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Posts: 7178

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Q: In the West, integration of migrants is a big thing?

Politically, migration to the west is a big issue for western Governments. And western voters are tending to vote towards the right these days, because the right wing politicians are trying to create a climate of fear against migration to get the votes.

 

That is a simple statement of fact.

 

" The migrants must integrate into our society" the right wing shout.

 

The left wing shout " Free migration and preservation of cultural identity is a human right"

 

Hundreds of thousand of Chinese flood themselves to the west every year. Most wont integrate.  A few thousand foreigners come to China every year, a few hundred want to stay and integrate.

 

Is it fair that  Chinese going abroad can become part of muliticultural societies, while we will always be outsiders?

 

 

 

 

8 years 52 weeks ago in  Family & Kids - China

 
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Governor

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In Aus we have the ideal that if you want to be Australian you can be.
If you don't want to be then you are a tourist.

Unlike China's ideal. You cannot be master race.

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8 years 52 weeks ago
 
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No it is not fair, but pay close attention to the fact that the more a country sucks the less of a problem with immigration it has. 

 

But, in the less sucky countries in Europe, the majority of immigrants are actually of the good kind, from other western countries. I did recently see a stat on number of Chinese immigrants to Europe, and it was relatively few (.... and here I would usually say that it is few because of the fact the Chinese make up 20% of the worlds population, but we have to remember that of that 20%, probably 90% cannot afford a plane ticket and of the 90% probably about half don't even speak Mandarin, why would they ever move from their cave?)

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8 years 52 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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We would have been much better with Chinese as the main immigrant population in the west. When did a Chinese man ever blow up the subway or cost us billions in having to improve national security?

Scandinavian:

erh. Do you read the news, people ripping off plane doors, going crazy with big knives, insane amounts of traffic fatalities

8 years 52 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

No thanks, Chinatowns are usually the filthiest places in Western countries, worse than poverty ridden Black ghettos. Also it all depends on what percentage lf the population people represent, Asians are usually quiet because they represent 3 or 4% of the population, if they open it they won't last long against Blacks or Middle Easterners. Now here in China we, as foreigners, are better to walk away than punch back, no matter if some racist local punched first, we are wrong and an angry mob will jump all over us.

8 years 52 weeks ago
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Englteachted:

Gang violence within Chinese communities is real but covered up by the Chinese community themselves. It is easy to make someone disappear when they are undocumented (many enter illegally and there is a lot of identity theft among them)

8 years 51 weeks ago
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berrycrusher66:

Tis a single asian that is no problem. When they outnumber someone they discover their testicles and become a bully. Notice how they claim islands from weak nations but they don't claim any Russian land when they do have legit claims on some of their land. They are cowards until they have an advantage.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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8 years 52 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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What's unfair on the system which every country creates on its own?

UK may go out of EU and stop all immigration.

Would I like it? No. 

Would it be unfair? No.

But there is one problem with the Western type of democracy which was lately found out in some smaller EU countries with high level of immigration - for instance Netherlands.

When, for sake of example, the Muslim immigrants reach majority so implementing of Sharia law in Netherlands will be very democratic process. The same applies for any other current minority which would reach the required numbers.

Is it fair? It certainly follows and uses our current democratic principles.

icnif77:

You forgot Canada. There was report on CC teli this morning from CA: 'low-wage immigrants can come into CA for 4 years, then they must leave and stay out of CA for 4 years, before they can return'.

It the same time, no Canadian would accept similar jobs.

8 years 52 weeks ago
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8 years 52 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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Multiculturalism is a myth. I believe China does immigration right by making sure only talented expats come to China and keeping the expat population low. Don't get me wrong, it sucks for us that China makes it hard to integrate, but China wants to stay Chinese, and I can respect that. A country is only defined by the people that constitute it.

mattsm84:

Let me tell you about people here in the US that thought they could maintain their own culture without having to assimilate anything. They're these people.http://tinyurl.com/p8gjbv8

8 years 52 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

True, if you exclude the fact that today China is less Chinese than South Korea or some Chinatowns. Cultural Revolution and so on.

8 years 52 weeks ago
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8 years 52 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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A problem across western cultures? Hardly. We solved this one on our side of the Atlantic over 150 years ago. Really this is an area where Europe should be look toward the example set by countries throughout both North and South America. Waves of immigration is simply a fact of life here and has been for centuries at this point.

 

"" The migrants must integrate into our society" the right wing shout.

The left wing shout " Free migration and preservation of cultural identity is a human right""

 

I guess the good news is that both are wrong. Free migration across political boundaries is certainly not a human right. The government his well within its mandate to place restrictions on immigration if for no other reasons than health and safety.

 

While the expectation these groups are going to be able to preserve their culture in their adopted country past a generation silly. They're not a part of that culture anymore and they and it move on without the other. Western culture is built for assimilation.

 

The right is wrong too. In having these immigrant and their cultures here, the rest of the culture is going to find ways to be changed by it that will make the culture appear totally alien before too much time goes by. When people in the US used to complain that Rock and Roll, or Blues, or Jazz, were the devils music and that is was corrupting their youth, what they were saying was that these types of music were unrecognizable to them and that the implication of cultural change scared the shit out of them. But did that stop any of those music genres out of the main stream? Of course not. Because that's what integration means.

 

RiriRiri:

Sure. Let's talk about the vibrant diversity found within the executive office of a New York high riser now. Or are we walking on a very sloppy slope.

8 years 52 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

Ok sure. I'm willing to bet that most of them aren't related to that city's original Dutch inhabitants. In fact, I'd bet the lions share of those people are related to white ethnics that immigrated in the years following the civil war. If you look at the way that the majority culture thought of the Polish, Italian or Jewish people that came over during the immigrant waves of the second half of the 19th century their opinions wouldn't be that different from those being expressed by some on this board, but today the notion that they and their descendants aren't a part of the over all culture, or that the culture didn't change to accomodate for them is laughable. The only places within the US that were marginally successful in keeping themselves Anglo are the most backward parts of the Deep South. If you take a long enough view, diversity eventually wins out.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

Diversity wins, as long as (blood) money keeps pumping in. The same way that crass intellectual impedance wins in China as long as foreign patents keep coming in. Hey but you know what, who am I to take that lullaby away from you.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

You're drawing a correlation where non-exists. Periods of relative racial harmony can, and often are, periods of economic depression, while the opposite is . The great recession and great depression saw a grand total of 3 in what amounts to a 10 year period while the 5 year period between 1964 and 1969 saw an economic growth rate that toped out at over 10% and 25 race riots. Yet, long term, diversity still wins out, and groups are continually added to majority culture while making their own distinct contributions both economically and culturally.

 

As a side note, reading this thread has been a real bummer. I would have hoped that the old world would have moved a little further away from 1939 in the 75 years between then and now.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

I thought we were talking about culture, and here we are with race. Was faster than I thought I must admit but here we are.

Along with an attempt at winning a Goldwin in the last sentence, which is all in all very, very, very rich.

So uh, mind telling me again what was your point about riots?

8 years 51 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

Because in the 21th century you can't really disentangle race from immigration in the way you could in the early part of the 19th century and the early part of the 20th century. Or rather that's how it looks now. At the time, many felt the Southern and Eastern Europeans were culturally inferior. In any event, when the Brits talk about keeping Britian British they're voicing concerns about Arabs and South Asians. In Germany its the Turks. In France, its North and West Africans. To pretend that there isn't a racial component to anxiety over immigration in western Europe is obtuse. With that in mind, given the subject matter and the place is fair game.

 

The point on the riots is that the success of failure of diversity isn't necessarily tied to economic factors. Its a process that occurs independent of them. But even then your premise is faulty. A riot itself is not an indicator of a failed model. The way that issue is addressed afterward is. Without those riots in the sixties you likely don't see the same gains made in civil rights that occurred in the aftermath. The same will likely end up being true in the wake of Ferguson.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

Interesting points, let me give it some thoughts.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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8 years 52 weeks ago
 
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Governor

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In Aus we have the ideal that if you want to be Australian you can be.
If you don't want to be then you are a tourist.

Unlike China's ideal. You cannot be master race.

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8 years 52 weeks ago
 
Posts: 1439

Shifu

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Of course multiculturalism is a joke that only ever works for a given time with the condition of either:

- wealth being showered around.

- one clearly dominant side imposing a framework for tolerating the submissive side.

 

Take that away and it either blows in pieces or slowly gets back to its original condition like oil and water.

mattsm84:

And you've learned this after having dealt waves of immigration for almost a whole half century? That's adorable! It's like when a 15 year old tells you they've figured out how the world works.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

Ahahha haha hahahaha ahahaha help me I'm choking. Surely the model you're implying isn't the one that started with a genocide (nearly achieved by the way, clap clap clap first in history that deserves a moment), went on with full blown slavery and then segregation, founded by religious extremists and criminals who always integrated people either through violence or crime. I'm sure you know better than that.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

Hey but you know what, find me an example where people from different cultures willfully chose to live with each other as a community that exists for real (you know, as opposed to ghetto districts), then chose to stand up for the same values and stuff. Show me somewhere where that worked for real on the long run, in wealth and poverty altogether. Basically one example that's above my two criteria.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

1.) Most ghettos are mono-cultural. That's what makes them ghettos.

2.) Historically speaking New York, San Francisco, and New Orleans were all economic and (and arguably more important) cultural centers because of their diversity. On a larger scale Quebec seems pretty functional despite having a Anglophone, Francophone, and First Nations people all living and sharing the same resources.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

1) I know, incredible, right. That's the lesson of your wonderful centuries old segregationist model that has totally figured it all out has taught us. Go figure why anyone would reject it.

2) I'll keep Quebec and New Orleans. Notable exceptions. What do they have in common by the way.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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mattsm84:

You'd mentioned ghettos as a place where you thought diversity occurred, you needed to be corrected. That being said, the segregationist model has failed. That isn't our model and hasn't been for at least 75 years. You still have ghettos, but you have an incredibly amount diversity in middle class and wealthy areas. Simply put, our cities are more integrated than they have ever been. In fact, the only two major hold outs are Chicago and parts of New Jersey, which cling to the old model to the city's detriment, and Detroit, although it should be stated that white ethnics did very well there (sadly, Detroit is the exception that proves the rule on the rioting as the city never really recovered from the riot in '68.) Otherwise, New York, LA, Boston, SF, et al. have incredible levels of integration.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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8 years 52 weeks ago
 
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when people of a foreign culture live in a new culture, no matter how tolerant the new culture is, the immigrants' culture is put on the defensive. it's unavoidable that they will have to either abandon the old culture, or actively keep it alive with somewhat aggressive cultural chauvinism.

living in China has forced me to abandon the notion that cultures should all be respected equally, and that no cultures can be deemed right or wrong. i now believe that "wrong" cultures will have bigger problems adapting to life abroad, while the better cultures have an easier time. even ranting BCD expats can adapt better to life here than most Chinese do elsewhere.

modern mainlander xulture in not a tapestry of history, mythology, unique local traditions and customs. it's an assortment of maoist nationalism, detrimental hygiene/health habits, irresponsible decision making and general rudeness that sprang from militaristic education, disfunctional parenting, TCM superstition and cargo cultism.

chinese are not likely to suicide bomb your hometown, but don't assume they wont mess things up just because their activities aren't highly visible. Chinese immigrant prostitution is rife, and a high STD-spread risk due to lack of knowledge about disease spread.. it's just a matter of time before gangs of Chinese organ harvesters and baby snatchers start operating abroad, too.

gouxiong:

Well I think you must be totally right in your analysis because there is about a million of foreigners in China but many millions of Chinese abroad - it's certainly because Westerners are much more adaptable to China environment than Chinese to the Western one (and that is also probably the reason why so many people on this site do nothing else than whine how bad the Chinese are...).

Also your comment on Chinese prostitution problem abroad is apparently correct despite of the fact that majority of prostitutes in EU countries are coming from Eastern Europe and the Asian prostitutes are kind of exotic and/or reserved for Asian clientele (pls take a note that in many EU countries prostitution is not illegal).

 

Oh man, I see no problem with you apparently not liking China and Chinese environment but what about having a bit more modesty before coming to such vast generalization without having any other related arguments except of your, probably negative, emotions.

8 years 52 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

The same could be said about immigrant numbers of Indians in England, Mexicans in USA, and Moroccans in the Netherlands. By your logic, immigrant numbers proves that they're more adaptable, without even looking at behaviour. A money hungry immigrant walks and quacks the same way no matter which country they are from. But at least Indians, Mexicans and Moroccans are known to mingle with the locals. I never heard of "Welcome To Mexico-City, California.", "You can find cheap accountants in India Village." or "What happens in Morocco Town, stays in Morocco Town." Chinese remain socially awkward 'colonists', even in the most welcoming societies with ACCESSIBLE LANGUAGE. Expats in China can often cope for years in a totally alien environment, unable to read anything (while English is easy to learn and read), locals who refuse to try to understand attempts at speech (conversely, Chinese immigrants' accents are deplorable, but western locals will try their best to listen), and surrounded by delusional Red Guards who constantly single them out (Chinese immigrants don't get stared at, mocked, pointed at or ridiculed on a daily basis). Western culture is objectively better, which makes Chinese have a more difficult time with an easy immigration, while expats in China are robust enough to deal with a most unwelcoming culture. The facts don't lie, so quit your wumao whining.

8 years 52 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

Well, I agree that from the perspective of English speaking American citizen English is probably easy to learn, read and speak.

As English is a Germanic language so I recommend you to go in Europe to non Germanic countries (Roman and Slavic for instance) to get a hint how many people are capable of fluent conversation in English - and for these at least there is relatively small cultural barrier and certain similarities in the languages due to Latin influence (and of course the French speaking dynasties in medieval England together with French popularity about hundred years ago through out continental Europe).

I also find your argument about money driven em/immigration as  not exactly fitting. Not because it would not be to the big extent the main motivation of majority of the emigrants through out the world but because those Western expats you are probably having in mind are coming to China and immediately start with salaries which are in the China environment on the upper end. Not talking about businessmen who are clearly, on the salary men level of course, really rich. No expat English teacher would work for the salary of Chinese English teacher. Some of these guys being very capable but some very young, unexperienced and untalented - but the salary is still there at least at double (f not more) of local teacher level - that certainly helps to survive in 'alien environment'.

But as you apparently made already your opinion so be it - I just wanted to point out that jumping at conclusions and mixing the emotions with logic may not be the best way to approach surrounding environment.

Being European so our last century history was heavily influenced by many people who also believed that their culture was superior to the others. As a result plenty of people died and even more suffered for generations.

My grandpa was fighting in the war and may be that makes me a bit sensitive to people who promote their superior culture (well the clear example is now the western superior democracy export  which brought us at the edge of war and inspired unheard of wave of terrorism in the world).

If you feel superior to Chinese so I can just pity you. I would just like to comment that most probably you are superior to many Chinese but almost certainly there are also many Chinese superior to you.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

I''ve spent time in Thailand, Philippines, Laos and other Asian countries. I could make myself understood, spoke a few words. Even picked up some of their alphabets. I never experienced the kind of delusional racist ignorance that Chinese think is normal and acceptable. Your attempts at passing off Chinese culture and behaviour as normal fall flat once you look around and really compare. Teaching salary is enough to get by in China, and some may even seek it out for the savings. But for most of us who have other options, the costs (health, social, safety) outweigh the benefits. I'm here for my wife, and I wouldn't stay if it wasn't for her. Most expats are here for alternative reasons, money being only secondary. And finally, if you're so SENSITIVE about promoting cultural superiority, why are you willfully ignoring the institutional racism that China upholds and exports? Being dark-skined does not mean you are a farmer. Being blonde does not mean you're a good English teacher. Western culture is better because it promotes racial/cultural tolerance. China makes people intolerant (just look at me). The contorted mental leaps that are needed to take offense at cultural superiority, while ignoring institutionalized racism in favour of China, make me believe you're just a wumao. And claiming to have a relative who died in the war is equally offensive. My Scottish uncle was a real fighter pilot who died in the air over Arnhem during WWII, and is buried there. My 2nd name (Ivan) is in memory of him. He fought against oppression. You wumaos are paid to validate China's oppression, and it's awful that you'd belittle the sacrifices of war heroes by concocting stories like this.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

Dear coineineagh,

What I mean is that in case you would use you like or prefer some culture more so I guess there is nothing wrong with that.

But you apparently really mean that your culture is superior to another. I find it totally wrong and what is even more striking terribly dangerous.

I really have a problem with people who are believing that their culture, nation etc. is superior to the others. Some of them are just harmless dumber but some of them can develop into the real danger to the world ...

 

8 years 51 weeks ago
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coineineagh:

you are fearmongering. a superior culture can advance through soft power and passive spread. if concentration camps and military invasions are involved, that's hardly a sign of a superior culture. you are drawing correlations between the USA's militarism, and culture. a typical wumao tactic. in fact, if China had the same power at its disposal, it WOULD use it to impose its bad culture everywhere.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

Oh, you do not need to go immediately for such an extreme ...

It's enough to have couple of guys with superiority complex believing that they can 'help' others to share the same values and live same life style...

In my eyes the world should be a bit more about tolerance rather that feeling superior just due to the place where the person was born but this clearly is not your opinion.

Anyway - I assume we may end this discussion here as it leads nowhere and no need to escalate it to personal offenses level.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

Ahahah, a couple of guys with superiority complex believing that they can 'help' others to share the same values and live same life style... you mean like Tibet or Xinjiang?

Come on, buddy, come earning your fifty cents.

 

Oh no sorry you already opted out of this one.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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8 years 52 weeks ago
 
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Lots of good answers above.

 

I asked the question because I was anti immigration, then pro immigration, now I am re-evaluating.

 

The UK general election is coming up soon. My fear is that the anti-immigration parties get a good vote, the the tit for tat politics between countries comes into play.  That's my fear.

gouxiong:

I am a strong believer of free goods, capital and persons circulation.

I assume that the place where one person was born does not make such person automatically better or worse than people born in other places.

On top of that the big differences in different places material wealth can potentially create quite an instability - see the desire of the people from poor countries to come to Europe or US - current quite severe problems of Spain, Italy and Greece are also partly caused by the increased immigration from North Africa.

It's of course impossible to say that we now fully open our borders and see what happens. But to go into the opposite swing and to close the borders more and more is equally 'not smart' . 

Unfortunately this is what is currently happening in the whole EU - xenophobic and nationalistic parties are getting increased support because average European somehow believes into absolutely false promises of several populists. They do not realize that European problems are based on the fact that majority of European countries are spending yearly much more than they are able to collect/earn. 

The situation will get worse and worse and if nothing is done so several years later it can be really really hard landing for Europe. And the people who will suffer the most are exactly those who let themselves persuaded by nice, but impossible, plans of current European populists.

The world has changed as Europe cannot take anymore the resources of earlier colonies and for US it will also not last long that they will be able to go to more or less any third world country of their choice as per their wish (this thanks to Russia and China growing economical, political and military strength). The world will get a bit more balanced but that means in disfavor to current Europe. And Europe instead preparing for such an environment by implementing fast reforms in order to increase own competitiveness is just trying to limit immigration not only from non EU countries but also from EU itself (UK is the leader in this but the same voices are now in Netherlands and France).

I do not see the immediate future for Europe too bright ...

8 years 51 weeks ago
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RiriRiri:

You're a strong believer of what your boss tells you to believe, that's for sure. Did you ask for your promotion on SCMP by the way?

8 years 51 weeks ago
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Jíliú.hé:

i do not want to sound like i support the British Movement or even the National Front but racism is the belief that that one race or people are inherently better than another, so you can prefer your own people and culture over others without being racist. A person  can use cultural relativism and still prefer there own people they don't need to be afraid or ignorant they just need to have a preference. so those people have a right as citizens of a nation to voice their opinion of who they want to become citizens. it is the right  of the citizens  to chose not the right of an individual or the people wanting to become citizens .

8 years 51 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

Dear Jíliú.hé,

I think I did not mention in my comment anything about the race - I was talking about culture and nation.

I also did not mention anything in the direction that liking or preferring  certain cultures is/shall be wrong. I see nothing wrong with that.

My point here was more about, from my perspective, quite a wrong direction of certain populist parties in many European countries who want to persuade their countries citizens that isolating themselves is the best way they can do.

I find it wrong. But if UK opts for stopping all immigration, stopping issuing work permits for foreigners and decides to leave EU so it's certainly UK's right and even though I would not be happy from it so I would also not have any trouble with it. 

I just hope my country will not follow this trend (and actually I also hope that UK will also not).

I believe that every person should be willing to participate and try to succeed in the open competition (provided this person is not in some sense disabled - and by this I do not mean certain mental disability of some contributors to this site).

8 years 51 weeks ago
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8 years 51 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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you answered yourself there buddy, (Chinese going abroad can become part of muliticultural societies) while westerners are leaving to become parts of homogeneous societies. You are saying that it is not fair that a non multi-ethnic multi-cultural society does not have the same values as your multi-ethnic multi-cultural society with a strong history of immigration. Asians do not see a difference between ethnicity and nationality like westerners. Chinese come to America to become Americans, whites do not go to china to become Chinese and I doubt that anyone led you to believe  otherwise because Asians are very blunt about that in general.

DrMonkey:

I came to do that in China : integrate. I started by taking intensive Mandarin class for several weeks, at my own expense. I found a job on my own, a local job (IT teaching) with local income, where I was the only foreign employee. I never built an expat bubble. The onyl expats I saw where those from the residence I was automatically put in by my employer (public university). Guess who walked away from me when I asked my way ? Guess who carefully avoided interaction at work, on the basis of "errr, laowai" ?

8 years 51 weeks ago
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gouxiong:

DrMonkey,

May be it was not your fellow workers fault, may be it was your behavior/interaction way etc. which prevented you from achieving better result. Or may be you just did not fit into the environment - that also sometimes happens.

I met once a Fench guy in Chongqing who had more or less no problem with understanding conversational Chinese, could read and write quite decently but spoke horribly. The guy was actively searching for the opportunity to practice Chinese complaining that there is nobody with whom he could talk and classes are too expensive. When I asked him why he just does not go on the street, teashop or restaurant and does not start speaking to people so he looked at me like that I came from different planet...

I think that as long as this guy does not change his own attitude so he will have very slim chance to find a local acquaintance or friend.

Apparently many people writing here their comments came to China only to learn that it's for them much of the challenge and they are not able to have a happy life here. Nothing wrong with that - just leave to seek your happiness elsewhere.

8 years 51 weeks ago
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My wife is going through immigration process right now, in France. Entry in Europe took 2 minutes : the time to look the passport and stamp it. She will have an orientation class of some sort, where her basic rights are explained and learn a bit about the essential institution and how they work. She might have free French classes as well. People here assume she's French until she starts to talk, then they are not sure : is she actually born in Asia, or simply from Asian parents, and which country ? Maybe from USA, with that accent ? When we speak in our own dialect of English (English mixed-up with Chinese words), a few people have a slightly surprised look, nothing more.

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A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77