out how they can possibly get me a Z-Visa.
I will go to the PSB but I want to make sure that nothing will happen as I am still on an L-Visa here!
Will I still be okay talking with them even though they may find out that even now I am working on an L-VIsa? I have never worked here legally but this is the reason why i am trying to get a Z-VIsa so I CAN work here legally. I don't want to screw myself by showing them I am still on an L-Visa when I am clearly trying to work here within the law on a Z-Visa. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Phoenix11
ironman510:
The worst has already happened, you're blacklisted right? So walking into the PSB is ok, trust me, the PSB will talk to you, not detain you. Again WEB can NEVER get your name off that list.
Found this shameful bit of news about Web International English:
http://chinaschoolblacklistwhitelist.blogspot.se/2013/06/web-english-of-...
