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Posts: 7203

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Q: In the West, integration of migrants is a big thing?

Politically, migration to the west is a big issue for western Governments. And western voters are tending to vote towards the right these days, because the right wing politicians are trying to create a climate of fear against migration to get the votes.

 

That is a simple statement of fact.

 

" The migrants must integrate into our society" the right wing shout.

 

The left wing shout " Free migration and preservation of cultural identity is a human right"

 

Hundreds of thousand of Chinese flood themselves to the west every year. Most wont integrate.  A few thousand foreigners come to China every year, a few hundred want to stay and integrate.

 

Is it fair that  Chinese going abroad can become part of muliticultural societies, while we will always be outsiders?

 

 

 

 

6 years 17 weeks ago in  Family & Kids - China

 
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No it is not fair, but pay close attention to the fact that the more a country sucks the less of a problem with immigration it has. 

 

But, in the less sucky countries in Europe, the majority of immigrants are actually of the good kind, from other western countries. I did recently see a stat on number of Chinese immigrants to Europe, and it was relatively few (.... and here I would usually say that it is few because of the fact the Chinese make up 20% of the worlds population, but we have to remember that of that 20%, probably 90% cannot afford a plane ticket and of the 90% probably about half don't even speak Mandarin, why would they ever move from their cave?)

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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No it is not fair, but pay close attention to the fact that the more a country sucks the less of a problem with immigration it has. 

 

But, in the less sucky countries in Europe, the majority of immigrants are actually of the good kind, from other western countries. I did recently see a stat on number of Chinese immigrants to Europe, and it was relatively few (.... and here I would usually say that it is few because of the fact the Chinese make up 20% of the worlds population, but we have to remember that of that 20%, probably 90% cannot afford a plane ticket and of the 90% probably about half don't even speak Mandarin, why would they ever move from their cave?)

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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We would have been much better with Chinese as the main immigrant population in the west. When did a Chinese man ever blow up the subway or cost us billions in having to improve national security?

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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What's unfair on the system which every country creates on its own?

UK may go out of EU and stop all immigration.

Would I like it? No. 

Would it be unfair? No.

But there is one problem with the Western type of democracy which was lately found out in some smaller EU countries with high level of immigration - for instance Netherlands.

When, for sake of example, the Muslim immigrants reach majority so implementing of Sharia law in Netherlands will be very democratic process. The same applies for any other current minority which would reach the required numbers.

Is it fair? It certainly follows and uses our current democratic principles.

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Multiculturalism is a myth. I believe China does immigration right by making sure only talented expats come to China and keeping the expat population low. Don't get me wrong, it sucks for us that China makes it hard to integrate, but China wants to stay Chinese, and I can respect that. A country is only defined by the people that constitute it.

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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A problem across western cultures? Hardly. We solved this one on our side of the Atlantic over 150 years ago. Really this is an area where Europe should be look toward the example set by countries throughout both North and South America. Waves of immigration is simply a fact of life here and has been for centuries at this point.

 

"" The migrants must integrate into our society" the right wing shout.

The left wing shout " Free migration and preservation of cultural identity is a human right""

 

I guess the good news is that both are wrong. Free migration across political boundaries is certainly not a human right. The government his well within its mandate to place restrictions on immigration if for no other reasons than health and safety.

 

While the expectation these groups are going to be able to preserve their culture in their adopted country past a generation silly. They're not a part of that culture anymore and they and it move on without the other. Western culture is built for assimilation.

 

The right is wrong too. In having these immigrant and their cultures here, the rest of the culture is going to find ways to be changed by it that will make the culture appear totally alien before too much time goes by. When people in the US used to complain that Rock and Roll, or Blues, or Jazz, were the devils music and that is was corrupting their youth, what they were saying was that these types of music were unrecognizable to them and that the implication of cultural change scared the shit out of them. But did that stop any of those music genres out of the main stream? Of course not. Because that's what integration means.

 

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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In Aus we have the ideal that if you want to be Australian you can be.
If you don't want to be then you are a tourist.

Unlike China's ideal. You cannot be master race.

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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Of course multiculturalism is a joke that only ever works for a given time with the condition of either:

- wealth being showered around.

- one clearly dominant side imposing a framework for tolerating the submissive side.

 

Take that away and it either blows in pieces or slowly gets back to its original condition like oil and water.

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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when people of a foreign culture live in a new culture, no matter how tolerant the new culture is, the immigrants' culture is put on the defensive. it's unavoidable that they will have to either abandon the old culture, or actively keep it alive with somewhat aggressive cultural chauvinism.

living in China has forced me to abandon the notion that cultures should all be respected equally, and that no cultures can be deemed right or wrong. i now believe that "wrong" cultures will have bigger problems adapting to life abroad, while the better cultures have an easier time. even ranting BCD expats can adapt better to life here than most Chinese do elsewhere.

modern mainlander xulture in not a tapestry of history, mythology, unique local traditions and customs. it's an assortment of maoist nationalism, detrimental hygiene/health habits, irresponsible decision making and general rudeness that sprang from militaristic education, disfunctional parenting, TCM superstition and cargo cultism.

chinese are not likely to suicide bomb your hometown, but don't assume they wont mess things up just because their activities aren't highly visible. Chinese immigrant prostitution is rife, and a high STD-spread risk due to lack of knowledge about disease spread.. it's just a matter of time before gangs of Chinese organ harvesters and baby snatchers start operating abroad, too.

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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Emperor

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Lots of good answers above.

 

I asked the question because I was anti immigration, then pro immigration, now I am re-evaluating.

 

The UK general election is coming up soon. My fear is that the anti-immigration parties get a good vote, the the tit for tat politics between countries comes into play.  That's my fear.

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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you answered yourself there buddy, (Chinese going abroad can become part of muliticultural societies) while westerners are leaving to become parts of homogeneous societies. You are saying that it is not fair that a non multi-ethnic multi-cultural society does not have the same values as your multi-ethnic multi-cultural society with a strong history of immigration. Asians do not see a difference between ethnicity and nationality like westerners. Chinese come to America to become Americans, whites do not go to china to become Chinese and I doubt that anyone led you to believe  otherwise because Asians are very blunt about that in general.

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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My wife is going through immigration process right now, in France. Entry in Europe took 2 minutes : the time to look the passport and stamp it. She will have an orientation class of some sort, where her basic rights are explained and learn a bit about the essential institution and how they work. She might have free French classes as well. People here assume she's French until she starts to talk, then they are not sure : is she actually born in Asia, or simply from Asian parents, and which country ? Maybe from USA, with that accent ? When we speak in our own dialect of English (English mixed-up with Chinese words), a few people have a slightly surprised look, nothing more.

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6 years 17 weeks ago
 
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