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Posts: 115

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Q: What's with all the weird aggro towards English teachers?

OK, I've met a couple of dodgy guys who are basically always stoned or drunk and wondered how the f**k anyone gave them a job with kids, but I've found some people are really rude to people who teach English. One of my best mates here is teaching in a kindergarten-he was a teaching assistant in Britain but finally decided not to go into teaching in the UK because it's 60 percent admin bs and he's saving up to do a masters in education so he can work in international schools. He works really really hard, loves his job and has a really good relationship with his school- he has good pay and good holidays and the kids and parents love him. He's in a great situation, but he is wary now of telling people what he does, because al ot of other expats seem to be looking down on him, making generalisations and assuming that he's some kind of waster. I've noticed how people react differently to him and me when we talk about our jobs (I'm a run of the mill IT guy who is pretty 'meh' about my job).

 

 

And most people who are being snobby have really boring jobs, I met this guy doing an accounting internship (fully funded by his parents) who kind of had a go at my friend in a bar- why do people think they can be rude to people based on their job? 

 

Sorry to rant, this just really pissed me off.

9 years 15 weeks ago in  General  - China

 
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Shifu

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You can probably thank the quality of schools in China who hire the foreign teachers for that. It's no secret that pretty much any white person can get a teaching job here. I was in the system for only a year, but just from reading these forums the stereotype of the "waster" English teacher in China is almost tangible. I salute the real teachers who have to put up with that. 

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9 years 15 weeks ago
 
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Shifu

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I felt that way too during my one full term as a teacher, that everybody was looking down on me but honestly I don't think people do look down on it so much as it's just not really super interesting or impressive.

 

It's like I meet somebody that works at starbucks at home i'm not gonna think that person is a POS or anything but i'm not gonna be like "wow! how'd you pull that one off!" ESL teaching is kinda similar in that sense. If you want admiration and recognition from others it's just not for you.

 

It is kinda just something you can show up and do if you're from the west...and that is what it is, good and bad. You might be meh about your IT job but there is still this impression that you have some kinda specific skill to it. You either went to school for it or put some time into learning it. I am positive I couldn't just show up in your job one day and do it...I wouldn't have a clue and neither would most people. Fair or not you get respect for that.

 

Teacher in china is great for a job with no barriers to entry for western people, but cause there are no barriers to entry you'll get the good with the bad.

Your friend absolutely sounds like he has his shit together and is doing the right thing. Get that masters get qualified and he's in good shape. But no, until he latches on with an international school he probably isn't going to really impress anybody with his job.

 

That doesn't mean people have the right to be rude to him (especially interns working at their own expense!) but I bet with a few exceptions it's his own insecurity making him think people are looking down at him and not people being directly rude. Not being impressed is not the same thing as looking down at somebody. But if you're the type of person who craves recognition than YOU will make yourself miserable teaching.

Robk:

I totally agree with expatlife26. 

 

Teaching English in China doesn't really shout that you overcame a huge hurdle other than surviving and making the trip in China. 

 

But if he keeps pushing and gets into a really good international school, then going through the scoffs and upward raised noses will be worth it. 

 

To be honest, most people are worthless because they don't utilize their own potential and then try to pull down others that do. If he is an awesome teacher... he should shout it in those snobs' face and tell them to check back on him in about three years. 

 

He shouldn't hide from their reactions... use it as motivation. 

9 years 14 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

Right it just doesn't say anything about you.

 

Now I totally hated being a teacher and it FELT at the time like everybody was looking down on me...but looking back with a clear head I can't remember a single incident of somebody ever actually aggressively putting me down or talking shit. I was 22-23 at that time haha so I guess nobody really would have expected me to have some great career going.

 

Nah...I think I was just insecure about it. And i'm glad I was because i make way more now and ESL was a waste of my ambition and skill set. 

 

It's probably healthier to think of ESL as just not opening doors for you instead of slamming them shut in your face. The beautiful girl you tell youre a teacher and doesn't seem to care probably isn't going and laughing to her friends about the trashy ESL teacher that DARED to chat her up. And in the job market nobody sees ESL on your resume and thinks "oh god! Not another one of these losers!" they just think "doesn't have the skills we're looking for".  It felt like that though, at least to me as much as it's embarrassing to admit.

 

But no, this isn't middle school. It's kinda telling in the OPs story that the person doing the looking down is an unpaid intern working at their own expense. Somebody who doesn't really have a great identity on their own save for potential. So, to them they need to cover that their income is zero by harping on how it will probably be pretty good in the future. "hey i may not draw a salary at all, but at least I didn't settle for esl" kinda thing. That's not a healthy way to think either.

 

Nor is it healthy to assume that every successful business guy must be patrick bateman either. That's just wishful thinking the other way.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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They are just jealous because FTs make more money than them while working half the time. FTs who have been here for years, built a network of relations and have access to the best teaching jobs end up making more than professional expats. Let alone those who opened training centers or schools and make even more.

There seem to be two types of foreigners in the ESL industry in China, those who are paid peanuts and make up the majority, and a minority who caught an opportunity and make really big money, no middle ground.

expatlife26:

I think youre reading too much into it...I dont think most expats professionals and business owners are jealous of teachers or look down on anybody. The ones that do are the same % as the % of scumbag english teachers. They just stand out.

 

It's just that it doesn't come off as impressive. Fair or not somebody says they're an engineer you assume that they must be able to do some advanced stuff. Somebody says they started a successful business it's like "wow no kidding? good for you!" It's a plus in their accomplishments column. ESL teacher is just kind of a neutral. It's not so much that it's looked down at as its just not admired. And for a certain kind of personality who craves achievement and recognition that's almost just as bad.

9 years 15 weeks ago
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dongbeiren:

I disagree with the idea that FT's either earn peanuts or a ton. Sure, the majority earn very little (say 15k or less in Tier 1 cities) or 12k or less in smaller cities. And yes, those who open their own schools can make a bunch if successful. But I'd say there are definitely those who fall in the middle - who manage to find a decent paying gig and then work their connections to find other profitable opportunities. A lot of these people make 2-3 times more than the typical FT but still less than the average engineer or company exec.

9 years 15 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@dong

 

The problem is that English teachers earn much more and can teach the subject far better than even the elite Chinese schools. I teach at an elite school where the Chinese English teachers write Chinglish.

 

If I could simply register my credentials and start my own business I could provide my students with a far better service than anyone else can give them here and I wouldn't be lining the pockets of some klepto-gerontocrat who wants to be some kind of pedagogical entrepreneur when he's as thick as two short planks.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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Robk:

@Eorthisio

 

The money is in doing tutoring or starting up your own business. A guy took advantage of the dry English teacher pool in this city and started up his own business. 

 

He was teaching like a mad man but I doubt he put too much effort into the actual classes. Anyway, in the span of a few years... he went from broke joke to buying an apartment in this city, Harbin, Sanya and back home in the U.S. fully paid-off. Now get this... 

 

The rest of the foreigner teachers in this city make about 4-6k RMB per month at the absolute most and are not allowed to do side jobs tutoring.

 

So there is some truth to your statements. I guess it is more about crossing the "just a teacher" threshold into a type of businessman.  

9 years 14 weeks ago
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Eorthisio:

Robk → Yup, I know quite a few cases like your guy, people who opened training centers in wealthy areas devoid of such centers but full of rich Chinese peasants and their fat brats. One of them was like "It's so easy to take the money from those people".

9 years 14 weeks ago
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Shifu

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to be fair 80% look down on the job itself not the person who is forced to be the monkey. its no secret that most dont teach anything. Those who teach in a real school are mostly not looked down on. The biggest reason is that most didnt learn anything to do the teaching job - those who studied to be a teacher end up in international schools with good money

laowaigentleman:

Keep in mind that these international schools are taking advantage of a skewed market by ripping off parents desperate for their children not to have to rote learn Master Kong's rather trite musings and sing songs about Chairman Mao.

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Shifu

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I'd say there are several reasons for this:

 

1. A lot of English teachers deserve to be looked down on. No, not most but there are more than a few bad apples who come to China for their 6 month or year adventure to binge drink, fool local girls into sleeping with them , and live paycheck to paycheck with nothing to show for it despite having a good salary by local standards.

 

2. A lot of people are insecure, snobbish  judgmental pricks. So people in a position perceived as better than English teacher will gain a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment by placing themselves higher on the expat hierarchy. Most truly successful people don't fall into this category as they are too busy with their own lives to care about the status of English teachers. It's no different from people looking down on people who make less than them back home. And English teachers are generally the  lowest earners among expats in China so it's easy to shit on them.

 

3.  As Eorthisio mentioned, some English teachers are quite successful and make more than some professional expats. These professional expats get pissed off that someone perceived to be lower than them on the hierarchy is actually making more money than they are with a less stressful life. So they revert to the "English teachers are losers" mentality to justify themselves.

 

4.  The work of English teachers can be humiliating. There are plenty of dancing monkey teachers who are basically poorly trained clowns (usually because the school makes them teach this way). Jumping around in a kindergarten while little kids beat you with balloons and punch you in the nuts is not exactly dignifying work, especially when being  paid peanuts to do it.

 

 

5. English teachers are perceived to be transients and such people are generally looked down on anywhere they go. Often English teachers move from city to city and country to country frequently without putting down roots. They generally don't own a lot of assets like houses, cars, furniture and financial assets. Fair or not, such people are often looked down upon anywhere, no matter what their line of work is.

 

Should people look down on others? Generally, no. And certainly not because of their line of work. People often make assumptions when finding out that someone is an English teacher and those assumptions are often untrue. English teachers are a mixed bag of people who came to China for a variety of reasons.

laowaigentleman:

You know who we should look down upon? Talentless wankers who speculate on residential property and people who use guanxi to get into jobs they're unable to perform properly.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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dongbeiren:

Completely agree - a lot of wealth accumulated in China is through illegitimate means. Lots of useless rich people here. 

9 years 14 weeks ago
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Governor

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I sympathize with him as I was in the same situation before.  People have given very reasonable answers already but I'd like to add that a lot of foreigners who come here are either very insecure or will be after living here a few months.  Lots of others I met are very ambitious, well travelled and educated. Those people wouldn't tend to appreciate someone teaching Engish for reasons already stated.  The normal, down to earth, humble but emotionally stable crowd are few. That and the Chinese culture that one is placed in that loves to compare people and puts a value on a person according to how much they earn or their guanxi makes this an ideal situation for such feelings to come out.

laowaigentleman:

I'm content with being a teacher here, although China is extremely un-stimulating intellectually. Especially if you get stuck with a bunch of fools who have an idea for a business and want your input (shudder).

 

I make up for this by taking advantage of all of the free time I have outside of teaching, where I can work on learning French and German, reading English novels, as well as work on writing stories and poems for children.

 

People who live vicariously through their "work" are the living dead.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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Choosing to teach English in China is as honourable a job as any other I can think of.

That is, as long as it's a real job and the person doing it treats it as real.  

There is quite a lot of diversity in this field and this can cater to a wide range of players.

Sure, job satisfaction can tend to wane after a time but tell me a profession where that isn't the case.

It's art for art sake, fer chrisake.

For those of you out there who might have a fat head about what you do, I would suggest you get over yourself.  The journey of life is a long and winding road and there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Some of the more interesting conversations I've had have been with cat skinners.  Certainly moreso than with fat heads who generally only seem happy stroking themselves.

 

laowaigentleman:

There's nothing worse than being stuck with some douchebag rattling off jargon about management techniques.

 

In the past, chinless wonders were "sent down" from Oxford and Cambridge to work in commerce. Something which has always been looked down upon by edified people.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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Anyone stupid enough to bring a business to China where the government and business environment is so corrupt and kleptocratic deserves to be looked down on.

 

I take a leaf out of HL Mencken's book. Business people are 3rd and 4th rate boors who spend 90% of their time talking out of their arses and stroking each other.

 

C students work for B students, A students teach. If the average person had 10 more IQ points, most businesses would never get off the ground as they very rarely provide anything intelligent and secure people actually need. Just tat for fools.

 

I am doing a business management and accounting degree right now so when my girlfriend graduates I can get a secure job back home. Most of the stuff I'm reading in the papers is frankly imbecilic. My real degree is in history and literature and it was much more stimulating to engage with than this empty jargon and obscurantist psycho-babble that impresses shit heads so much.

 

Still, it's shit heads who go to the mall all of the time, not the sophisticated.

royceH:

Downvotes.....weishenma?

Arseholes probably.

Whatever, here's an up for you.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

Upvote for getting your masters. I'm doing the same thing. Are you doing it online through a western uni or at a school here?

9 years 14 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

but downvote for saying that anybody who runs a business here is stupid. That's nonsense. All the highest earning expats I know here own businesses. If you told one of them they're stupid for having a business here they'd laugh you out of the room.

 

Just gotta be smart about it. Good way to do it run your billing out of HK just transfer up amounts to cover your payroll and purchasing accounts here.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@ expat.

 

Can't please everyone, but I'm prepared to go further than this and say that most business people are pretty second rate and the dumbing down of western society in conjunction with the commercialization of universities has meant that the kinds of people who are naturally destined for a job standing in front of a conveyor belt can now go to business school. Hell, my old university's business faculty allowed a grade of 45% to be considered a pass.

 

I went to high school with a guy who got 37% in School Certificate English, the old system. His father pulled some strings and got him a job at a bank and he's now an investment analyst at the bank of Scotland. Perhaps he makes the rest of them feel better about themselves, or perhaps that sort of work isn't actually very difficult. Operating a milking machine is probably more challenging.

 

I have family friends who have a business in Shanghai which they run out of New Zealand, not Hong Kong. They haven't put that much thought into their business, they just followed other people that they know. I'd dare to say this is a common occurrence with any business. Their daughter's boyfriend goes around saying that he makes $100,000US in London when it's obvious he makes about half that. They aren't smart enough to see through what he says.

 

I know these are just anecdotes, but I'm not going to take that kind of pretentiousness from people who studied the idiot major and are now working as corporate drones lying down.

 

I'm not having a dig at any entrepreneur who has chosen to set something up here either. If they had a good plan and it doesn't simply involve scamming peasants for an "educational" product then I don't begrudge them anything. But if they're going to go around acting like they're smarter than other people, I can tell them right now that reality is against them, the Chinese are using them and when it all goes to shit for them, I'll be the last one laughing.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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dongbeiren:

@ laowai

 

Painting all or most businesspeople as morons is pretty unfair in my opinion. Saying that makes you come across as kind of bitter that people you perceive to be worse than you are actually doing better than you in life. Sure, plenty of C students or whatever go into business but not everyone's an academic so if they can find success using whatever talent and connections they have, well good for them. I was always a top student and graduated from a very well-known university and I'll be the first to admit I have very little business acumen. So I have a respectable teaching job and plan to get a master's to pursue my education and career further. Do I look down on people who were C students at shitty universities and are making more money than me now? Not at all. In fact, I envy them in some ways and wish I had spent more time when I was younger making connections instead of studying and drinking. 

9 years 14 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@dongbeiren

 

You're looking at the problem the wrong way. Corporate debt in China is massive and it's this way for the simple reason that most of the businesses here are chutzpah. So many ventures here would have never gotten off the ground in western countries because of pesky little things like labour laws and health and safety standards. I've worked in firms where it is basically just a network of old football jocks who've managed to persuade a room of bewildered old q-tips to give them money every year and the firm's just bumbled along. The kinds of people I've worked with would make up absurd stories similar to one that Obama was told at Zhongnanhai pertaining to swimming.

 

I've made efforts myself to establish connections and not look too bored by giving away the listless expression of tedium in my eyes when some clown in his late thirties talks about his plan to make a sideways move into personnel management over the next few years and then asks me what personality type I see myself as.

 

The natural order of things is completely messed up. I don't begrudge people their money. To be honest, I'm pretty indifferent to wealth in general because there isn't that much you can buy with it anyway and I've rarely bothered concerning myself with the opinions of others anyhow.

 

I wish I could laugh at mass folly as much as this guy:

 

 http://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/murray-n-rothbard/the-joyous-libertarian/

 

Let me assure you, I'm not a bitter guy, I'm just not going to join in any circle jerk glorifying business people.

 

Birds of a feather flock together. Shit attracts shit and produces unnecessary crap for empty headed fools to purchase in cultural cysts known as malls.

 

I'm just grateful that as an English teacher I don't have to participate in any of that team building BS that corporate wankers love so much.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

That's all very interesting but I asked how you're doing your MBA program...i'm just curious if anybody is getting one from an english language program at a big university here.

 

I agree that some of the leadership courses are probably going to be someone boring...but i'll go on with an open mind. Might learn something useful.

 

I gotta ask why are you going to business school if you have so much disdain for it and the people in it? So much of corporate success is based on your ability to form relationships with others and for me...finding good mentors.

 

I'm not making a value judgment one way or the other about who is better but you're going to fail if you go in with the attitude that you think business is stupid and business people are all assholes. You're wrong about that. I'm sure there are some "wankers" out there who babble about personality types and all that, but really they'd be in the minority. And frankly if thinking that way works for them, it's not hurting anybody. And again if you find it so boring and distateful you're really barking up the wrong tree here.

 

If you want to do something more lucrative maybe think about going into sciences. You might feel that is more grounded and connected to reality than the world of business. I dunno, it just sounds like business school might be a mistake for you if you really feel that way. It's an expensive mistake too. Believe me I wouldn't be doing it just for the hell of it. It means i'm basically sacrificing the next 2 years any free time or relaxation. But I'm hoping to turn 30 with 7 years of good experience and career growth, an MBA and great earning prospects for the future. Fingers crossed I bet it'll be nice living in the US making six figures +. Business is where that level of security is. So that's where I am.

 

Frankly I think almost all jobs are kinda bullshit at this point. This isn't 1700...we're all just kinda screwing around save for doctors, farmers, and a few others. So for me why not screw around in a way that affords me to have fun outside of work and not stress about money? (at least before I went back to school too!) 

 

I personally like the kind of problem solving and math challenges that working in the financial sector affords me and maybe you will too. I sometimes get to work on some sales presentation stuff too which is usually kinda fun. Most importantly I get to work in a nice comfy building with the heat running. 

 

I mean come on it's not about a circle jerk it's just about finding ways to make your life meet your expectations.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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I was an English teacher a few years back for about three to four years. When I first got to China, the hating on English teachers wasn't there... it seemed to come into fruitation in the past 5 years (around when the Beijing Olympics were held)... not sure why. 

 

But you are right that many do look down on English teachers now. When I was teaching, one foreign guy referred to us as "the bottom of the barrel". 

 

It really depends where you live too. In smaller cities, English teachers are considered to be rich and helpful to China. When I tell Chinese people I am a designer (because I don't want to really explain what I do...) they don't really understand... they think I am one of those package designers and I only make like 2000 RMB per month lol.

 

When I explain that a UI/UX Designer is not the same, that my clients are all foreigners and I make far more than a package designer... they just don't get it.   

 

So now, I just tell them I do business and that seems to compute better with them. 

 

If he loves his job and people try to put him down for it, then it is a quick and easy sign that he is around moron. I know someone who took the same route it sounds like your friend is taking. 

 

He is now in a very good international school making about 25 000 - 30 000 RMB per month and very happy. 

expatlife26:

Was it really a big change back around 08? I came in late 09.

 

Wonder if that had to do with the financial crisis? Kinda like something where when the economy was good being a esl teacher was a choice made by somebody who just wanted to travel and take it easy.

 

but when the economy got bad it was seen more as something people were forced into doing. Like you had to do it cause you were desperate kinda thing.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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Robk:

@expatlife26: Yeah, that had a lot to do with it. A lot of foreigners came to China and admitted they couldn't find a job back home. 

 

This only made the other foreigners look down on the English teachers and the Chinese realized not all foreigners were the same. 

9 years 14 weeks ago
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dongbeiren:

It is certainly true that some English teachers come to China because they can't find jobs back home. Others come for adventure, language learning, a relaxing lifestyle, travel opportunities, cheap beer, womanizing and many other reasons. And coming to China because one can't find a job back home isn't really something to be looked down on in my opinion - those people are making the best of their situation and trying to improve their lives. I've met people here who were pretty down and out back home who have pulled themselves up by teaching in China and live in comfortable apartments, go on cool vacations and have built a modest savings. It's not glamorous but it deserves a hell of a lot more respect than 26 year old Johnny sitting in mommy's basement playing xbox and working at the store part time or the 10%+ of Americans who rely on food stamps to make ends meet. 

9 years 14 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@dongbeiren

 

In my two years in China I've worked with two foreigners who are clearly the dross of their respective societies. What is interesting is that if visa protocol in China was properly followed neither of them would actually have gotten work.

 

The first guy was from Canada and he was a heroin addict and an alcoholic who got rowdy and violent after just two or three bottles of Chinese beer. He would scream and yell at his girlfriend in their apartment to the extent that it caused his neighbours to complain to his boss. He once missed 17 lessons in one month, but because he was in his mid forties, had a loud voice and talked all the time about fighting, lots of the people in Hunan thought he was some kind of real man with leadership charisma or some bullshit like that.

 

The second guy was from Brazil and he was the worst kind of pseudo-intellectual I've ever met. He also loved to talk about how big his muscles were during company dinners. He claimed to be able to speak Spanish but he didn't even go to university. He spread rumours about all of the other teachers, which were complete fabrications, but the school did nothing, perhaps because this sort of behaviour is considered Chinese realpoliticking or something like that.

 

He came over on the bitch visa (his wife was a teacher, not him) but one of the shareholders was a party member and a former ambassador to Brazil. He pulled some strings to let the guy teach. Lots of the students liked him because none of his courses were even remotely challenging, so they got to get their pieces of paper from the degree mill with no effort.

 

Between 2003 and 2008 when I first left school I worked in engineering and computer programming. I have no formal qualifications in either, but I went to university to study English literature and history because I hoped to become a journalist if not a teacher. My motivation for getting these qualifications was to possibly open up doors to vocations or work for businesses which deliberately contrived not to employ trashy people. The kinds who brag about sexual conquests which definitely didn't actually happen and talk about money all of the time. I had to work with plenty of them before.

 

I don't make that much money now, but thankfully I have a lot of free time, and I don't have to deal with the plonkers I used to have to deal with.

 

If I didn't have my girlfriend here, I would have left ages ago and never looked back. I've never met so many crass idiots until I came here.

 

How anyone can elevate a purveyor of chocolate coated confectionery with a plastic toy in the centre over a properly qualified English teacher and not be considered an absolute shite himself is baffling.

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Masters degrees in subjects like education are BS btw.

Not as bad as the course content of an MBA though. Seriously, it's the kind of shit for people who read self-help books.

 

Breaking down the old trade barriers has resulted in people whose natural station is in a factory putting on a suit and coming to Asia after getting a credential whose real value is about that of bog roll.

 

I know correlation is not causation, but isn't it interesting to note how much property prices have skyrocketed since the dumbing down of the schools, the commercialization of universities and the inevitable lowering of standards in majors like business, HR management and information systems.

 

It's only natural that such shitheads would choose to come to a place like China which is filled with simpletons who love money too much. In countries with even damaged albeit recovering (thanks to the internet) education systems, these dickheads are regarded as classless pariahs who suck the real wealth out of the economy second only to lawyers.

coineineagh:

/i agree that education and intellectualism in general has been neglected over the years in favour of brain-dead economic 'stability'. But your last paragraph seems to equate teachers to the worst parasite of the lot.. sucking wealth out of the system, seriously? any idea how difficult it is to send money home with a FT salary? Businessmen are free to send 5+ figure sums abroad free of charge, but OH! a teacher wants to send some hard-earned savings home. he's sucking the wealth out of the system!!! - call the national guard, change the banking rules, it's the start of armageddon... get a grip.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@coin

 

Not foreign teachers. I'm a foreign teacher. I'm talking about businesspeople as the worst scum of the lot.

 

We're trying to spread the enlightenment but we're armed with a flutterboard and facing a giant wave of philistinism.

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I haven't found English teaching in China to be a particularly easy way to make a living, but it's a thankless task and the difficulties go ignored or unrecognized. We're on the forefront of cultural clashes, and get to see the mistakes Chinese education inflicts on its people in their formative years. I've been forced to devlop deeper levels of patience and tolerance than could reasonably be expected of a person, but it has helped me in my family life. My family is what keeps me tied to the teaching profession here, and what keeps me here in China for that matter. I'm surprisingly well-suited to the teaching duties, and have never had serious work complaints. I disagree with the transient aspect mentioned: Schools value teachers who are liked, and teachers who leave often cost them students. The longer you stay, the more you are appreciated and the better your coping routine becomes, though there is no sign of any real investment in foreign teachers.

dongbeiren:

I wasn't suggesting that all teachers are transients. Obviously you're a family man with roots here. My point was that a lot of people view English teachers as transients who move from country to country with few possessions or worries. And a lot of people look down on that. I'm not saying that all English teachers are transients or that transients should be looked down on for that matter. I was just trying to explain why English teachers get a bad rap from my perspective. 

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http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463

 

Here are the real dregs of globalization.

expatlife26:

I gotta ask you again why you're pursuing a business degree if that's how you feel about it.

 

Believe me I think it's a great move and i'm still curious if you're doing it remotely from a western school or going to a program at a local uni. I went the online route...gone well so far.

 

It just seems like you have kind of a bad attitude about it. Just because someone speaks in jargon, even if it's annoying they still might be a good person who would be able to help you. You're setting yourself up for failure thinking that everyone working in business is a pos.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with engaging in commerce. My problem with it is the same issue I mentioned earlier about declining academic and standards of conduct in general. Producing wealth and developing economies which enhance general prosperity couldn't be a nobler pursuit.

 

However, the last 30 or so years have just been a mad gold rush. Tacky commodities produced in third world countries with shocking human rights records and backward political institutions combined with the empowerment of the kinds of people who have "social intelligence" and charisma over actual problem solving skills and a sense of fairness and proportion has completed poisoned the commercial environment. I know of loads of people who've gotten in, made their money and then gotten out saying that they couldn't stand making idiotic transactions anymore. It never used to be like that, did it?

 

I am taking the online route also. I think your comments about my attitude are completely reasonable, however the work is so damned easy that I can't help but get high grades for it anyhow. I do actually read it and make sure I grasp the meaning of the terminology but it lacks the profundity of philosophy and the sciences, that's for sure.

 

It is accounting and economics which interest me. I find the other aspects of a business major to be so facile that it's cathartic to mock and take the piss out of people who think that kind of drivel is stimulating and compelling to listen to. Perhaps you feel the same inclination once you've finished reading a pile of complete toss about communication. That seems to be the one aspect of business studies which is the most fraught with nonsense.

 

I know you're doing an MBA so it's a different story. Believe me, I've no intention of judging your choices, though for what it's worth I think you're undergoing what seems to be a very wise move, but consider this: there are a lot of people with bachelor level commerce degrees who avoided the challenging majors of economics and accounting in favour of HR management and management theory. The two latter majors I've mentioned are no signifier of a person's aptitude in business at all, but there are plenty of people who are employed in positions of power and influence if not solely on the basis of those credentials, then as a result of getting their foot in the door with them and moving up the corporate ladder simply by being some kind of endearing yobbo who fits in with all of the other dickheads. I've seen this first hand. This is how I've come to form this opinion of business in general. It isn't a judgement of the notion of business itself, just how it has manifested under contemporary social and academic conditions. Are you not worried that you'll have to be subordinate to these kinds of people if you make a career change from teaching to business at the age of thirty?

 

Anyhow, it's kind of you to be so concerned about the affect business studies will have on my sanity, but my end goals are rather humble. I don't know if I can hope to make six figures. High fives would be nice.

 

I actually spend some time considering studying geology in light of what you mentioned earlier. I love science, philosophy and literature. I think I'll just end up with another degree which is under appreciated in this era of history.

 

I would like to become a chartered accountant eventually. I know people who work in accounting and economic fields and they're good sorts. They have minds and just get on with their jobs. I'm like you, I want to be able to solve practical problems and not have to go for some kind of team-building toss where I need to put on a blindfold and have a bunch of corporate drones try to catch me when I throw myself backwards off the chair.

 

Sorry about taking a while to respond to you. Better late than never, huh?

9 years 14 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

Thanks for getting back to me. Yeah believe me i'm not trying to take you down a peg or anything you have every right to think people who talk in jargon are obnoxious!

 

Chartered accountant is a good goal, I actually like accounting as well. It's grounded, it's real...for the most part. Kinda like just putting a puzzle together. There also is a really high floor for what a CA (CPA in the US) makes...tons of roles in compliance and reporting REQUIRE a CPA and those all pay 65-70K at the low end. More than enough for a solid life anywhere but NYC, Boston or SF.

 

My personal interest is history. A bunch of my friends are into this podcast series called Hardcore History, we'll listen to these deep shows about random indepth history topics and talk about them for hours. Love it. Get good book recommendations from that show as well.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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One who goes to University and gets a teaching degree AND registers with an accredited body and keeps that registration current is considered a teacher.  People who take a 2 week course or are just native speakers are not really teachers.  China hires a lot of "teachers" that  are not really teachers and have no idea what they are doing.  

laowaigentleman:

In Australia and New Zealand, Teachers Training College is basically a liberal/socialist indoctrination centre. TECOL in New Zealand is a nest of Labour Party academic throwback dinosaurs waiting for a government sinecure. They're the absolute caricatures of ideological dogmatism - unemployable, insular, obscurantist, self-reinforcing and self-perpetuating. Complete deadwood.

 

I got a post graduate teaching certificate so I didn't have to attend daily and listen to their incessant drivel.

 

There are people with degrees in western countries whose friends and families wrote their papers for them. Because the teaching major is largely internally assessed, the content is very dumbed down as the school's intentions are to keep bums on seats so they can meet the government targets of newly qualified teachers and keep the money flowing in from both the students and the government.

 

One guy studied politics (another super easy subject) and failed his last essay because the lady who usually writes them for him went on holiday to Fiji.

 

It was quite funny because the essays she wrote were so good and his exam results were so terrible. With a weighting of 40% for the essay and 60% for the examination, she carried the retard over the mark for 4 entire years. He was able to pass the teaching major without too much difficulty when he couldn't even write a politics essay by himself.

 

Now he's a registered teacher in New Zealand blindly leading the blind. Thankfully the education system there is now being reformed, but the value of education as a major is still highly over-estimated by too many people. This is a consequence of the commercialization of universities and the introduction of the profit motive as a metric for ascertaining the value of knowledge and the ability to further acquire it which can't be commoditized in the first place.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

@laowai

 

"basically a liberal/socialist indoctrination centre. TECOL in New Zealand is a nest of Labour Party academic throwback dinosaurs waiting for a government sinecure. They're the absolute caricatures of ideological dogmatism - unemployable, insular, obscurantist, self-reinforcing and self-perpetuating. Complete deadwood."

 

Now who's talking in jargon!?

 

9 years 14 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

@ expat.

 

Is that really jargon?

 

 

9 years 14 weeks ago
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jetfire9000:

When I saw the comment about buss ness people speaking in jargon, the first thing I thought of was the 80's businessman from Futurama.   If you haven't seen it, just search for "Futurama 80's businessman."  

9 years 14 weeks ago
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expatlife26:

I do think those comments are pretty jargony...that doesn't make them incorrect but you did choose language which shows off a broad vocabulary instead of making the comments accessible. Nothing wrong with that, just something to be aware of. 

 

Wish you all the best with your program...I hope you learn that most corporate types are decent hardworking folk.

 

Nothing inherently wicked about success, nor righteous about poverty. And vice versa.

9 years 13 weeks ago
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I know know a number of people that went to teachers college in Australia or New Zealand because it is very easy to get in and they were not accepted in their home country.

laowaigentleman:

That's not to say that the pre-requisites for entry into them aren't sound, it's just that the content isn't particularly helpful. Maybe 20% is useful stuff and 80% is ideological gibberish.

 

Mind you, hearing ideological gibberish prepares you very well for coming to China.

9 years 14 weeks ago
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laowaigentleman:

So they got student visas to study as foreign students to study a subject they weren't able to meet the pre-requisites for in their home countries?

 

At least they didn't try for it in China. Imagine what they'd learn here: scream at the students for half of the time and then scrowl at them if they can't recite Confucius properly.

 

Assessment sample: A teacher should never:

 

A. Eat during class

B. Sleep during class

C. Yell in enclosed spaces

D. Do all of the above

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I'm so tired of teaching here

I got my BA in Russian with a minor in linguistics

Nobody cares

I got a CELTA

Nobody cares

I studied Chinese a little

Nobody cares

My Chinese girlfriend is getting an MA in App Lingg

She doesn't care

I've been teaching ESL since 2007

Nobody cares

They don't want ESL teachers, they want to stroke their damn ego, and ignore everything that has happened since the end of the audio lingual method.

They don't care

English is a joke

I don't care

Merry Christmas Sykki!

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people judge and they will always do.indecision

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A:  "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "S
A: "... through ..."?  Only "through" comes to mind is "Shenzhen agent can connect you with an employer, who's authorized to hire waigouren ... and can sponsor Z visa." It's not like every 10th person you meet in Shenzhen's hood can sponsor work visa ...  The only way to change from student to labourer visa is just a regular way by: 1. Finding an employer, who'll apply for an Invitation letter; 2. Exit China and apply for Z visa in your home country's Chinese embassy; 3. Enter China in 30-days after Z visa was stamped into your travelling instrument ...As I am aware, you won't be able to switch to Working permit by remaining in China....,so make ready for a return to your home .... -- icnif77