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Q: What was it like teaching in China in the early 2000s?
I met a guy in Hong Kong from Australia who said he had a bachelors degree and came to China to teach. Because of his qualification, he was made head of the faculty. The thing is, there would have been no way to check if he actually did have a psychology degree. I'm sure he did as he was one of a small percentage of foreigners I've met in China who spoke clearly and didn't give off the impression of having some kind of inferiority complex. I've met a lot of middle-aged, wide-eyed old guys from America and Canada in Hong Kong who claim visa problems in the Mainland. Three have said they advise on creating curriculums for Peking University. Yeah right!
I have been teaching in China for the last 2 years. I have an honours degree in English literature, a second major in philosophy, and a separate postgraduate qualification in history. I did a celta before coming over to China. None of these qualifications prepared me for what I subsequently encountered... A knowledge and professionalism drought would be putting it mildly.
Some of the foreigners I've worked with leave me speculating that it's likely that they were forklift drivers and dunny scrubbers in their home countries. Many of them can barely spell and they certainly can't teach. The Chinese are starting to notice this, but the last university I worked at was a complete racket which took the students' money after promising them a standard of accommodation which was far from met. They brought some of the biggest idiots over from South America to teach Spanish. The funniest thing of all is that half of them were Brazilian and couldn't speak Spanish. One of these guys was a complete arsekisser who would do practically anything to be allowed to work even though he had no degree. It was certainly obvious that he had no education when you listen to him speak. The administration didn't care. It was all about bums on seats for them. There is a school on the other side of town which teaches Spanish and is creaming their clocks, but this college won't stop trying because some of the shareholders are "highly ranked citizens" and don't want to lose face admitting that they suck at running a school. There was a silver lining to this cloud though. One new teacher brought over from Columbia by a very prominent shareholder was found to have no degree and had to leave.
If the current teaching conditions are an improvement on the early 2000s, I'd hate to imagine what things were like in the past before the new visa requirements were put in place.
'Add-it':
'I have been teaching in China for the last 2 years. I have an honours degree in English literature, a second major in philosophy, and a separate postgraduate qualification in history. I did a celta before coming over to China.'
No disrespect to Native English teachers, buTT.....why do you think, majority of the schools in China require/demand Native English teacher on their job adverts?
Shining_brow:
Pronunciation, slang, collocations, vocabulary, fluency...
But those are all academic reasons.
The real reason is 'face' - "ooh look, we have someone from America....OOOOHHHHHHH!"
But yeah, - there's too much emphasis put on that one thing alone... and not enough attention on what's really important :(
icnif77:
I slightly disagree!
If you would hire Chinese foreign teacher at your school in Oz, how would you know her/his 'pronunciation, and other things you mention' are on par, if your Chinese is, let say 'passive or lower'?
That's how I see it in China. They can judge your pronunciation is on par only by your Native English passport.
Put it this way, my first job here was in 2002, I met the head of a school in Yangshuo who asked if I had any experience, to which I replied, "I have no experience, am poorly educated, partially dyslexic and I think you would be irresponsible to hire me." He looked confused and unimpressed with my honesty and asked me where I was from. I told him London and started the next day. Before then I worked a forklift (when I wasn't scrubbing dunnies).
laowaigentleman:
I'm not denigrating any profession here. I drove forklifts too, but I studied towards working in a vocation where I don't to listen to fat blokes who stink of fags and cheap beer brag about sexual conquests that didn't actually happen.
I once smashed an entire shelf with seven pallet loads of house paint on it. I worked through a temping agency. I got a job at a steel distributor after that and never had any problems after that.
It cost me $80US to go to forklift training and another $70 for the license through Crown Lift Trucks.
I worked with some proper knuckle draggers though. Not as bad as here, but pretty bad.
mArtiAn:
I'm not being sensitive, I was joking, never driven a forklift in my life. Worked plenty of warehouses though, that's what I did before moving here, and yeh, there's no fun in working all hours in joyless surroundings for some ignorant f**k who's not worth the steam off your piss. That's why I left in the first place.
laowaigentleman:
It's a shame there's no irony key on my laptop. I didn't catch on.
Great minds think alike 
royceH:
Laoweigentleman....Martian's witty reply, based on humour, was as obvious as the Pope's Catholicism. I don't really think you and he think alike.
laowaigentleman:
Royce, you've come to the right country if you like to jump onto bandwagons.
At least something's working out for you.
And the problem of being a forklift driver and dunny scrubber is ????
icnif77:
'....
in my mirror':
'I have been teaching in China for the last 2 years. I have an honours degree in English literature, a second major in philosophy, and a separate postgraduate qualification in history. I did a celta before coming over to China.'
I get your point about unqualified people being given good opportunities in China.
BUT...
First of all, you're coming across as very pretentious,
secondly, why shouldn't a person deserve a chance (or second chance) ?
laowaigentleman:
I don't understand why you're trying to make the employment of people as university professors who've never completed a dissertation into a social justice issue.
Of course people deserve a second chance. I didn't graduate from high school. It was too boring. I left when I was sixteen and worked various mindless and repetitious jobs. My country had almost full employment throughout the late 90s and early 2000s so I had to work with some complete fools.
Here's the problem though. You say they deserve a second chance. That's fine. I agree. Why didn't they go and study? I have to pay for my student loan and save for a house.
While you're on the issue of fairness, how fair is it for Chinese families to have to work, borrow, scrimp and save to send their child to a tertiary institution which has a foreigner show up once a week to talk a load of nonsense, make lame jokes and then throw on a movie? Many families know that a good foreign teacher is the only escape from being taught Chinglish to pass an exam which is all sound and fury signifying nothing.
Don't be an enabler. Think of the people who're really suffering as a consequence of the lack of responsibility among the schools here. I'll never make excuses for them or the crap foreign teachers as long as poor families are being ripped off so a bunch of dickhead administrators with guanxi can fill the school parking lot with BMWs and Mercedes Benzs.
Englteachted:
So foreign teachers are the problem with Chinese education system?
Why must you save for a house? If you must save for a house, why teach in China?
dharma86:
Alrite I give up... your contradicting yourself to bits.
Anyway just because I have a bachelor's degree doesn't mean my spoken English is better than anyone else.
Well who went to university and had to attend oral English classes eh ?
What exactly is the point you are trying to make?
There are people teaching English in China who are excellent teachers despite having no 'qualification'
There are teachers who tick all the correct boxes regarding requirements yet they suck in the classroom.
China is all about face first.
you yourself said in a recent post that 600 students are causing you stress due to their behaviour - so this is China, not (insert European/North American/Australia/NZ country of your choice). Adapt.
mArtiAn:
I agree, quite simply in a country that has limited resources in terms of qualified teachers, beggars can't be choosers. When I started teaching my approach was 'if I'm the best student in the class I'm in a position to guide the others' and I've worked conscientiously from day one to do just that. I've met highly qualified teachers who were pricks I wouldn't let train a dog. As far as I'm concerned if you speak the language, are willing to find the potential in every student, and have patience and imagination, you are able to teach.
laowaigentleman:
Believe me, the teaching training certificate was practically useless in actually training me to be a teacher, and for the first 6 to 8 months I was appalling, but there were some occasions where I accidentally created a good lesson and executed the explanation of it.
There are other places that crap teachers can go.
Also, anyone would have been stressed if they were left with a huge pile of kids and didn't have any assistance from their regular teacher in controlling them for the first few weeks. I was given a teaching plan and I had to abandon it while I worked on class discipline for 3 entire weeks! I was terrified they'd make an issue of this. Many places do thanks to the whole face-first phenomenon where schools will hire a foreign teacher and once the realization hits that it costs a lot of money, they start applying all kinds of unreasonable expectations every chance they talk to you. It was looking like this would be the case for at least a week Thankfully they didn't actually do this because I took the initiative and raised the problems in a constructive way, deploying a lot of humility as I discussed every aspect of the discipline problems.
I don't know if you know, but safety in charter schools is paramount. There is a little boy with downs syndrome in one of my classes and one morning he climbed inside of a big pile of those makeshift beds the little children nap in at lunch time. Once he was in, the kids pulled a blanket over him and started trying to drag him onto the floor. I had to spend ten minutes with the class teacher talking about what happened and this caused me to be late for the next period. Female Chinese teachers in particular are notorious gossips, and they had been acting very cold to me because I get paid "so much" and I was three minutes late. Pathetic.
I did suck when I first came, but I adapted. Certain things are beyond the adaptation of human beings, like intermittent piercing screeches from multiple boys all across the classroom.
Having said this, there was a learning curve and I surmounted it. The CELTA is good for wiping my bum if I run out of dunny paper in terms of controlling a mob, but it did teach me a lot of useful techniques to explain the functions behind our language. People make the assumption that teaching your native language is easier than teaching physics or economics. Whoever says that isn't doing it right.
Plenty of foreigners have been in China for years and haven't been able to surmount any learning curve because they don't try and they know they don't have to.
I know that if I went home and was shit at my job, I'd be sitting home on the dole waiting for some discount pizza coupons to come in the mail.
Englteachted:
So someone who can't cut it as a teacher complaining about others. Haha
laowaigentleman:
@eng
Your comprehension skills are in the pits, dude. Seriously.
No wonder you're worried about a crackdown.
sorrel:
to the OP:
what exactly is the point you are trying to make?
do you feel under-appreciated because FT's with fewer qualifications have higher salaries than you?
Granted, a CELTA does not prepare you for the reality of teaching in China especially as this method of teaching requires the students to be more active in taking part in speaking, something they are resistant at the start.
Believe me, you are not unique in thinking that the education system in China is Victorian to say the least, but railing against other "less qualified" FT's is pointless.
Why should I care about what other teachers do as long as I know I am doing my best and improving as a teacher every day?
From my perspective, it is all about how much you care to do the best you can in the job despite the challenges that are there on a daily basis.
Chinese teachers gossip? So what 
"I have been teaching in China for the last 2 years. I have an honours degree in English literature, a second major in philosophy, and a separate postgraduate qualification in history. "
I have a few questions. Is an honours degree the same as a Bachelor Degree? Id a 'postgraduate qualification' the same as a Master's Degree? Do you know that Portuguese is the official language of Brazil?
You on your high perch is looking down on others, 'creaming their clocks,' should be'cleaning'
Notice that at the same time the government is trashing foreign English teachers that we have these accounts coming on here supporting that cause.
Over 90%of the teachers that were legal were qualified. The overwhelming majority of expats working on family visas were damn good teachers and had degrees.
Posters bragging about their lack of Education and experience and posters claiming that everyone they met were not qualified, I question their motives and timing.
laowaigentleman:
Do you mean in terms of practical value? Hardly. Australia and New Zealand have a one year honours program for graduates which you must take if you have any intention of doing a masters degree. It's like asking what a political science or sociology degree is worth. It depends on your intentions in using it.
Schools across Asia do take qualifications into consideration, but I'm inclined to agree with many people here that it's probably just pretentiousness as many people I went to high school with were lauded by school teachers as being brilliant. One of these people went to Oxford and came back to join a nutty socialist/environmentalist political party filled with all kinds of other people who couldn't hold down a regular job. Brilliant people become physicists, doctors and engineers. I'm just a teacher. But at least I did the training.
Also, I know that Brazil is a Portuguese speaking country. Chinese universities are employing Brazilians to teach Spanish. They think the two languages are similar. My Brazilian friend, who is qualified to teach, can actually speak Spanish. Many just think they can. They'll trying to kill two birds with one stone by offering both languages and once they employ someone who can speak one of the languages, and if a Spanish speaking or Portuguese speaking teacher has even just the bare rudiments of the other language, they can be employed to teach both.
It's actually kind of funny. I shouldn't help them.
Pedantry over banal quotations isn't necessary, easy now, cowboy!
I've never thrown that quote out before, so if I ever use it again, I'll remember what you said. Much obliged.
laowaigentleman:
Tell me more about the government trashing english teachers? I don't listen to the stories.
I haven't played the CCTV drinking game yet either...
If the 90% figure is true, then none of us have anything to fear.
I'm trying to be fair minded and polite this week. I don't look down on other people, but I will always stick up for the little guy. The little guy in this case is the taxi driver who has to borrow from multiple sources to send his daughter to a training school or university. It must be shit having to raise kids here as a regular Chinese person.
Take it easy, I don't mean to attack competent teachers who've proven their worth, but I think future expats who come here ought to mean some kind of minimum standard.
I might be a master butcher, but that doesn't mean you should let me loose in an operating theatre with a scalpel just because I might just wing it nicely.
Englteachted:
Two long responses and you did not answer the question. Do you have a Bachelors Degree?
I have tutored 2 students to pass the IELTS for those postgrad cert programs (but in Canada) and neither student had a degree.
So I guess that's my answer.
Englteachted:
"The little guy in this case is the taxi driver who has to borrow from multiple sources to send his daughter to a training school or university."
Do you know how much taxi drivers make? They are not borrowing money. And so you think the problem with China's education system is FTs?
If the 'little guy' cared, they would not just want someone white teaching their child English. They would actually judge a teacher by their ability and not by their skin color. Training schools force good teachers to use outdated and ridiculous lessons. Chinese English teachers are poorly trained so all they end up doing is teaching chinglish.
Englteachted:
" I went to high school with were lauded by school teachers as being brilliant. One of these people went to Oxford and came back to join a nutty socialist/environmentalist political party filled with all kinds of other people who couldn't hold down a regular job."
What the fuck does that have to do with being a good teacher? Good teachers must all have the same political leanings? Your posts are full of BS. So many people you went to high school with are teaching in Asia? BS You're making this up as you go along.
Some of the best teachers I had in college were arrogant assholes out of the classroom.
Englteachted:
"They'll trying to kill two birds with one stone by offering both languages and once they employ someone who can speak one of the languages, and if a Spanish speaking or Portuguese speaking teacher has even just the bare rudiments of the other language, they can be employed to teach both."
For someone who is knocking other's ability you sure make a lot of silly mistakes 'they're' not 'they'll'.
Now you are contradicting yourself. You said they were hired to teach Spanish. But they were hired to teach Portuguese and some are used to also teach Spanish?
Shining_brow:
ET, you're comprehension skills really need improving!
A) doing the honours program REQUIRES having successfully completed the bachelor's degree (although, no Laowai - honours is not a requirement for doing postgrad - maybe it depends on the discipline and uni).
B) he said they had Brazilians (speakers of Portuguese) teaching Spanish... while the two languages are similar, they aren't the same. I don't see any contradiction in anything said about this!
80% of statistics are made up on the spot!
90% of legal teachers are qualified.... with real qualifications?? Why isn't it 100%? And where exactly do you get this figure from?
Englteachted:
Shining: from my experience. Also I have tutored students to attend schools that offered those Honors certs programs (but in Canada) they stated that a BA/BS was required but they did not ask for proof. And I asked this poster a direct question.
I don't live in a big city, but I already met a couple weirdos in my little tier IV. I don't know how bad the problem is, but China has troble attracting talent.
On the flipside, even the western dummies that do the jobs they are unqualified for, still stand a chance to improve locals' English, because the level here is below abysmal.
Add to that Confucian style misunderstanding of what education is, and you'll have to admit that any knuckledragger who at least finished primary school can teach in China.
Supply and demand - teaching in China is just a money industry.
I'm going out for drinks now and don't have time to read the half dozen or so responses above but I just wanna say one thing to the poster.
You really do come across as a pretentious wanker. Nothing wrong with being a wanker.
laowaigentleman:
Whatever cheers you up while you're in the dive with the dirges, mate.
To the poster, I know you're not trying to be pretentious, and only adding your pedigree as a basis for a juxtaposition. However, I will say that comparing teachers and whether or not they are good teachers, is irrelevant. It all comes down to the student, the parents, and what they actually want to achieve. Quantifiable results, or just Face?.
I've been teaching and managing two schools for the past 8 months in China. Actually owning the school has given me a different perspective on teaching. When I first arrived here, I had dream of being this English Superhero and all of my students speaking well and learning fast and having great futures. But in reality, I have learned, that most of the students don't want to learn English, and some of the parents only send their child so that they are not at home and can be "somewhere learning something." Chinese parents don't even know English, let alone how to teach a new language, yet they question me when I told them I'm no longer using a textbook to teach. The ones who actually really care about their child learning to speak English, question why the new words or phrases I taught their child 6 days ago, they can't say them now, but the other students can. When I ask them, at home when was the last time their child opened their notebook and audio recorders that I gave them and sat down and listened and studied our last lesson, they look at me like I'm crazy and wonder why on earth they would need to do that, given the fact that they only see me once a week for 3 hours.
Yet, they all keep giving me money and sending their child, because at the end of the day, all they really care about is being able to tell their friends and other people, that their child studies at the most expensive English school in the city and has an American teacher. It doesn't bother me though anymore, I stopped taking it so personally. There are a few of my students who actually want to learn English and want to make something of themselves, and for those few students, I will go out of my way to help them, even after I leave China.
laowaigentleman:
Thank you for stating your understanding of my intentions. It isn't nice to come under fire, but I am sick of the shit teachers all over China. They give people like you a bad name.
I had the same outlook when I first came here also. I've haven't given up on the idea that I can make a difference. If I thought that, I'd simply go back home and train as an accountant.
I take your point about them continuing to pay for reasons of face, but I'll never go to the next step and say it's ok for people who can't potentially make a difference to the children's lives to milk the vanity and credulity of the parents. That's what the school instructors and government officials tell themselves when they put poor families in debt over all of the other subjects besides English lessons in order to be able to lie straight in the bed at night.
Having said this, the parents of the kids at my school are quite well educated. Things can change fast, and Chinese people seem to marry younger than westerners. A lot can change.
The five year Beijing proposal is ridiculous by the way. There's a recipe for guaranteed exposure to an array of jaded old people who're only working in the job because they can't do anything else.
This site is rather bemusing because I'm pretty much the most unpretentious person you'll meet. If I'm broke, I'll tell you and I don't exaggerate my salary to my family and friends back home.
Petty insults don't matter because I'm from NZ, where having expectations that a person ought to try to better themselves and challenge the status-quo leads to very quick putdowns and abuse. It just means I'm doing something constructive, however insignificant. 
xinyuren:
As I helped to start my wife's school, we encountered exactly the same mindset. We decided to reject parents who didn't support their child's learning and those who were only interested in passing a test. We wanted to devote more time to helping children who really want to learn English. But as you said, learning English is usually not their real objective.
laowaigentleman:
@ xin. How did you go about distinguishing those who supported their children from those who didn't?
This loser doesn't have a BA/BS but is trying to call other teachers out.
It was great back then, there was no bunch of self-entitled and pretentious farts to call other teachers bad names.
If you think that Chinese themselves care about education then you are blind my friend. You have been hired to be a foreign face and give undeserved value to your school, so stop thinking that you are on a sacred mission to educate the Chinese.
laowaigentleman:
I've got better things to do than dance in front of retards all day.
Don't you all think you're wasting your lives and selling your integrity if that's the case?
Pretentious? Please. Blow it out your arse and head to the pub with the other plonkers with chips on their shoulders. It looks like you're indulging in the same kind of behaviour you're condemning in the first place.
I've met bogan alcoholic retards who kiss arse and get promoted ahead of people who genuinely have something to offer. The people here see the way these dropkicks behave after they've got like three or four beers under their belt and then think we're all like that.
There are lots of schools which don't think the way you describe them anymore.
You seem on target with many of the dance-in-front-of-spoiled-children crowd. But you forget to add about their girlfriends. Most of these types are dating girls far out of their leagues in terms of physical attraction (remember: people tend to be attracted to people of their own physical type, so a skinny pretty girl with an ugly man has something on her mind), and ironically I find these girlfriends are not normal Chinese but are usually power-connected people, shall we say. Apparently being power-connected in China is not all that satisfying as the girlfriends of these "teachers" obviously have something else on their mind in going with them. This is my summary of about 10 of these types, YMMV.
Does this title have anything to do with the question?
Don't think much has changed. Same discussion / arguments / flaming back then.
I'm deaf, and I still taught oral English as late as 2013. It gets better: apparently I was the best teacher they ever had. Granted, when I'm not lazy, and when I'm not having an allergy flare up or going through a cold, I can actually speak clearly.
Furthermore, I actually put a lot of effort into ensuring that students were actually taught useful things while still having fun. I studied the role of an English teacher for 6 months and, despite having no degree, no experience, and no qualifications whatsoever, I did pretty good.
Now that I'm done defending myself, I'm really disappointed in the quality of English anything in China.
TLDR: Nothing has changed.
