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Posts: 2531

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Q: What "Tier" of expat are you? Is there a "Tier" system where you are?

When I first came to China, I thought all expats had one category. The "foreigner category". I used to work in ESL during a time when most foreigners here where back-packers and English teachers. 

 

Over time, I started to hear comments from people when I moved around China (one being my DoS or Director of Study). He mentioned we would be going to an event (as a school) and that we should expect other foreigners (from other industries) to look down on us. In his words, "We were bottom of the barrel". That really bugged me. I never saw myself or the job of educating young minds as "low class".

 

And then I noticed some Chinese shared the same sentiment, one women even saying in Chinese to her friends at a pizza parlor, "Many foreigners come here, most couldn't find jobs in their own country and are trash". So I gues she likes dining with trash? 

 

I noticed in the smaller cities people didn't care as much as the larger cities. 

 

One of my Chinese buddies got drunk on Bai jiu and spilled the beans on how they rated foreigners.

 

If you spoke Chinese, are married to a Chinese national or have been here over 5 years, then you get a little bit of extra brownie points. Here's how the Tiers go according to which fields:

 

1 - Ambassadors or politically related

2 - Large international corporations

3 - Import/Export - Scientific Research or Engineering

4 - Small Business Owners (perhaps models, actors, etc. are in this category)

5 - Intentional or Subject Teachers

6 - ESL teachers (training centers being the possible lowest)

 

What do you think of this, bullshit or truth? Do you experience other expats that "kan bu qi (look down on)" on others they feel are a lower tier?   

10 years 13 weeks ago in  Lifestyle - China

 
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  I guess i'm fortunate in that I couldn't give a rat's arse what anyone thinks of me being a teacher, I think it's a grand thing to do with ones time, if you do it well, but then i'm firmly of the opinion that our criticisms and perceptions of others are projections of our own limited understanding of ourselves, so if someone looks down on me it's actually more a matter of their own struggling self-esteem. Having said that though, i'm number six on your list, am poorly educated, partially dyslexic, and was a bottom rung, box lifting, crack smoking alcoholic back home, so heck, maybe i'm not the best one to espouse the virtues of being non-judgemental, huh?

nicholasba:

thumbs up

10 years 12 weeks ago
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royceH:

HAR!!!  Who isn't, Martian!  Well, I've never taken illegal drugs and haven't stolen anything since a pewter beer mug when I was 18, but otherwise I'm right on your page!

From one 6th Tier loser to another....Here's Cheers Matey!

 

 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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mArtiAn:

  Bottoms UP! 

  Now SMILE!

(That's a good trick if ever i've seen one)

10 years 12 weeks ago
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10 years 12 weeks ago
 
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I would definatly agree that people look down on others, and i think that people feel shame being on the lower tiers.  I think people in smaller cities dont see or feel it as much because the international communities are much more of the ESL type than  in other cities. I would disagree with your list. Not my opinion mind you but from what I have seen.

 

1 REAL JOBS

2 REAL teachers

3 illegals

mike695ca:

no pont answering the tier part, as no one can win, if high, feel like bragging, others wont answer anyways, or straight up lie. Best to leave that part alone.

10 years 13 weeks ago
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10 years 13 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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How about students? What tier are they? Are degree students a higher tier than language students? I expect so.

Robk:

Good question, I don't know how the Chinese guy saw them. I think it perplexes him why anyone would want to study in China when they are all sending their kids abroad haha. 

 

I think he would see them higher than ESL teachers but lower than international teachers... but really a shallow well like a shallow mind is worthless, and people that judge so quickly are shallow people. 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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10 years 13 weeks ago
 
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Yup, in a few occasions, I sensed that "Feww, you are not an ESL teacher, you are a fine guy !" reaction from Chinese and expats. Teaching is hard, teaching in a very foreign culture is even harder.  There is more to people than their job title or their look. Nowadays, to me, as far as you have some tales to tell me, you're my friend Laughing out loud

nicholasba:

ive heard that too.

10 years 13 weeks ago
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10 years 13 weeks ago
 
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Trying to categorize this is stupid. It's not about what you do, but how you do it. I know this might not be the case in Chinese society, but hey, 1.3 billion people could be wrong sometimes. 

Robk:

I agree, but people have the need to put people in boxes and then judge them. 

 

I am not going to give a psychology lesson to 1.4 billion people however... I am just letting to know how they think because it will probably affect some of your interactions or how you live while you are here. 

 

 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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Scandinavian:

there is two kinds of people, those who put themselves in boxes and those who don't

10 years 12 weeks ago
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Scandinavian:

I would be 3 I guess. Working on an IT project for a US company. 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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10 years 13 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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i have never heard that from any expat, but most chinese i met look definitely down on english teachers.

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10 years 13 weeks ago
 
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Not going to rock a boat full of ESL teachers.

Scandinavian:

Don't worry, it is already stationary at the bottom of the pond. 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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Robk:

Why not? 

 

If there is no truth to it, then why would anyone's feelings be hurt? 

 

We always criticize Chinese for being too defensive... and acting immaturely when people say things they don't like. What happens when the tables are reversed? 

 

 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

In my blog critical of ESL teachers, the feedback was very mixed. 15 people had clear negative responses. 7 were neutral/mixed/didn't say. 17 were clear positives. Couple of the negative guys though went absolutely crazy about what I wrote.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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10 years 13 weeks ago
 
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Most of the ESL people I have known were decent people. It wasn't the first choice of job for many of them, but they weren't desperate either. I am not a teacher myself, but I wouldn't look down on them even if I know that's the standard job backpackers used to fill. I would at least wait to know the person.

 

On the other hand, I had an experience in an ambassy, which convinced me never to put a long term step in this domain.

This was a very very rotten place to work in.

nicholasba:

100% agreed! Really i know what you talking about.wink

10 years 13 weeks ago
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ironman510:

Hey, pays the bills, could care less what people think of us ESL teachers.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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TMaster:

There's salary and then there's self respect.

Which is why I won't work in an ambassy. ESL is OK.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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Robk:

What happened? Just curious. 

 

I agree, if those people want to waste their time looking down on others then they are the ones with the problem not ESL teachers. It is plain, old insecurity. 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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I wonder how teachers in general are looked upon here?

 

As I understand it, teaching is not a mega paid job here, either for foreigners or locals. So is it only foreign teachers who are "looked down upon", or the whole teaching profession as a whole?

 

Also, I think many people in all countries are they same when it comes to looking down on immigrants.  All that "fear of the unknown" stuff, pack mentality etc. You only have to have a read of the Daily Mail for examples Smile

 

Personally I would not worry about it.  If I met someone here from my home country who looked down on me I would assume he would do the same at home. 

 

As for the local populace and friends looking down, could this be because of the wage differential between you and them? Without a doubt, you will be on a higher wage. So maybe a bit of resentment there.  

 

Then, to cap it all is the face thing. In my workplace I probably lose face all the time.  If I make a mistake I put my hand up and admit to it. I just can't get my head around this whole face concept at all. I expect I have a total zero face score Smile

Scandinavian:

For a Chinese national, being a teacher is certainly not a bad thing. 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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nicholasba:

you are in idealist, norv.

I have worked as a translator for a famous art insitute in china and i can assure you that teachers dont really give a fuxx about their students.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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ScotsAlan:

I know one local woman who was a teacher in a local school. She says she packed it in when she discovered the street vendor outside the school made more money than her.

 

Anyway Scan, I just wondered what the professional status of teaching was here.  Years ago in the UK the local teacher was expected to be a pillar of society. But I don't think that's so much the case now.

 

I would have thought any teaching job here just be high status, given the importance that is placed on education. I will quiz some local friends on this tonight.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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Robk:

Hey Scots, 

 

Nice question. I can put it bluntly for you. Chinese teachers (especially high school) usually have way more stress, less pay BUT more respect from the parents and children. 

 

Foreign teachers usually have more pay (equivalent to a manger or excellent job with in the city) but in MOST cases, less stress and less respect overall.

 

This is NOT in every case but seems to be the dominant trend. 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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jetfire9000:

I applaud your honesty, but I think it really works against you here.  You should really do what everybody else does and stick your head in the sand to whatever goes wrong.  Honesty just doesn't work here.

 

Make a loosely connected ally or two within the company. You may need to treat them out once or twice to help with that.  Also learn enough Chinese to point the finger at somebody else when something goes awry.  That aught to be enough to get you your face points back.  You'll realize Chinese will suddenly have a short memory  of those past things so long as you treat them out once or twice.

Oh yeah, high school teachers get tons more respect than company teachers. By the end of the year you may find yourself with a lot of gifts from the worse students worried about failing. I knew a guy who got 3 ipads from different students one semester.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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juanisaac:

Today, these poor teachers are not as poor as they used to be.  One has to look at all the grey money they get from parents.  My ex-gf made 30,000 yuan every summer teaching at her house.  One hundred yuan per student per class.

I have one language student that after class with me goes to his math teacher's house for extra lessons.  I can also mention the dinners and other gifts teachers are given.  At one particular get together a parent gave me a gift certificate for 500 yuan.  The way it was explained to me is that the parent was apologizing before hand for his son's naughty comportment during the school year.

In my part of the world, middle school teachers make around 5k a month and elementary school teachers  make 3.5 k.  I make about 5 k a month. The really good science and maths teachers make more than that.  The lower tier subjects like art and music make less.   I know this information because I spoke with the head of teacher training in the town I was in. He told me the average salaries they were confirmed by teachers I know at my present school

Let us not forget that Chinese teachers get a pension, bonuses for test scores and for the end of the year, teachers' day bonus, and don't forget what the parents give them. 

With this said, financially Chinese are doing better than before.  However, they also work harder than I do.  I get a little higher gross salary, but then again I was the only foreign teacher in the whole town two years ago.  Being alone in a foreign country needs a little compensation as well.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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Shifu

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Chinese people definitely have a sense of contempt towards their English teachers, old or young.   I'm a young guy but I've also had the opportunity to listen to so many Chinese university students complaining about their English teachers (who seemingly deserve their bad callout if the allegations are true. Apparently there are quite a few lecherous ones out there.)

 

That isn't to suggest that jealousy isn't also an issue.  We all know that when students ask us "Do you know China?" the answer is actually an ironclad, predetermined "NO."  We are just here to earn "easy money" (actually putting up with all their crap is never easy)  while leading a super easy life full of "luxuries" and pleasures.  

 

It is low reward work; I am sure many a teacher start out very vibrant and full of energy, trying to teach the difference between "he" and "she, as well as asking students to please say something else other than  "broaden my horizons," "every coin has two sides," and  "I like eating delicious food."

At the end of the day, 90% of the time most English teaching is to no avail.  Every class of 30 students may have 1-3 standouts who want to learn, but the overwhelming multitude of unwilling learners makes the process sort of grueling. The weaker willed teachers may become worn down and eventually begin accepting those dull answers like "every coin has two sides" without hesitation.

One ironic note to mention about the haters: As much as they seem to dislike English teachers, most haters themselves are lacking in sufficient English proficiency to teach. Apparently I came here to find a job because I'm a failure in my own country. Anyway, at least I still managed to find a job that's better than what they do. Ouch!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I definitely think ESL teachers get a bad rap here, that is one of the reasons I decided to get out.  In China life is hard for the locals so they are a bit envious when someone can get a relatively high paying job (compared to most locals) just being able to speak their native language.  Though there are some rather professional and hard working ESL teachers a lot are not and part of this reason lies in the management at some of the schools who say "No need to prepare anything,just open your mouth and speak English".  These schools aren't putting the teachers in a spot to earn any respect either.    

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I thinks the schools and agents don't help either by having prominent adverts for non qualified teachers.

 

They are the ones dragging down the ESL profession in their greed to make a fast buck, I reckon.  Counterproductive of course, because they are destroying the very market they are trying to exploit.

 

Anyhow..... Hogmanay..... off for a beer

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  I guess i'm fortunate in that I couldn't give a rat's arse what anyone thinks of me being a teacher, I think it's a grand thing to do with ones time, if you do it well, but then i'm firmly of the opinion that our criticisms and perceptions of others are projections of our own limited understanding of ourselves, so if someone looks down on me it's actually more a matter of their own struggling self-esteem. Having said that though, i'm number six on your list, am poorly educated, partially dyslexic, and was a bottom rung, box lifting, crack smoking alcoholic back home, so heck, maybe i'm not the best one to espouse the virtues of being non-judgemental, huh?

nicholasba:

thumbs up

10 years 12 weeks ago
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royceH:

HAR!!!  Who isn't, Martian!  Well, I've never taken illegal drugs and haven't stolen anything since a pewter beer mug when I was 18, but otherwise I'm right on your page!

From one 6th Tier loser to another....Here's Cheers Matey!

 

 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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mArtiAn:

  Bottoms UP! 

  Now SMILE!

(That's a good trick if ever i've seen one)

10 years 12 weeks ago
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Shifu

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who gives a crap what anyone is thinking. i do whatever i like to do. btw teaching was more fun than the office sitting

ironman510:

Agreed, 10 points man.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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Shifu

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I hope nobody looks down on me for being an ESL teacher. If they do that is their opinion. Maybe I have been just fortunate. True, I would not qualify as a teacher in Canada.  I don't have a degree in Education. What I have noticed is that ESL teachers are not really expected to teach.  The subject teachers might be. I keep hearing that ESL teachers are supposed to be 2 things: marketers, and give the students a chance to speak some English. Personally I find teaching to be enjoyable and fun.  The students like me and eventually come out of their shell.  When I have problems it is always with the living quarters.

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Why is no one answering the question? He didnt ask what you thought of the tier system, and he didnt ask if you care how you are perceived. He asked if you had noticed any sort of levels within the expat community. 

 

Of course it natural to express dis-interest if you happen to be a lower tier, but doesnt ignoring the system make the elephant in the room even bigger?  Personally, most peoples need here to justify themselves kinda proves that the tiers are extremely prevalent in every city.

Robk:

I have to agree with you mike695ca, or it may suggest that a lot of people here actually suffer from a little more insecurity than they are letting on. 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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donnie3857:

ok, sad"I don't know" is my answer.  I really didn't notice that there was a "Tier" system for expats.

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Shifu

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It's interesting how the Chinese overrate working for the government, which I'm sure is a corruption-filled extravaganza for Chinese foreign service officers but other than the ability to use the diplomatic channel at the airport it's not THAT great a job (it's a good job no doubt) for someone from a normal country.

 

I think from the Chinese there are two forces at work looking down on foreigners. (remember that 71% of chinese polled measure success on the things they own) One is disdain, looking at a foreigner making 10,000 RMB per month and noting it's less than half the US national average. (therefore they are a loser as a foreigner) The second is jealousy/resentment, that even though they may be a loser by their own standard they still make more (and have it easier) than me/my children/my countrymen. Either one or both might be present.

Scandinavian:

Government jobs in China are brilliant. It may be that it sucks to sit an move papers from one pile to another for a living, but you have life long pay, some level of medical insurance, possibly free housing etc. Many government jobs have the perk of being a good place to harvest hongbao for side income, and what better way to exploit the system than from the inside. 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

Oh yeah I get completely why they put govt. jobs at the top. From their own experience they might assume that it would be even better in a developed country! Sadly for our friends at the consulates it's not the case. I'm not saying it's not a good job with some decent salary and benefits, but it's nearly what it means here.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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donnie3857:

If an FT works for 6,000 RMB a month and 10 hours a  week then he is making the equivalent of 4,000 dollars per month on a 40 hour work week. (assuming the exchange rate is 6:1) That teacher also gets housing and pays negligible taxes if any.  I'd say that teacher does pretty well.

10 years 12 weeks ago
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MissA:

Interesting. In China I made 12,000 as an ESL teacher (granted, I got perks on top of the salary) and saved more than I do now as a corporate trainer on an average (almost to the cent) Australian salary. MUCH more, in fact - although my hours are lower in my home country, which seems a reversal of the trend. 

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Shifu

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so i am rated 3 now

 

actually what i heart was only

oh you are a teacher, which a down voice and OH you are not a teacher, with a surprised voice

pretty much the same as when i say: "I am not american" seems they dont like americans, dunno why lol

royceH:

They lurrrve​ Americans.   They hate America.  They love America.  They hate America.  They love America.  And so on like that.....

 

10 years 12 weeks ago
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i would guess my position is 5 or 6, but i do run an import / export on the side and i retired early before i came to china, my teaching and business are like hobbies i enjoy because ive done more travel than most politicians and salesmen, after a while it gets boring also.

some rich kids sometimes make snide remarks about not having an i phone but thats a choice, no insurance for the phone here and when you drop a phone on tile and concrete everywhere in china, you have to buy another one, not a practical option, dont like wasting money, no matter how much i have. this society is in the materialistic phase at every age level, most people over 40, stop thinking about objects they will never have and enjoy life except here, i suppose ranking people by their occupation is common everywhere, blue collar, white collar, grease monkey, gopher, etc. i have never paid attention to this criticism, most high income snobs are in debt up the ass and stay home on friday nights and i am having a good steak and a bottle of wine for new years in hong kong with no debt, living good is the best revenge.
yours truly
a southern redneck conservative,

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I guess I would be a 3rd tier foreigner as I do scientific research. That being said, English training schools are EVERYWHERE in China. If ESL teachers are such low-class workers, why are they in such demand? Parents often drop small truckloads of rmb for this type of training. I think the work one does is always top tier as long as what you are doing is meaningful to you. Educating young mind in a foreign and somewhat hostile environment? Yup, that's tier 1 in my book. 

dom87:

are you chris by any chance? Just wonder, a former collegue of mine just this nickname masque

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without reading any more than the question.....I am TOP TIER , in small town

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I am God

 

Tier 0

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Am I the only one who likes smaller cities? I really hated Beijing and Shanghai, although Guangzhou was awesome.

dom87:

shanghai sucks, loved Guangzhou. Actually dunno why

10 years 12 weeks ago
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mike695ca:

guangzhou is the cats ass. completly agree

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Shifu

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In response to mike695ca's prodding of the question. I'm a tier 2, working for a big international company. I think he's right a lot of people don't want to answer either way.

 

I agree with RobK's comment that we are too quick to judge the Chinese for being defensive but then come up with our own defenses when our value is questioned.

coineineagh:

and you can trust expatlife26 to "grudgingly" ascribe to the rigid hierarchical system, now that he happens to be on a high enough tier. On paper. He has to work his ass off to stay on that tier, but I suppose it's better than being incompetent and getting the position from daddy like most Chinese. Take pride in your achievements for what they're worth. I only hope your dignity doesn't always need to float on those you look down upon. One might argue that you created a whole blog in "defensiveness" of your tireless efforts to be near the top of the facesaving crowd.

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in china, they tell kids to care about what people think of you so very very much. without it, chinese facesaving would disappear. fortunately, they taught me about the usefulness of crying over spilt milk, as well as sticks and stones. just be glad that we "low tier" immigrants are not afflicted with this societal rigidity every waking moment. on thescale of being able to enjoy life, chinese are all very low tier.

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I'm either A+ or #7.

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A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77